Prop Chatter advice

[jonfreeman]

Question for RPWILIA - Did you leave the prop shaft attached when you "disconnected the transmission from the bell housing and pulled it away?" Based on the noise description, I believe I will have to do this repair. I spent all weekend wondering about what to do with the prop shaft.

I love the links and pics. Thanks to all.

Jon Freeman
Tacoma, WA

 

[rpwillia]

Disconnected the shaft

Question for RPWILIA - Did you leave the prop shaft attached when you "disconnected the transmission from the bell housing and pulled it away?" Based on the noise description, I believe I will have to do this repair. I spent all weekend wondering about what to do with the prop shaft.

I love the links and pics. Thanks to all.

Jon Freeman
Tacoma, WA

Jon, I had to first disconnect the shaft from the transmission and slid it with the coupling all the way back to the stuffing tube. Next I disconnected the 2 nuts that held the transmission shift plate on the starboard side off and loosened the shift lever there as well and slid the whole thing off to the side. Next I disconnected the 6 bolts that hold the transmission to the bell housing and slid the transmission straight back until it touched the short wall/lip at the back of the engine bilge. Then I was able to tile the transmission up and work it out aft past all the wires and hoses and over the stuffing tube. Then I was able to look inside the bell housing and see 1-2 of the 5 bolts (depending on where the crankshaft was rotated) that held the damper plate on. I was able to reach in and with a hex head on a ratchet with an extension was able to undo the bolts. I did have a friend show up at that point and using a ratchet on the front of the engine rotate the crankshaft so I could get to all 5 bolts. While removing the final bolt the old damper plate slid down and with a very slight rotation took the damper plate right out. That is about all of it.

I believe it took me longer to remove my R&D shaft coupler than anything else. I have taken my old coupler apart and except for the center part teeth all chewed away the damper plate internally was fine.

 

[jonfreeman]

Ray -

Thanks for the details! Sounds like a very do-able job. Reminds me of the old days when I did my own clutch and pressure plate repairs - except for the close quarters.

Jon

 

[Witzend]

So the polyethylene ribbon did not crack as it did on mine?
Why do you think your collar got chewed up then?

 

[rpwillia]

So the polyethylene ribbon did not crack as it did on mine? Why do you think your collar got chewed up then?

The polyethylene ribbon is fine. I have no idea why the collar got so chewed up, perhaps it was not a real tight fit from the beginning. From my perspective I like the design of the R&D unit, but it would be interesting to see what all the failures are. The guy in Seattle at MER Equipment was pretty knowledgeable and said they were decent units, but he only had the Sachs in stock anyway for $160 vice the $220 for the R&D. I will say the polyethylene ribbon is similar to the shaft coupler I have from R&D which I have been happy with.

Witz, I have to say I appreciate you being point on this as it resolved a lot of questions that I had and made it much easier on me in the end. I plan on reinstalling on Friday and then getting a nice sea trial and sail in.

 

[Witzend]

Thanks RP, that is what this forum is about.
Two other things to focus on as you assemble:
1) Run-out, make sure that when you mount the Sachs on the R&D plate that there is none. I mounted the assembly temporarily clamped together on the input shaft of the tranny and rotated it there to get it spot on before I drilled the holes.

2) Radial alignment, you should not have to force the tranny back in place, it should slide in as easily as it came out. I was baffled when mine would no go back together, suggesting a congenital problem with the castings or mounting plate design. This coupled with the inherent stiffness of R&D dampener, is why I think we as seeing all these premature failures.

BTW, what other "shaft coupler" do you have, that you are happy with?

 

[rpwillia]

Feedback

Thanks RP, that is what this forum is about.
Two other things to focus on as you assemble:
1) Run-out, make sure that when you mount the Sachs on the R&D plate that there is none. I mounted the assembly temporarily clamped together on the input shaft of the tranny and rotated it there to get it spot on before I drilled the holes.

2) Radial alignment, you should not have to force the tranny back in place, it should slide in as easily as it came out. I was baffled when mine would no go back together, suggesting a congenital problem with the castings or mounting plate design. This coupled with the inherent stiffness of R&D dampener, is why I think we as seeing all these premature failures.

BTW, what other "shaft coupler" do you have, that you are happy with?

Witz, I do have the old R&D Backing plate off and am planning on having that stand off the new Sach 10 1866 061 001 damper plate and the size and holes match the old backing plate. I am planning on putting 3 1/4" washers between the plates as the new damper plate has the spring protruding an RCH so it needs a little more room. The should also push the backing plate further back onto the shaft by 1/4 to 3/8 of an inch for a real right fit. I did get longer heat treated bolts for this as well.

For the shaft coupler I have an R&D coupler http://www.randdmarine.com/flexiblesc.asp that I am really pleased with. When I first started getting the vibration I thought it might be the prop or shaft and the coupler did help quite a bit.

Between you and PaulJ you have saved me quite a lot of trouble over the years. Hmmm, did I just complement PaulJ?

 

[Witzend]

I thought of using washers, but was concerned that the constant shifting lateral forces would eventually loosen the assembly. So... I manufactured a custom ring that I could drill the exact diameter holes that would match the screws and help with stability.

 

[jonfreeman]

Ray -

Went to the boat and took pictures and part numbers to prepare for the job and research parts. The noise is definitely there, and only when in gear at idle.

YAQ2 - Yet another (2) questions - 1A. How do you move the shaft back and out of the way? Looking at the shaft (see the picture), it doesn't look like there is much room. And to move it looks like you only have maybe 3.25" of backwards travel.

1B - Besides separating the two couplers, did you remove the coupler(s) from the shaft(s)? And/or just loosen the setscrews on the PSI shaft bellows retainer and slide it back?

Still doesn't intimidate me, just want to avoid any silly mistakes.

By the way - Any concerns or procedures re: shaft packing?

OK - that was three + questions

Thanks,

Jon Freeman
Tacoma, Wa

 

[paulj]

jfreeman


"By the way - Any concerns or procedures re: shaft packing?"


After looking at the picture you posted.....the above statement bothers me a little.



Paulj :troll:

 

[jonfreeman]

Paulj -

Not sure I understand the concern. I am supposing there is no shaft packing with the PSI unit doing the water containment, but the owners manual SUGGESTS there may be some packing besides. Is that what bothers you? Am I supposing incorrectly?

Jon Freeman
Tacoma, WA

 

[rpwillia]

More info

Ray -

Went to the boat and took pictures and part numbers to prepare for the job and research parts. The noise is definitely there, and only when in gear at idle.

YAQ2 - Yet another (2) questions - 1A. How do you move the shaft back and out of the way? Looking at the shaft (see the picture), it doesn't look like there is much room. And to move it looks like you only have maybe 3.25" of backwards travel.

1B - Besides separating the two couplers, did you remove the coupler(s) from the shaft(s)? And/or just loosen the setscrews on the PSI shaft bellows retainer and slide it back?

Still doesn't intimidate me, just want to avoid any silly mistakes.

By the way - Any concerns or procedures re: shaft packing?

OK - that was three + questions

Thanks,

Jon Freeman
Tacoma, Wa

Jon, I have a traditionally packed shaft, with I suspect the gore packing as it does not leak all that much and does not get have - e.g. I have no dripless. So I was able to slide the shaft back 1-2 inches. From my take, that is not the biggest problem, it is getting the transmission back in and over that lip that separates the shaft drip bilge from the engine bilge. I was playing with it some today and it looks like I may need to raise the engine about 1-2 inches as the new coupler has so much spline I cannot get it in without a perfectly straight alignment (got away with that when pulling the engine.

Also one thing I did not mention is it makes putting the transmission back in much easier it you just unhook the exhaust host and get it out of the way.

I removed my R&D shaft coupler completely as it would have been in the way - one side bolts to the transmission and the other side bolts to the shaft. Not hard, but just takes a few minutes as there is barely room for a wrench in there.

 

[gpd955]

I forgot I posted on this thread in the beginning and never posted after I figured out what the problem was. As a reminder, I had a bad vibration at around 1800 RPM which would go away at around 2000.

I ran the engine and had the Admiral mess with the throttle (tee hee) while I tried to trace this annoying noise. After a few minutes, I noticed that the noise went away when I was leaning on the wood that covers the compartment where the water-lift muffler is and came back when I let up on it. Apparently 1800 RPM was enough to cause the wood to rattle against the plastic of the quarterberth.

Luckliy, what I thought was going to be an expensive or complicated prop/shaft/engine issue turned out to be nothing! Sometimes it's the simple things. OK, once in a blue moon it's the simple things.

 

[paulj]

Ray

RCH an old machinist term.

You can not say that here and on TV.


paulj:troll:

 

[rpwillia]

So true ...

Ray RCH an old machinist term. You can not say that here and on TV. paulj:troll:

Hmmm... I thought it was something from the US Navy. Does your term involve royalty?

As an update for Jon, I did get a few minutes to get my transmission mated back up. Luckily after getting to the boat I realized I needed a 2nd piece of chain and an 11/16 wrench to loosen my rear engine mounts. One lesson learned is that it is much easier to re-install the transmission if you lift the engine about 1 inch. What I did was loosen the engine mount bolts up to the top of the engine mount, put a 4x4 across the top of the cabin opening, chain to come-along to chain on the engine; and pulled the engine right up. Because the new coupling fits really tight on the shaft (finer than an RCH) I had to play with it and then it slid right it (hmmm, that reminds me of something else). Definitely a lot easier. I suspect with the old coupling being so worn that allowed me to angle the transmission when I was pulling it out, but was not possible with the new one.

Another lesson learned is that with the coupler I used, you need to use the original bolts as there is very little clearance at the top of the bell housing, so I was not able to set mine back like Witz did. In hindsight his method and use of parts may be a bit better, but again I was lucky as I did not have near the wear he had.

One other lesson learned is to take off the exhaust host from the elbow to the water muffler as it was a lot easier without that big hose in the way and it only took about 2 minutes to remove and about the save to re-install.

 

[jonfreeman]

OK - It may seem like I'm agonizing over this too much, but here's my thinking.

Sliding the shaft back so I can pull the tranny is a bit interesting with the PSS packing. Have to loosen the collar/rotor and slide the shaft, while keeping the seawater flow at or near zero. Not an easy thing I am betting. Install instructions for PSS say clearly (liability...) install MUST be done out of the water. Since the shaft cannot exit the tube because of the rudder, but COULD go so far as past the collar, I would have to leave the shaft coupler on. AND, it may not be enough to remove the tranny...

HOWEVER

The PSS packing I have was reused when we replaced my bronze shaft with stainless 19 months ago. It is at least 10 years old, and all indications from the web are that they should be replaced every 6 years. Plus all the black debris bits shaving off and spread in the bilge leads me to believe a replacement is in order. Paulj - Is this what you were concerned about?

Anyway, I have no way of knowing if the yard reused the setscrews (probably did), which is absolutely a no-no according to many scary stories and PSS' own instructions, as they "squash" when they are installed, and must be new EACH time you install to allow for new "squash." Otherwise the collar can slip forward, and start leaking (!!!).

So - I am concluding a haulout and a couple days on the hard is on order to fix this right. The PSS new is only $206, and all can be done without worrying about water. Plus it will be the new design with the vent hose, so no more having to remember "burping" after haulout. Might explain the black bits...

The haulout will probably be the most expensive part

I figure a little over half a BOAT unit (Break out another thou).

I actually enjoy these problems (really). The cost sucks, but I enjoy the research, the community discussions and inputs, and the satisfaction when it's all done (CORRECTLY).

Speaking of the community - THANKS for all the inputs here. This is (to me) what the IA's are ALL about.

Jon Freeman
Tacoma, WA

 

[paulj]

jfreeman

Your packing looked a little thin compared to mine.....I should have posted a picture and made a complete

statement other than posting just a thought......after all I knew what I WAS SAYING.


paulj :troll:

 

[jonfreeman]

Paulj -

I see what you mean. Supports my logic that I should consider replacing the old one. I like the hose installation you did (water bottle is a nice addition. Installation instructions say compress 3/4" or so. Mine is about an inch, if the tape can be trusted, but it IS collapsed considerably smaller than yours...

Ran across a GREAT article on PSS failures. The examples given ALL made me nervous (setscrews, age, bellows failure with no spares). All resulted in way more water in the boat than desirable... None cast any real aspersions on the PSS itself. It is a great product. Just need to do the right things re: maintenance and R&R.

I will write this up with pictures for the Miansheet when it's all over.

Jon Freeman
Tacoma, WA

 

[rpwillia]

My $0.02

Paulj - I see what you mean. ... I like the hose installation you did (water bottle is a nice addition. ...

Jon, Sounds like you are doing the right thing. If you are concerned about a part that faces the water, you should replace it. I suspect that if you simply pull then engine up like I did, you may still have enough room to pull the transmission and replace the damper plate without having to mess with your shaft seal. Hard to argue against a PaulJ mod.

 

[Witzend]

If you're careful, and regularly check for heat, GTX packing can be run nearly dry, I just put a sponge under in a small pan to collect any. Why would anyone bother with this expensive and potentially disastrous upgrade???...sorry... I got in trouble with the big man the last time I expressed my views on this subject.