Production Boats / Circumnavigaton DISCUSSION

[John Nantz]

Whew! What is the purpose?

Just stopped in and read the first few posts and it was like deja vu.

This "blue water" type "discussion" comes up every few weeks it seems. So what is the purpose? To educate new-bies? To help someone determine what mods they need to make or what boats they should consider buying/avoiding?

Typically it seems someone new stops in for the first time and figures out how to put up a post... "What is the best....." or "I want to buy....." then we never hear or see them again.

Are there discussions elsewhere on what is the equivalent of a "blue water" car? Some will say a diesel powered Mercedes, others would come out for 0 to 60 and want a go-fast rig. Or, hey, what about a Checker cab? Talk to a Jeep person and they will obviously root for 4-wheel drive: http://www.jeepersjamboree.com/ Anything with 2-wheel drive is a coastal cruiser but maybe it could be modified with big tires and roll bars? And a few trips down a wet and muddy road to show everybody how tough it is.

These discussions can be educational if kept low key but so often they seem to degenerate and would probably be better off if relegated to The War Room.

What about a category for "Best boat" and/or "Blue water cruiser"? After a post gets started and run it's course the administrator could put it into the appropriate category for future reference then we could just give the new poster a link to the category.

Whew! Said my piece and now I'm outa here.

 

[Bill Roosa]

You folks are funny.
Perhaps MS has an ulterior motive. He secretly wants a challenge and is looking for the absolute worst boat to sail around the world in. Think of the glory that would be heaped on him as he returns to his start point. Fire boat fountains, unicorns and glitter everywhere. WOW what a moment.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Think of the glory that would be heaped on him as he returns to his start point. Fire boat fountains, unicorns and glitter everywhere. WOW what a moment.

Now, if he were a teenager trying to set a record . . . .

 

[OldCat]

What do you consider "passage making modifications"..?

If a "bluewater inexperienced idiot" like me were to try this, I want mods.

1. hard points beefed up to attach a drogue or parachute, maybe both.
2. A detachable inner forestay to carry a storm jib with reasonable balance.
3. Mods to the interior cabinetry so that stuff does not go flying about if /when I get knocked down.
4. Increased water and diesel tank capacities.
5. Wind vane steering.
6. Solar & wind generators.
7. Small silent unobtrusively launched homing torpedoes to sink pirates, plus letters of marque for any I capture. I already have the bumblebee flag. OK - maybe#7 is too much .

Maybe more, but these are the first things that come to mind. Is this to many mods to qualify for this thread?

More preferably, I'd just consider an IP 350 or 370 a production boat, sail down the coast as far as I could, then consider starting a bluewater crossing.

Just my basically worthless 2c ,
OC

 

[OldCat]

You folks are funny.
Perhaps MS has an ulterior motive. He secretly wants a challenge and is looking for the absolute worst boat to sail around the world in. Think of the glory that would be heaped on him as he returns to his start point. Fire boat fountains, unicorns and glitter everywhere. WOW what a moment.

My C22 Sport is available, great lake day sailor. Has sufficient number of one time use marine toilets since I drink a lot of Gatorade. Will trade for a C270 . Maybe I should up the trade price to an IP 350 .

OC

 

[Jalepeno]

Have a look at the following:

http://www.user.dccnet.com/rdarcy/index.html

http://www.capehorn.com/superlatives.htm

http://www.norseayachts.com/norsea27.php

 

[wetass]

If a "bluewater inexperienced idiot" like me were to try this, I want mods.

1. hard points beefed up to attach a drogue or parachute, maybe both.
2. A detachable inner forestay to carry a storm jib with reasonable balance.
3. Mods to the interior cabinetry so that stuff does not go flying about if /when I get knocked down.
4. Increased water and diesel tank capacities.
5. Wind vane steering.
6. Solar & wind generators.
7. Small silent unobtrusively launched homing torpedoes to sink pirates, plus letters of marque for any I capture. I already have the bumblebee flag. OK - maybe#7 is too much .

Maybe more, but these are the first things that come to mind. Is this to many mods to qualify for this thread?

More preferably, I'd just consider an IP 350 or 370 a production boat, sail down the coast as far as I could, then consider starting a bluewater crossing.

Just my basically worthless 2c ,
OC

With the exception of #2, I think all those mods are normal and would be considered standard to any boat making the trip. Even purpose built BW boats use jerry cans on deck to supplement fuel more often then not. And I have yet to see a boat with from the factory purpose built drogue attachment points. The torpedo launchers though I think come standard on some high end taiwanese built BW boats though.

 

[RichH]

Here's a listing of circumnavigations starting/finishing on the West Coast of the USA ... for approximately 350 boats of which the number of what most would consider a 'production boat' would only come to less than ~4% of the total. The data is arranged by skipper & crew/ dates / boat type or mfg., etc. Youll even find a Pearson P28 and a sailing 'log canoe' in the list.
With no great surprise, youll find that the 'production' blue water boats dominating the list ... and mostly by the designer Bob Perry - Valiant/Tayana/Passport and their derivatives.

http://www.latitude38.com/features/circumnav.html#.TooMqkZAtZ8

 

[John Nantz]

Torpedo launchers soon to be old school

The new wave will be remote controlled model airplane drones. Got to stay up with the latest technology.

For cruisers with small boats instead of a carrier landing deck perhaps one with floats and folding wings like a Vought F4U Corsair (for easier storage in the lazerette).

 

[wgkenney]

This seems to be a bit of a heated topic so I'm a little leary to enter the discussion. But I have a tangent question that I have been curious about.

I have a Beneteau 473. We sail on the Chesapeake Bay. Long weekends and no more than a two week trip out and back in the marina. I think that likely qualifies as "costal or bay" cruising. Our boat works great for this purpose and we love doing this sailing.

Circumnavigating certainly qualifies as blue water. Not really what I want to do, although I'm sure there are people with a sister boat of mine that have.

My question is how do you qualify a few weeks from Rock Hall Maryland up to Long Island and then a summer cruising in RI, Maine etc. Or a series of jumps down the east coast to the Bahamas and then spending several months cruising the Bahamas. Is that blue water or still costal cruising? I don't have much interest in crossing an ocean or spending months at sea. But making a jump into some "blue water" to get to my next "costal" cruising area always seemed like a reasonable ambition with our boat (with some safety / gear mods).

 

[wetass]

wgkenney,
I think we have established that it would be irresponsible to venture out of sight of land in anything less then a 60' full keeled steel hulled "blue water" designed, cutter rigged boat, with torpedoes at a minimum, but preferably drone launch capabilities.

Just kidding, I think your probably fine, but honestly never sailed in the atlantic, so others probably need to comment.

 

[Maine Sail]

My question is how do you qualify a few weeks from Rock Hall Maryland up to Long Island and then a summer cruising in RI, Maine etc. Or a series of jumps down the east coast to the Bahamas and then spending several months cruising the Bahamas. Is that blue water or still costal cruising? I don't have much interest in crossing an ocean or spending months at sea. But making a jump into some "blue water" to get to my next "costal" cruising area always seemed like a reasonable ambition with our boat (with some safety / gear mods).

I personally qualify that a coastal cruising.

 

[wgkenney]

wgkenney,
I think we have established that it would be irresponsible to venture out of sight of land in anything less then a 60' full keeled steel hulled "blue water" designed, cutter rigged boat, with torpedoes at a minimum, but preferably drone launch capabilities.

LOL, just between you and me I'm a former submarine officer and I do have 6 tubes amidship and would not think about venturing out without a loadout of MK 48 Adcaps. I just feel naked without real torpedos on board.

 

[wgkenney]

I personally qualify that a coastal cruising.

Thanks Maine Sail -- Also thanks for your battery posts as well. Just did a battery replacement last week based on much of your input.

 

[RichH]

Let me offer a 'fundamental' difference between the FUNCTIONAL structural needs of blue water and coastal designs.

First, a blue water boat should be designed and built so that the boat can withstand long term survivability of extreme weather, and afford reasonable protection of the crew and no matter the 'experience' of the crew' ... A boat that is purposely built to REPEATEDELY and often withstand the MAXIMUM that 'mother nature' can provide and do so for long (materials 'fatigue' considerations).

A 'coastal' cruising boat should be able to the withstand a brief or relatively short period of maximum weather and sea state ... because it 'can' easily run for safe harbor and to avoid the average 'maximum' conditions.

The structural differences are the blue water boat is usually designed at 3 to 4 times the calculated strength for 'normal' maximum conditions expected. The Coastal boat is normally designed at 2 to 2.5 times the calculated strength for 'normal' mqximum conditions expected. That is a BIG difference!!!!!!!!

Yes, a lightweight flimsy Clorox Bottle or even a Magregor 26X 'can' do a circumnavigation .... but, and a VERY important BUT is, that the lightweight Clorox Bottle has a higher 'probability' by its 'design strength' of becoming 'broken' in comparison to a 'blue water' boat .... by a factor or 3:2. (or 4:2 for when comparing to the 'top quality' Blue Water boats). And this is a far different consideration than the boats being compared 'LOOK the same' or have experienced or non-experienced crews, etc. Also, you have to ask why these 'customary' safety factors have evolved to establish the 'scantlings' that yield 'coastal' or 'offshore .... that answer is those that didnt have sufficient scantlings numbers simply had a higher failure rate for the service intended.
Just because a coastal design LOOKS LIKE a purpose-built blue water boat doesnt make it a blue water boat. The FUNDAMENTAL considerations / differences of a blue water designed boat is its purposely built 'stronger' than a coastal designed boat and thus has a much greater probability of surviving long term in the 'open ocean'.

Its the structural NUMBERS that makes the difference, not what you 'think' or assume.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Very well described, Rich. Thanks.

Of course, with the "Rubber Ducky" post earlier, I'm just waiting for some wag to suggest that some Clorox bottles certainly HAVE circumnavigated!

 

[capta]

Production vessels

I know you'll delete this because it doesn't fit your criteria, but it should be said. Just because it has been done does not mean it should be done. No one should ever consider crossing an ocean in any modern Hunter, period. There are so many other poorly built production boats, too numerous to count, that also fall into that category, but there are always the lucky ones that get by.
Southbound last November we were hit buy a container in a gale. My Pearson 530 fared well, with only a bruise to her hull, but a Hunter would have sunk in seconds, as would an Irwin, Gulfstar, most Morgans and many of the Beneteau & Jeaneau models now in production.
Oh well, good luck w/ your list.
Regards,
Andrew

 

[Ed Schenck]

Re: Production Boats That Have Circumnavigated

You are correct about the deletion and maybe your assertion. Would you start a separate thread and explain how your Pearson differs in construction? I am seriously interested.

 

[capta]

Re: Production Boats That Have Circumnavigated

Ed
Preparing for southbound trip to St. T. No time now.
Later, OK
Andrew

 

[HukilauMike]

Re: Production Boats That Have Circumnavigated

Sailor = James Baldwin
Boat = Pearson Triton
Vessel Name = Atom
Route Traveled = Miami/Panama/South Pacific/Cape Town/Miami
Blog/Web Site = www.atomvoyages.com
Last Known Location =
Personal Statements =

EDIT: Moved here because the Triton has always been considered a heavily built blue water style boat with a full keel and attached rudder. Also that boat was still heavily modified despite its already robust construction. A "production" Pearson would be from a much later era like the P-28, P-30, P-31, P-33-2, P-34, P36-2 etc...