Proper Course

[Scott T-Bird]

Choice was to push up and deal with a protest for a decision or drop down and sail to the mark. On a close reach there was no advantage to sail above the mark (push you up).

You are misunderstanding ... if Mark was aiming at the mark and the J105 was below Mark, then J105 was on a bearing below the mark. He had only 2 choices, either assume the leeward rights and push Mark out of the way, or slow down to sail around Mark and pass Mark on the windward side (the slower option). In my opinion, J105 made the wrong decision ... there is no such thing as rights for "proper course" in this situation. There is only windward/leeward and J105 had leeward rights. How can you say "proper course" when you are half a mile away from the mark? It doesn't make any sense. It seems to me that Mark bluffed a call and J105 blew it.

 

[shemandr]

And I would disagree. If the Hunter is laying the mark then surely the J105 is. Yes things can change but at that moment in time they were on their proper courses.
The J105 would have to sail above her proper course to luff the Hunter. Note that the definition of Proper Course stipulates that it is determined as if their are no other boats nearby. So if a protest hearing were held the J105 would have to sell the jury the notion that if the Hunter were laying the mark but the J105 needed to sail higher. I wouldn't want to do that.
To bumper sticker this: You can't pass a slower boat and then take them up. That's what the rule means.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

And I would disagree. If the Hunter is laying the mark then surely the J105 is. Yes things can change but at that moment in time they were on their proper courses.
The J105 would have to sail above her proper course to luff the Hunter. Note that the definition of Proper Course stipulates that it is determined as if their are no other boats nearby. So if a protest hearing were held the J105 would have to sell the jury the notion that if the Hunter were laying the mark but the J105 needed to sail higher. I wouldn't want to do that.
To bumper sticker this: You can't pass a slower boat and then take them up. That's what the rule means.

I disagree ... if Mark is laying the mark, then the J105 has to be below the mark if they are on parallel courses. Since they were reaching, J105 proper course is to turn up just enough to lay the mark. Under Rule 17, J105 is allowed to make his "proper course" ("whichever direction will get you to the next mark as quickly as possible") and his proper course dictates that he must adjust upwind just enough to lay the mark (exactly where Mark was). J105 would not be allowed to turn upwind more than necessary to lay the mark.

In this situation - because they are on a reach, J105 actually has both "proper course and leeward rule in his favor. The purpose of "proper course" is basically to prevent a close-hauled boat from luffing at just the right instant and use momentum to force another boat off their course. This is not the case. They are reaching and the "proper course" for the J105 actually applies for him (not Mark) because he needs to adjust upwind to lay the mark, and he can do so without luffing. If he had to luff to force Mark off line, then it would be a different story. Rule 17 actually works to J105 advantage in this instance because they were reaching. If they were close-hauled, then Mark would have a case, because the J105 may have had to luff (sail above "proper course") to displace Mark.

There is no reason to believe that the J105, while adjusting to lay the mark, would have continued above the mark. He surely would have had intention to adjust directly at the mark as soon as he forced his way out from under the dirty air that Mark was burdening him with.

"Proper course" is not an excuse to unburden Mark from windward/leeward rules. Windward/leeward is the only rule that applies to Mark in this instance, and Mark must give way.

 

[PaulK]

And I would disagree. If the Hunter is laying the mark then surely the J105 is. Yes things can change but at that moment in time they were on their proper courses.
The J105 would have to sail above her proper course to luff the Hunter. Note that the definition of Proper Course stipulates that it is determined as if their are no other boats nearby. So if a protest hearing were held the J105 would have to sell the jury the notion that if the Hunter were laying the mark but the J105 needed to sail higher. I wouldn't want to do that.
To bumper sticker this: You can't pass a slower boat and then take them up. That's what the rule means.

But you can pass a slower boat by heading higher than them, making them head up higher than they were initially. If the Hunter is laying the mark, and the J/105 is to leeward of them, then the J/105 HAS to head higher than the Hunter in order to clear the mark. Other reasons - like polars, and current, and puffs apparent on the water's surface - could also make the J/105's proper course higher than the Hunter's. The Hunter's proper course has no bearing in this encounter. The J/105's does. The Hunter (W) must keep clear.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

To bumper sticker this: You can't pass a slower boat and then take them up. That's what the rule means.

This point only applies to a case when boats are running and the windward boat passes the leeward boat. It is to prevent a passing boat from deliberately slowing down the new windward boat.

Another key point is that "proper course" does not apply to the windward boat. For the entire scenario that Mark describes, Mark is the windward boat. He does not get relief from Rule 17 because the rule does not apply for him. He is always the windward boat and is burdened by Rule 11. I found this in a case example ... "When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat's proper course, when two boats on the same tack converge, the windward boat must keep clear. Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another may have different proper courses."

 

[jssailem]

It seems to me that Mark bluffed a call and J105 blew it.

This may well have happened. It affirms my comment about the skippers playing a bit of poker.

Now what if the skipper of the 105 decided to protest. Would there be an argument for Mark.

I believe the following construct may apply to Mark's situation. It would give Mark something to tell the committee.

Figure 5. Where Rule 17 applies without an obstruction​

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Yellow, reaching faster clear astern becomes overlapped to leeward within two of her hull lengths to leeward of Green, so rule 17 applies to oblige Yellow not to sail above her proper course.​

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Rule 17, which is a referring to proper course, applies, so Yellow has a proper course.​

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Yellow wants to take advantage of her better boat speed to get further ahead of Green and gain good position for her mark-rounding. To do this Yellow's best course is to sail high, pushing Green further up to windward.​

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But sailing high to windward would not be Yellow's best course in the absence of Green. Thus Yellow's best course is not her proper course. If Yellow sails any higher than she would have to get to the mark as soon as possible, she breaks rule 17.​

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Of course, if a strong lift arrived, which Yellow wanted to follow up, or a right of way boat arrived that Yellow had to keep clear of, responding to these things by sailing high, would be Yellow's proper course.​

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I believe, when it is all said and done it is what the committee believes to be fair competition that defines the outcome. The rest are options available to the participants to use and apply their skills.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

I think Mark explains it best when the J105 had already made a bad mistake by starting to pass on the leeward side. That didn't make any sense when they could have passed on the windward side to begin with.

It would be interesting to understand exactly what Mark was thinking, when he called "proper course". Was he implying that he was on proper course or was he implying that J105 must adhere to proper course.

Good test case! I can see both points of view!

 

[DArcy]

Good discussions about rule 17. The answer to the question is a question - Did the J105 need to come up to lay the mark? If yes, they had rights to come up. I have an appeals book for the 2017 - 2020 rules which probably still applies. Here are some cases:

appeal 13—Different boats may have different proper courses at any given moment. When those proper courses conflict, the leeward boat subject to rule 17 is entitled to sail her proper course.

appeal 70—When about to pass a windward mark, a boat’s proper course may be to sail above close-hauled.

Case 7—When, after having been clear astern, a boat becomes overlapped to leeward within two of her hull lengths of the other boat, the windward boat must keep clear, but the leeward boat must initially give the windward boat room to keep clear and must not sail above her proper course. The proper course of the windward boat is not relevant.

Case 13—Before her starting signal, a leeward boat does not break a rule by sailing a course higher than the windward boat’s course.

Case 14—When, owing to a difference of opinion about a leeward boat’s proper course, two boats on the same tack converge, the windward boat must keep clear. Two boats on the same leg sailing near one another may have different proper courses.

Case 46—a leeward boat is entitled to luff to her proper course, even when she has established a leeward overlap from clear astern and within two of her hull lengths of the windward boat.

Case 134—a boat’s proper course at any moment depends on the existing conditions. Some of those conditions are the wind strength and direction, the pattern of gusts and lulls in the wind, the waves, the current, and the physical characteristics of the boat’s hull and equipment, including the sails she is using.

 

[Davidasailor26]

The more I read and think about this the more there is to unpack.

First - Proper Course isn't necessarily determined by just laying the mark. Lots of reasons could make a boat want to head above the mark early then drop down later. Current and wind changes are probably the most common. In general the fastest course is a straight line, but not necessarily always.

The other consideration is that the definition of Proper Course is about disregarding the "other boats referred to in the boats using the term", which is not necessarily all other boats. For example, if the J had another boat on her lee bow she might want to climb more to get out of the bad air off her lee bow. That third boat is not one of the boats being referred to in the Rule 17 question, so avoiding that boat's bad air would still be following proper course for the purposes of Mark and the J.

Good find by @Scott T-Bird in the case book. Case 14 for anyone else looking. That's a very good example of a situation where L's proper course might be higher than you'd expect just looking at the lay lines.

If the J approached from more or less directly behind Mark and chose to pass to leeward then I don't think that's as dramatic as Case 14. If there were a strategic reason to get farther to windward then the J would have done that sooner, before overtaking. Still, the wording of that decision that "the windward boat must keep clear" would put a pretty heavy burden on Mark if he didn't.

 

[shemandr]

I have to admit appeal 46 seems to go against my case.
If a boat passed me to leeward and then took my up they would be risking a flare gun take down of their fancy laminate jib.

 

[jssailem]

appeal 13—Different boats may have different proper courses at any given moment. When those proper courses conflict, the leeward boat subject to rule 17 is entitled to sail her proper course.

We have been asked to address the actions of an SBO sailor. Not to create any other conditions, what if's, other possibilites
- Not Relevent info
- Relevent Info

• Just the other day I was
• headed for the windward mark
• on a not so square course such that
• I was reaching
• rather than close hauled
• Along came a very nice
• J-105 on my leeward side
• and tried to bring me up claiming leeward rights.
• I politely but assertively claimed proper course
• I was fetching the mark
• for them to bring me up they would have to sail above proper course.
• That backed them off
• but the questions is: was I right?

It appears that the J-105 would not be sailing the proper course if he/she wants to claim leeward rights and sail at a higher angle. Why? because when "assertively" challenged by claim of "Proper Course" the J-105 chose to not change course and backed off.

The rights were with the J-105 and they continue to exist under Rule 17 as long as the J-105 maintains proper course. Mark could not sail down onto the J-105 and if Mark did not yield as the J-105 came up the discussion before the committee would be did the J-105 have and Maintain proper course at the time a protest event is stated to have occurred.

I have not heard of any rules that penalize a skipper for shouting out rules. Whether they are correct or not.
It is the duty of the protesting boat to identify the infraction and the circumstances that entitled them.

 

[shemandr]

. The rights were with the J-105 and they continue to exist under Rule 17 as long as the J-105 maintains proper course. Mark could not sail down onto the J-105 and if Mark did not yield as the J-105 came up the discussion before the committee would be did the J-105 have and Maintain proper course at the time a protest event is stated to have occurred.

No one said the Hunter sailed down on the J105. The Hunter was on course to the mark and not close hauled. The J105 was effectively on the same course. They were passing the Hunter. No rights to sail above their proper course until they've cleared ahead or pass behind.

 

[BarryL]

Hey,

Some (late) comments from me:
It is very difficult for you to determine what proper course is for another boat. Are they sailing high because they expect a wind shift, to get into a favorable position relative to current or waves at the mark, to get into clear air? Those are all valid reasons for sailing higher than you think they should be

Communication is the key. They started to take them up. You have them a reason why you didn’t want to go up. They could ignore you, protest you, or just forget it and sail on. Many (most) racers don’t want the hassle of protesting and would just as soon forget a minor transgression.

Personally, when I feel a fellow racer has made a mistake i try to overlook it during the race and i try to find them at the party so we can review the situation.

Last fall I was in a race, no spin class. We were sailing downwind, whisker pole out. Another boat didn’t have a whisker pole so they had a crewman standing on the bow, using a boat hook to hold the headsail out. This violates the rules “when in use it shal be attached to the foremost mast.” We hailed the boat and told him he was breaking the rules. He ignored us. I didn’t protest and we just kept racing.

Barry

 

[Sandy Stone]

This point only applies to a case when boats are running and the windward boat passes the leeward boat. It is to prevent a passing boat from deliberately slowing down the new windward boat.

While I agree with the rest of your post, where did you get this from? The rule says nothing about what point of sail the boats are on.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

While I agree with the rest of your post, where did you get this from? The rule says nothing about what point of sail the boats are on.

I was looking at examples of how the rule is applied and one of the examples showed a pair of boats on a run (with spinnakers). The passing boat sailed to leeward of the slower boat, got out in front and then turned upwind to further slow the other boat down and cause them to alter course from a run to a reach. The example was to show a violation on the part of the faster boat. That's pretty much how I was interpreting Andy's comment, rightfully or wrongfully, I couldn't tell you for sure!

What is interesting to me about this case is obviously the ambiguousness of the term "proper course". If the 2 boats are half mile from the mark, they are virtually running parallel, but strictly speaking, they can't be parallel. Therefore, without a change in course and at similar speeds, they would have to converge at the mark, which would involve a different rule, whereby Mark would have to provide room for J105 at the mark. But here's the sticking point. We assume that J105 would be a faster boat. Why didn't J105 simply sail on course a little while longer and pass clear ahead of Mark? I'm thinking that Mark's dirty air was the vexing problem for J105. The sooner he could clear ahead of Mark the better, therefore he needed to head Mark up and assert leeward rights. But that puts "proper course" in question because it isn't necessarily the course that J105 would take if Mark wasn't there (it's more of a gray area). J105 could have avoided all question, simply by drifting to leeward on his course just far enough to clear the 2 boat-length demarcation, then he would have unquestioned rights to assert leeward when he subsequently headed upwind (that was another example).

In the end, the communications worked in Mark's favor, probably because J105 first put himself in a bad situation, and then he didn't know how to handle it. (I don't blame him - it's an ambiguous rule, I think!)

 

[jssailem]

the communications worked in Mark's favor, probably because J105 first put himself in a bad situation, and then he didn't know how to handle it.

I believe we arrived, at least in my mind, at the same conclusion.

 

[Sandy Stone]

I'm thinking that Mark's dirty air was the vexing problem for J105. The sooner he could clear ahead of Mark the better, therefore he needed to head Mark up and assert leeward rights. But that puts "proper course" in question because it isn't necessarily the course that J105 would take if Mark wasn't there (it's more of a gray area).

That's pretty much my interpretation, too. (Without having been there, of course.) If I was on a protest committee, and the only time the leeward boat felt his proper course was higher than the windward boat's was when they were overlapped, I would be pretty skeptical. No idea if that was the exact scenario in the OP. At any rate, I'm glad it was handled on the water and not in the protest room.

 

[PaulK]

That's pretty much my interpretation, too. (Without having been there, of course.) If I was on a protest committee, and the only time the leeward boat felt his proper course was higher than the windward boat's was when they were overlapped, I would be pretty skeptical. No idea if that was the exact scenario in the OP. At any rate, I'm glad it was handled on the water and not in the protest room.

This is why the leeward boat should make sure that they have been holding a steady course - their proper course - over the entire approach to and passing of the windward boat. Leeward CANNOT head higher than that without "she promptly sails astern of the other boat." Earlier posts have made the point that if she is to leeward of Windward, who is fetching the mark, Leeward's proper course to round the mark HAS to be higher than Windward's. Otherwise they'd be sailing parallel courses and leeward would pass below the mark when they got there. Her proper course does not have to be a compass course. It could also be a point of sail that Leeward moves fast on, with her sails set to optimize her speed. Her proper course could change while she is overlapped with Windward -- the wind could change direction, for example, making the leg a beat. Or it could drop, calling for a different heading to account for current. Unless Leeward makes a sudden big change in heading, Windward would have a hard time proving Leeward was not on her proper course.

 

[TimFromLI]

If both boats were reaching, they were both sailing straight to the mark which is their proper course. Since the OP said the leeward boat was to port and marks are generally rounded to port, and they were on the windward leg, the leeward boat would have been inside at the mark and if still overlapped within two boat lengths of that mark, could have demanded buoy room. I think that's all leeward could hope for. Since they were reaching, the leeward boat had options before overtaking the Hunter and should never have sailed into the wind shadow of the bigger boat. He must have realized his mistake and headed off.

 

[Davidasailor26]

If both boats were reaching, they were both sailing straight to the mark which is their proper course.

Not necessarily - proper course is the fastest course to sail the course, which may or may not be pointing straight at it.

if still overlapped within two boat lengths of that mark, could have demanded buoy room.

The zone is now 3 boat lengths, not 2.