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Production Boats / Circumnavigaton DISCUSSION

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Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
7,111
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
EDIT by Maine Sail:

I have moved these post to a discussion thread to keep the other one clean.






Sailor =
Tania Aebi
Boat = Contessa 26


EDIT by Maine Sail: Joe a Contessa 26 is very much a "blue water" type boat. Heck it was reviewed by Blue Water Boats of which they said this;
"She’s proven very capable, and despite her size and cramped 5′ 8″ of headroom, her blue water pedigree includes several circumnavigations and a score of Atlantic and Pacific crossings." I have edited it out of the running.

Think Hunter, Catalina, Jeanneau, Beneteau etc...
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
7,111
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Sailor = Tania Aebi
Boat = Contessa 26


EDIT: Joe a Contessa 26 is very much a "blue water" type boat. Heck it was reviewed by Blue Water Boats of which they said this;
"She’s proven very capable, and despite her size and cramped 5′ 8″ of headroom, her blue water pedigree includes several circumnavigations and a score of Atlantic and Pacific crossings." I have edited it out of the running.

Think Hunter, Catalina, Jeanneau, Beneteau etc...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tania_Aebi
In that case if one of the "production" boats is mentioned more than twice it should also be eliminated..... defining the vessel by it's skipper's accomplishment is like saying the Catalina 27 is a blue water boat because childress completed a circumnavigation with one.

Would you consider Laura Decker's Jeauneau Gin Fizz "Guppy" a production boat? or blue water?

IMHO you should just edit the list of circumnavigators in Ross' post to suite your "rules" . Even then, I'm not sure what it will prove.
 

dhays

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Aug 2, 2010
93
Catalina C400 Gig Harbor, WA
In that case if one of the "production" boats is mentioned more than twice it should also be eliminated..... defining the vessel by it's skipper's accomplishment is like saying the Catalina 27 is a blue water boat because childress completed a circumnavigation with one.
I think the whole point is to define the boat by it's design and construction. The idea is to provide examples of the typical plastic "production" boats (which Maine Sail described pretty well) which are designed as "coastal cruisers" which have made blue water voyages. Examples of ocean voyages by boats that are specifically designed for off shore cruising aren't the point.

It is almost like asking for examples of folks who have cycled across the US and having people provide examples of people that used Motorcycles, not bicycles. :naughty:
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,272
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
In that case if one of the "production" boats is mentioned more than twice it should also be eliminated..... defining the vessel by it's skipper's accomplishment is like saying the Catalina 27 is a blue water boat because childress completed a circumnavigation with one.

Would you consider Laura Decker's Jeauneau Gin Fizz "Guppy" a production boat? or blue water?
Joe,

Please read the OP. I am looking for mostly unmodified production boats and skippers that have circumnavigated these boats. I don't care how many times a boat is mentioned and I am NOT defining any of these boats as "blue water". I just want to know how many, mostly un-modified production boats have done this.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
7,111
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
I think the whole point is to define the boat by it's design and construction. The idea is to provide examples of the typical plastic "production" boats (which Maine Sail described pretty well) which are designed as "coastal cruisers" which have made blue water voyages. Examples of ocean voyages by boats that are specifically designed for off shore cruising aren't the point.

It is almost like asking for examples of folks who have cycled across the US and having people provide examples of people that used Motorcycles, not bicycles. :naughty:
So, what you are looking for is sailors who were lucky, or dumb, enough to embark on a circumnavigation on a mass produced boat they bought "off the rack" withough making any passagemaking modifications? And the point is?
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,272
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
So, what you are looking for is sailors who were lucky, or dumb, enough to embark on a circumnavigation on a mass produced boat they bought "off the rack" withough making any passagemaking modifications? And the point is?

What do you consider "passage making modifications"..?
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,775
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Maine,

There has been a flotsam raft of rubber duckies that escaped from an overboard container in mid Pacific many years ago .... the duckies have made several circumnavigations, many through the NW passage; they were mass produced, etc. etc.

What I offer is that unless one also quantifies the circumnavigation versus some objective metric such as wind and sea state (time/distance travelled) by encountered vs. build quality (as quantified by such as inbuilt safety factor) ... then such a quantification would be more valid. Some passages wind up being 'milk runs' ( Eg. The Bumfuzzles), some are a total human washing machine + vomit comet passages ... all depends on LUCK, and that should be subtracted.

Also weakly built boats are more prone to sink, flounder, capsize, break apart, etc. ... and those 'passages' dont get ever recorded, etc. .... so the comparison can be extended by specific model, etc. VS. number started vs. number finished ... VS. combined total sea state/wind value (from above paragraph). etc. etc. etc.

If you dont make these adjustments for you comparison, the total number of circumnavigating, high production, 'duckies' will wind up 'hand down' in 'first place' in your 'survey'.

;-)
 

dhays

.
Aug 2, 2010
93
Catalina C400 Gig Harbor, WA
So, what you are looking for is sailors who were lucky, or dumb, enough to embark on a circumnavigation on a mass produced boat they bought "off the rack" withough making any passagemaking modifications? And the point is?
Hm... not my thread but here is what the OP wrote:

2- Boats shall have been, for the most part stock. No structural improvements, hull stiffening, chain plate mods, rudder mods, added bulkheads, drastic port light modifications (through bolting ports is fine) etc. etc.. Wind gen, solar, self steering, life rafts, & standard cruising equipment etc. are all fine. This is a list of non "blue water" production boats that have done it.
Joe, how many boats produced by Catalina, Hunter, or Beneteau come "off the rack" with wind or soloar generators, self steering vanes, EPIRBS, life rafts, jack lines, sea anchor or any of a number of other typical additions to a boat that a prudent person might equip their boat with for an ocean crossing?

I wouldn't have thought this was all that difficult a concept. :confused:
 
May 24, 2004
6,442
CC 30 South Florida
I'll try to sum it up. I would not be my preference to cross an ocean on a boat designed for coastal cruising the same way I would not be to go coastal cruising in a boat designed for ocean passages. Each was designed with a specific purpose in mind and each performs better overall at fulfilling their intended purpose. A blue water boat tends to be heavy and non-responsive in light coastal breezes, the cabin is usually dark due to small portholes and the cockpit is usually not much for socializing and sightseeing. The costal cruiser is usually nimbler and at a disadvantage in foul weather, the sleeping berths are designed for comfort over functinality and that big cockpit can hold too many gallons of water if swamped. Sure a coastal cruiser can cross oceans but that does not make it a blue water boat and by the same token that offshore boat will never be the most efficient and comfortable coastal cruiser.
 

Phil Herring

Dethroned Admin
Mar 25, 1997
4,713
Hunter 450 Bainbridge Island

Ross

.
Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Geez, Mianesail , This bunch is worse than a Repulican convention. Try to put up for discussion a simple proposition i.e. "What production quality boats do you know about that have crossed oceans?" And you get this quarrel and quibbling about what is and ain't qualified to compete.
My boat won't qualify because it is no longer as built in 1968. But it ain't gonna cross any oceans under my feets anyway .Just trying to demonstrate that all manner of production boats have carried people across oceans starts a row. Sheesh!
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,775
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
I'll try to sum it up. I would not be my preference to cross an ocean on a boat designed for coastal cruising the same way I would not be to go coastal cruising in a boat designed for ocean passages. Each was designed with a specific purpose in mind and each performs better overall at fulfilling their intended purpose. A blue water boat tends to be heavy and non-responsive in light coastal breezes, the cabin is usually dark due to small portholes and the cockpit is usually not much for socializing and sightseeing. The costal cruiser is usually nimbler and at a disadvantage in foul weather, the sleeping berths are designed for comfort over functinality and that big cockpit can hold too many gallons of water if swamped. Sure a coastal cruiser can cross oceans but that does not make it a blue water boat and by the same token that offshore boat will never be the most efficient and comfortable coastal cruiser.
All good points Benny17441.
I remember the famous C. J. Marchaj put of much of what you listed (plus more) together in an attempt to obtain a 'quantifiable number' or metrics basis for such comparisons. I think I remember this specific work or book or tech paper was entitled "Sea-kindliness - the Forgotten Factor".
... with further resulted by other authors, etc. at the time to divert from 'sea-kindliness' to the concept of (now mostly ignored) 'capsize ratios', etc. Seakindliness is a very important consideration for such long passages, IMHO and is probably why you see the preponderance of circumnavigators in boats with high 'sea-kindliness' numbers not the typical 'production boat'.
 
Feb 26, 2004
21,219
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Overthinking the question

A blue water boat tends to be heavy and non-responsive in light coastal breezes, the cabin is usually dark due to small portholes and the cockpit is usually not much for socializing and sightseeing. ... Sure a coastal cruiser can cross oceans but that does not make it a blue water boat and by the same token that offshore boat will never be the most efficient and comfortable coastal cruiser.

First, MS's question was pretty clear.

Second, off the coast of Northern California, Benny, I'd opt for a blue water boat, but thousands if not more stock Catalinas, for instance, from 25 feet to the bigger ones (470s) have sailed down to Southern California. All of them have attested to the fact that sailing BACK up north is really more than simple coastal cruising. Much heavy weather is experienced around Point Conception. So, all I'm saying is that generalities don't necessarily apply.

Atom, one of the earliest Pearson TRITONs, sailed around. I mentioned in another topic that I'd stumbled across their old P28 website, very interesting reading, which included scanned copies of some great technical material. Not much has changed in electrical systems and skippers' misunderstandings of the 1-2-B switch!!!

But I couldn't nominate Atom, 'cuz that skipper really beefed her up for the trip.

So, analyze away here, but let's stay on topic in answer to Maine Sail's original request.
 

Joe

.
Jun 1, 2004
7,111
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Hm... not my thread but here is what the OP wrote:



Joe, how many boats produced by Catalina, Hunter, or Beneteau come "off the rack" with wind or soloar generators, self steering vanes, EPIRBS, life rafts, jack lines, sea anchor or any of a number of other typical additions to a boat that a prudent person might equip their boat with for an ocean crossing?

I wouldn't have thought this was all that difficult a concept. :confused:
Well, I don't think any boat... production or otherwise... comes with all that stuff.

BTW... I understand the concept. I just find it hard to believe MS is involved in something so subjective.

I agree with Ross' comments on this subject.
 
May 11, 2005
3,431
Seidelman S37 Slidell, La.
Do some of us have something against production boats?

Sounds as if some on this board just have it in for plain old production boats. Most of us are doing good to afford just a production model, and would rather go for it than not because we can't afford a " blue water" boat. And some of us just don't know any better. Mostly it's a matter of go now with what you got. Many years ago, when I was much younger, had minimal sailing experience, and even less smarts, I single handed a little swing keel Chrysler 22, from Corpus Christi, Tx., to Isla Mujeras and back. My navigation equipment consisted of a large scale chart and a compass. I was so dumb I didn't even kinow how to heave to. A tremendous amount of luck and very little skill involved, but at that age I was still 10 feet tall and bullet proof. But it sure was fun.
 

eliems

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Apr 26, 2011
102
Hunter H28 Port Moody
Lady at the bank asked me what kind of boat I bought and when I told her "Hunter 28" she said a friend of her husband had just left in an H28 to cross the Pacific!

Not sure that this is true but if so ... He's nuts!
 

dhays

.
Aug 2, 2010
93
Catalina C400 Gig Harbor, WA
I'll try to sum it up. I would not be my preference to cross an ocean on a boat designed for coastal cruising the same way I would not be to go coastal cruising in a boat designed for ocean passages. Each was designed with a specific purpose in mind and each performs better overall at fulfilling their intended purpose.
I agree with you 100%. This seems almost self-evident.

Sure a coastal cruiser can cross oceans but that does not make it a blue water boat and by the same token that offshore boat will never be the most efficient and comfortable coastal cruiser.
Agreed. However, did Maine Sail ever say that these coastal cruisers were great blue water boats? I don't think so. Why such a strong reaction to simply asking for examples of coastal cruisers who have gone beyond what we think of as their normal cruising ground?

If I asked for any accounts of folks who have crossed the Atlantic in human powered boats, would everyone suddenly think I'm advocating that everyone?
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
When I purchased Bietzpadlin I knew that she was not open ocean ready. She had large windows, a very large cockpit with very small drains, the companion sill was only six inches above the cockpit sole. Her chainplates were deck mounted. Could she have crossed an ocean? probably. Could she have survived a storm? maybe. I have replaced the windows with smaller ones, I raised the companion sill to the same level as the coamings, I added a storage lazerette and quarter deck that reduced the cockpit volume by half and I installed 2 inch diameter cockpit drains. I completely reinforced the hull with Airex core and extra plies of fiberglass. Several experienced sailers have told me that she could go anywhere today and keep her crew safe.
 

zeehag

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Mar 26, 2009
3,195
1976 formosa 41 yankee clipper santa barbara. ca.(not there)
waaaay back in 1990-1991 or so a well beefed up catalina 27 name of "my sweet lord" finished a rtw excursion--i thunk him waknutz... but it was essentially rebuilt inside-- i am sure they were using the mantra "my sweet lord" all round in seas in her..... she was just down cerritos channel from me on her return. still looked like a catalina 27, but had been stiffened and burlied out inside. i donot know their names but i was impressed that the lil catalina actually made the trip intact. i do hope that lil boat is on the list....

if a formosa 41 is a production boat, i would sail her wherever she wanted to go -- i dont have any ideas of rtw explorations, but these are heavy and good boats. i didnt participate in the poll as i am not sure if mine is considered a production number.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,272
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Maine,


Also weakly built boats are more prone to sink, flounder, capsize, break apart, etc. ... and those 'passages' dont get ever recorded, etc. .... so the comparison can be extended by specific model, etc. VS. number started vs. number finished ... VS. combined total sea state/wind value (from above paragraph). etc. etc. etc.

If you dont make these adjustments for you comparison, the total number of circumnavigating, high production, 'duckies' will wind up 'hand down' in 'first place' in your 'survey'.

;-)
First this is not a survey it is simply a list I would like to see because I am curious.

Secondly if you or anyone else can post the same type of data where any of these production boats "broke apart", and that was the cause of the sinking, I would love to see that too...
 
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