Just the other day I was headed for the windward mark on a not so square course such that I was reaching rather than close hauled. Along came a very nice J-105 on my leeward side and tried to bring me up claiming leeward rights. I politely but assertively claimed proper course as I was fetching the mark and, therefore, for them to bring me up they would have to sail above proper course. That backed them off but the questions is: was I right?
Proper Course
- Thread starter markwbird
- Start date
How close were you to the mark? It has been a while since I raced, however, I recall there are some rules about overlaps and room at the mark. If I recall correctly once the other boat establishes an overlap and enters the 2 boat length circle it is necessary to give it room to clear the mark.
I haven't gone to the RRS so this response is from my working knowledge of the RRS or lack thereof:
A boat overtaking another boat is obligated to keep clear. Therefore, I believe, you were correct in resisting the the taking up maneuver.
I don't know if proper course has anything to do with it or not. But the proper course for a J105 and a Hunter 34 wouldn't necessarily be the same. Maybe the J105 wanted to and could sail higher. In that situation they could hail you to sail proper course but you were. I'm assuming you weren't in the same class.
My question is why a boat passing you would bother to take you up. It isn't in that boats interest to slow itself down and lose PHRF time. His best action would be to pass you as fast as possible and then sail whatever course he wanted.
Boats that are being passed on the windward side will often take up the passing boat in order to try to keep their air clear. If the J105 were passing me to windward ,and I was sailing a Hunter 34, I might make some half hearted attempt to fend them off but ultimately they are going to pass anyway. And, for me, the faster the better. Less damage than screwing around with them.
A boat overtaking another boat is obligated to keep clear. Therefore, I believe, you were correct in resisting the the taking up maneuver.
I don't know if proper course has anything to do with it or not. But the proper course for a J105 and a Hunter 34 wouldn't necessarily be the same. Maybe the J105 wanted to and could sail higher. In that situation they could hail you to sail proper course but you were. I'm assuming you weren't in the same class.
My question is why a boat passing you would bother to take you up. It isn't in that boats interest to slow itself down and lose PHRF time. His best action would be to pass you as fast as possible and then sail whatever course he wanted.
Boats that are being passed on the windward side will often take up the passing boat in order to try to keep their air clear. If the J105 were passing me to windward ,and I was sailing a Hunter 34, I might make some half hearted attempt to fend them off but ultimately they are going to pass anyway. And, for me, the faster the better. Less damage than screwing around with them.
If he takes the windward boat up and then falls off quickly he can pass faster.
It is allowable to take a boat up before the start line and it is a common starting strategy, take the windward boat up, he luffs, you keep sailing with better speed. It can cause a domino effect with several boats, the most windward boat may be forced to tack away from the start to avoid hitting the committee boat.
I don't think it matters who had what boat, what class, starting sequence, or close to the mark, either. Close to the mark is a rounding issue, different than the question was, it seems to me. Which was: sailing to a mark ona reach with a close hauled boat coming up from leeward.
I wish Jackdaw was still around.
I wish Jackdaw was still around.
According to the RRS definitions: Proper Course A course a boat would choose in order to sail the course and finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.
In this case, you were certainly sailing your proper course. The J/105's proper course, however, would likely be different from yours. In order to go faster on a reach they might head 10º higher than you. What happens then?
The rule that pertains in this situation is rule 17:
ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack andoverlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
Rule 13 involves boats that are tacking, which does not seem to apply here. So... the interpretation of the rule depends on how the overlap was established. Were they overlapped while well to leeward and worked their way to windward, closer and closer? Or did the J/105 come up essentially from behind you, within two boatlengths? If the former, they could head you up head to wind if they wanted. If the second, they have to maintain THEIR proper course - "in the absence of the other boats referred to in th rule using the term". It's as if your boat wasn't there. Your proper course has nothing to do with this situation. They are leeward boat and you, as windward, must keep clear. If their proper course is 10º higher than yours, they can head 10º higher than you, and you have to keep clear. They can't head higher than their proper course, (or they'd have to promptly sail astern of you), but the fact that they're going past you is proof that they're trying to finish as soon as possible and are on their proper course, even if YOU think they might be overstanding.
This happened to us in a race, where we were the leeward boat, reaching towards a mark in our J/36 and passing a Sabre 362 within two boatlengths. (Don't know how they got ahead of us. Maybe a staggered/pursuit start?) Like you, they didn't want to alter course above THEIR proper course, and protested us. I knew the rule, ignored the yelling, and passed him. They withdrew their protest when the protest committee explained to them that they were in the wrong. You are lucky the J/105 skipper wasn't up on his rules.
In this case, you were certainly sailing your proper course. The J/105's proper course, however, would likely be different from yours. In order to go faster on a reach they might head 10º higher than you. What happens then?
The rule that pertains in this situation is rule 17:
ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack andoverlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
Rule 13 involves boats that are tacking, which does not seem to apply here. So... the interpretation of the rule depends on how the overlap was established. Were they overlapped while well to leeward and worked their way to windward, closer and closer? Or did the J/105 come up essentially from behind you, within two boatlengths? If the former, they could head you up head to wind if they wanted. If the second, they have to maintain THEIR proper course - "in the absence of the other boats referred to in th rule using the term". It's as if your boat wasn't there. Your proper course has nothing to do with this situation. They are leeward boat and you, as windward, must keep clear. If their proper course is 10º higher than yours, they can head 10º higher than you, and you have to keep clear. They can't head higher than their proper course, (or they'd have to promptly sail astern of you), but the fact that they're going past you is proof that they're trying to finish as soon as possible and are on their proper course, even if YOU think they might be overstanding.
This happened to us in a race, where we were the leeward boat, reaching towards a mark in our J/36 and passing a Sabre 362 within two boatlengths. (Don't know how they got ahead of us. Maybe a staggered/pursuit start?) Like you, they didn't want to alter course above THEIR proper course, and protested us. I knew the rule, ignored the yelling, and passed him. They withdrew their protest when the protest committee explained to them that they were in the wrong. You are lucky the J/105 skipper wasn't up on his rules.
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The relevant rule is 17 - ON THE SAME TACK; PROPER COURSE
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
So, assuming he caught you from behind and not too far downwind I think you were right Year he didn’t have rights to run you up.
Edit: @PaulK gave a much more detailed answer while I was typing. I agree with his interpretation. Still, if your hail was just “proper course” and not “I’m on my proper course” you could still be right. Since the limitation is his proper course, by simply hailing “proper course” you could just be reminding him of his obligation, at which point he realized he needed to disengage. If you hailed “I’m on my proper course” he could continue up claiming his proper course was higher.
If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above her proper course while they remain on the same tack and overlapped within that distance, unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is required by rule 13 to keep clear.
So, assuming he caught you from behind and not too far downwind I think you were right Year he didn’t have rights to run you up.
Edit: @PaulK gave a much more detailed answer while I was typing. I agree with his interpretation. Still, if your hail was just “proper course” and not “I’m on my proper course” you could still be right. Since the limitation is his proper course, by simply hailing “proper course” you could just be reminding him of his obligation, at which point he realized he needed to disengage. If you hailed “I’m on my proper course” he could continue up claiming his proper course was higher.
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No. Leeward's rights to head up are limited to HIS proper course, (unless he wants to "promptly sail astern of the other boat") but the windward boat still has to keep clear otherwise.
@Stu Jackson, Clarity? We're talking racing rules and you expect clarity?My head's spinning.
Clarity. Please.
No matter what W hails (and no hail is necessary here, in any case) W is still obligated to keep clear of L so long as L is sailing HIS proper course. Reminding L that he has to keep to his proper course is fine, but it does not mean that L needs to disengage or head off at all. L can continue on HIS proper course, whatever it is, and W has to continue to keep clear. L cannot head above her proper course without "she promptly sails astern of the other boat." Proving that L was heading higher than her proper course would be difficult, as mentioned before. The fact that L is passing W by heading higher than W shows that the higher course IS L's proper course. This situation is actually quite clear.
Perhaps a definition of "proper course" would be helpful? If W was laying the mark on a reach, then of course anybody who was coming up from leeward, by definition I would think, be in a boat that could sail closer to the wind. If that's the case, are you saying that regardless of the course W had to steer to make the mark, AND even if W could actually sail (and point) as well as L could but W didn't need to because he was laying the mark, that L still could force W off?
In that case it's simply one of a leeward boat coming up on a windward boat on the same tack, isn't it?
Then the question becomes one of between windward/leeward vs. overtaking, doesn't it?
Just trying to learn.
In that case it's simply one of a leeward boat coming up on a windward boat on the same tack, isn't it?
Then the question becomes one of between windward/leeward vs. overtaking, doesn't it?
Just trying to learn.
The crucial point is how the overlap was achieved - if the leeward boat initially became overlapped (see that definition) from a distance of more than two boatlengths laterally, she can do what she wants and the windward boat must keep clear. On the other hand, if leeward became overlapped within two boatlengths, then she can sail no higher than her proper course. Which begs the question, if the windward boat is fetching the mark, how could sailing higher allow the leeward boat to complete the course sooner if no other boats were present ( definition of proper course)?
Of course, if the boats were within 3 (not 2!) lengths of the mark, an entirely different rule applies, and proper course does not enter into it.
Of course, if the boats were within 3 (not 2!) lengths of the mark, an entirely different rule applies, and proper course does not enter into it.
Lots of discussion here about lots of different things. Back to the question: I was fetching the windward mark on a reach because the course was not square. The J-105 was trying to pass me to leeward less that a boat length from my port side and yes, I know this was an error on their part. Since I was headed directly for the mark (still 1/2 mile away) they would have to head high of the mark to bring me up, thus not sailing towards the mark which they would not do if I was not there. They claimed leeward rights. I claimed proper course. They eventually figured out that all they had to do was fall off and blew past me. We did correct over them in the end.
Proper Course is defined as “A course a boat would choose in order to sail the course and finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term…”
Note that a proper course is not necessarily the shortest course or a straight course to the mark. As PaulK suggests, L could come up with any reason to claim that their proper course was higher than the straight line to the mark that W was sailing. Maybe their polars dictate that sailing higher is faster. Maybe they saw a puff up ahead favoring the Windward side. Maybe they saw a funny set of waves suggesting a brief point up would be better. Etc.
Bottom line is that you committed no foul by hailing about proper course, but he was under no obligation to bear off just because of your hail. He could’ve kept driving up and tried to prove in the protest room that he was on his proper course. If it were me I probably would’ve done what you did - communication can help in a lot of spots. If he takes it as a helpful reminder of the rule then everything is good. If he says he’s on his proper course, or ignores and keeps coming up, then you just need to keep clear and decide whether you want to try a protest.
I think you got away with an infraction. Windward / leeward that's it. Just because you were aiming at the mark from half a mile away has nothing to do with proper course. He was on proper course, too, and in your wind shadow. I'm pretty sure I would have pushed you windward to get out of your shadow and not respected your red flag, if you pulled it out.
Think of it this way ... if you are aiming at the mark on reach or close- hauled (it doesn't matter), and the other boat is below you to leeward, he can either sail parallel to try to pass in your wind shadow, or he can push you upwind so that he can then sail his proper course to the mark. If I was frustrated with being trapped in your backwash, I would also push you windward (if I could) to get out of jail and it would be in my rights to do so. Keep in mind that if you both were close-hauled, he may not have been able to push you windward. But you were on reach ... this is no different than a starting situation. You can't hog a line just because ...
Think of it this way ... if you are aiming at the mark on reach or close- hauled (it doesn't matter), and the other boat is below you to leeward, he can either sail parallel to try to pass in your wind shadow, or he can push you upwind so that he can then sail his proper course to the mark. If I was frustrated with being trapped in your backwash, I would also push you windward (if I could) to get out of jail and it would be in my rights to do so. Keep in mind that if you both were close-hauled, he may not have been able to push you windward. But you were on reach ... this is no different than a starting situation. You can't hog a line just because ...
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jssailem
SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
- Oct 22, 2014
- 22,985
Mark, The idea of Proper Course would have to be a protest decision. Your described course vs the J105 course from the Lee to reach the mark. The rational for heading up.
You informed the boat of your rules understanding. The other boat considered your information and made his decision. Choice was to push up and deal with a protest for a decision or drop down and sail to the mark. On a close reach there was no advantage to sail above the mark (push you up).
Racing rules as I understand are about determining fair competition. Protests occur when sailors disagree about fair competition. Success at a protest is always in question in my mind (unless you have an edge with the committee).
From your posts it sounds like you both were playing a little poker and in this case you won.
No reason to dwell on the issue.
You informed the boat of your rules understanding. The other boat considered your information and made his decision. Choice was to push up and deal with a protest for a decision or drop down and sail to the mark. On a close reach there was no advantage to sail above the mark (push you up).
Racing rules as I understand are about determining fair competition. Protests occur when sailors disagree about fair competition. Success at a protest is always in question in my mind (unless you have an edge with the committee).
From your posts it sounds like you both were playing a little poker and in this case you won.
No reason to dwell on the issue.