I just had my 1982 27' Catalina's atomic-4 rebuilt by a local ship repair shop at the cost of nearly $5,000. I did test sailing and found out that its power was too weak to drive the boat, only about 2 or 3 knots. The power is even weaker than what it was rebuilt before. And it smoks!! Can someone tell me how to justify the quality or performance of the rebuilt engine. Repair shop said that the engine itself is working fine. How can I argue with them without any preformance data? I thought that the repair shop should provide me the performance data such as compression raio? Any advise?
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Nice Paintjob
Leon: Ouch..You may want to do a quick compression check (get a gage from a friend..pull the spark plugs and run the gage through the 4 cylinders turning the engine over with the starter...Should get good compression....Could have screwed up the spark with the distributor...This could be your lack of power due to bad timing and be contribuiting to the smoking problem.....Your rebuilder should stand behind his work...Engine is 30 horsepower and a Cat 27 should do better than 6 knots when engine is going at about 2/3rds rpm...Good luck...P.S. specks on engine can be found in the archives of this site or from Moyer marine...
Leon: Ouch..You may want to do a quick compression check (get a gage from a friend..pull the spark plugs and run the gage through the 4 cylinders turning the engine over with the starter...Should get good compression....Could have screwed up the spark with the distributor...This could be your lack of power due to bad timing and be contribuiting to the smoking problem.....Your rebuilder should stand behind his work...Engine is 30 horsepower and a Cat 27 should do better than 6 knots when engine is going at about 2/3rds rpm...Good luck...P.S. specks on engine can be found in the archives of this site or from Moyer marine...
It doesn't seem like they did it right . . .
I'm not an expert on inboards, but if they did things right it would work equally well, and most likely better than before. I would hold the repair shop's feet to the fire (literally if you have to). $5K seems like a lot of money. They should make it right. You don't need all kinds of emperical data to go back to them with. The simple fact that it has less power than before should be sifficient. Go get'em. Regards, Ted
I'm not an expert on inboards, but if they did things right it would work equally well, and most likely better than before. I would hold the repair shop's feet to the fire (literally if you have to). $5K seems like a lot of money. They should make it right. You don't need all kinds of emperical data to go back to them with. The simple fact that it has less power than before should be sifficient. Go get'em. Regards, Ted
what was rebuilt?
Hello, What exactly was rebuilt? Was the carburator part of the rebuild? What about gas, is the fuel old or new? Have you checked the fuel line and fuel filter for obstruction? How does the motor run, smooth, rough, sputter? Good luck, Barry
Hello, What exactly was rebuilt? Was the carburator part of the rebuild? What about gas, is the fuel old or new? Have you checked the fuel line and fuel filter for obstruction? How does the motor run, smooth, rough, sputter? Good luck, Barry
let them find the problem
for 5k the mere fact you can only get 2kts is proof enough something is wrong and they need to find and fix it. the A4 should push a C27 at hull speed easy!
for 5k the mere fact you can only get 2kts is proof enough something is wrong and they need to find and fix it. the A4 should push a C27 at hull speed easy!
Transmission Issue
Thanks Ted and Dave, I had the 5-6 knots after I had the bottom job made an year ago. However, I am getting only 2-3 knots for the rebuilt engine now. Repair shop told me that I might have the transmission problem which they didn't check during the rebuilt. Transmission issue is not a part of rebuilt work. They even said that the current in the bay might be the cause slowing down the boat. (There was no wind when I did the test sailing) I am getting more confused.
Thanks Ted and Dave, I had the 5-6 knots after I had the bottom job made an year ago. However, I am getting only 2-3 knots for the rebuilt engine now. Repair shop told me that I might have the transmission problem which they didn't check during the rebuilt. Transmission issue is not a part of rebuilt work. They even said that the current in the bay might be the cause slowing down the boat. (There was no wind when I did the test sailing) I am getting more confused.
To: What was Rebuilt
Thanks Barry The gas has been there for more than half year. The motor runs ok, smoothly, I guessed. I am not sure that the smoking is normal for the newly rebuilt engine. As to what was rebuilt: New pistons, rings and bearins. Bored. Turn Crankshaft. points. plugs. condensor and wires. Valve job. Raw water impeller. Oil and Thermostat. The job does not include wiring, alternator, and transmission.
Thanks Barry The gas has been there for more than half year. The motor runs ok, smoothly, I guessed. I am not sure that the smoking is normal for the newly rebuilt engine. As to what was rebuilt: New pistons, rings and bearins. Bored. Turn Crankshaft. points. plugs. condensor and wires. Valve job. Raw water impeller. Oil and Thermostat. The job does not include wiring, alternator, and transmission.
A-4 Repair Repairs
Leon Whether you choose to find out what's wrong on your own, or hold the repairer's feet to the fire is your call. The most prudent thing to do would be to work together with the folks who did the work, so that you understand what's happening. Usually on gas engines, the timing is one of the first things to check. I did some engine work on my old 1971 VW bug, had been doing it for years. Everything looked fine until I got on the road, and had no oomph. Turned out I'd gapped the contacts in the distributor just fine, but hadn't tightened up the points correctly. Took a garage mechanic in Wyoming all of 10 nanoseconds to find that screwup on my part! If nothing was done to the transmission, and it was working fine before, and you have the correct amount of transmission fluid, that sure doesn't seem like a candidate. I don't understand your comment about currents in measuring speed. Were you using a GPS for SOG (speed over ground) or do you have a knot meter? Need to not confuse speed over ground with speed through water. So, rather than going back and forth with the repair shop, invite 'em over for coffee and danish or shots and a beer back and work it out together. With your engine, the reference to Moyer Marine is absolutely right on. You should have that website memorized by now! Stu
Leon Whether you choose to find out what's wrong on your own, or hold the repairer's feet to the fire is your call. The most prudent thing to do would be to work together with the folks who did the work, so that you understand what's happening. Usually on gas engines, the timing is one of the first things to check. I did some engine work on my old 1971 VW bug, had been doing it for years. Everything looked fine until I got on the road, and had no oomph. Turned out I'd gapped the contacts in the distributor just fine, but hadn't tightened up the points correctly. Took a garage mechanic in Wyoming all of 10 nanoseconds to find that screwup on my part! If nothing was done to the transmission, and it was working fine before, and you have the correct amount of transmission fluid, that sure doesn't seem like a candidate. I don't understand your comment about currents in measuring speed. Were you using a GPS for SOG (speed over ground) or do you have a knot meter? Need to not confuse speed over ground with speed through water. So, rather than going back and forth with the repair shop, invite 'em over for coffee and danish or shots and a beer back and work it out together. With your engine, the reference to Moyer Marine is absolutely right on. You should have that website memorized by now! Stu
I second the timing issue
I agree with Stu that the timing would be the first thing to check. Since the distributor runs with gears off the cam shaft and since these gears are subject to wear, it is possible that wear on these gears is significant to the point where it prevents the ignition from advancing properly as the throttle is opened. As just about everthing else that wears in the engine was replaced, I personally think that the distributor gear should have been replaced as well, or perhaps a new distributor installed. Also, you did not mention if the smoke was black or white. Black smoke would indicate unburned fuel and therefore lead to ignition timing as a problem. White smoke would be from oil therefore indicating an oil leak somewhere. However, I hope the new pistons are somewhat oversized to accomodate the cylinder boring that you mentioned.
I agree with Stu that the timing would be the first thing to check. Since the distributor runs with gears off the cam shaft and since these gears are subject to wear, it is possible that wear on these gears is significant to the point where it prevents the ignition from advancing properly as the throttle is opened. As just about everthing else that wears in the engine was replaced, I personally think that the distributor gear should have been replaced as well, or perhaps a new distributor installed. Also, you did not mention if the smoke was black or white. Black smoke would indicate unburned fuel and therefore lead to ignition timing as a problem. White smoke would be from oil therefore indicating an oil leak somewhere. However, I hope the new pistons are somewhat oversized to accomodate the cylinder boring that you mentioned.
The rebuild shop should "own" the problem . . .
although it may be prudent to work try to figure out as much as you can, the repair shop who re-built the motor is obligated to get it right. Is the work guarranteed? Most states have laws about implied warranties anyway, so you can use that as leverage. Bottom line is that in taking the engine apart, replacing parts, and putting it all back together, THEY screwed something up. THEY should figure out what it is and fix it for you. Good luck with this. Regards, Ted
although it may be prudent to work try to figure out as much as you can, the repair shop who re-built the motor is obligated to get it right. Is the work guarranteed? Most states have laws about implied warranties anyway, so you can use that as leverage. Bottom line is that in taking the engine apart, replacing parts, and putting it all back together, THEY screwed something up. THEY should figure out what it is and fix it for you. Good luck with this. Regards, Ted
Sick puppy
Leon, You said smoke-what color. If it's black then too much fuel or too little air. If it's blue, that's burning oil and that's not unusual until breakin is through. Black could be just the choke is not fully opened-simple adjustment, or float stuck in the carb. Either way if the yard installed the engine then they are liable. However if you did it may be your problem. Ray Lewis s/vTintertoy
Leon, You said smoke-what color. If it's black then too much fuel or too little air. If it's blue, that's burning oil and that's not unusual until breakin is through. Black could be just the choke is not fully opened-simple adjustment, or float stuck in the carb. Either way if the yard installed the engine then they are liable. However if you did it may be your problem. Ray Lewis s/vTintertoy
Dip & Ship . . .
I'm not sure, but in taking a second look at the photo, there's something that doesn’t look right to me I don't think a good shop would paint an engine in this manner. I mean they painted everything, including the alternator (which will make it harder to relieve heat) and they painted the rubber hose between the thermostat and the raw water manifold. They even painted the rubber hose to the flame arrester and they painted the oil pressure sender unit. (I’d want to know if my hoses are cracking under that layer of paint.) I hope I'm wrong, but to me it looks like they told some kid to, "go paint that engine," or even worse, because they so overdid it, they didn’t do anything else but paint it. If they did a proper rebuild (relax, they probably did) and it starts and idles more or less okay, and just lacks power underway, check the routing of the spark plug wires. An A-4 can run well enough to fool you into thinking it's something else when it's only a crossed spark plug wire. Nick "Julia Bell C-27, #86
I'm not sure, but in taking a second look at the photo, there's something that doesn’t look right to me I don't think a good shop would paint an engine in this manner. I mean they painted everything, including the alternator (which will make it harder to relieve heat) and they painted the rubber hose between the thermostat and the raw water manifold. They even painted the rubber hose to the flame arrester and they painted the oil pressure sender unit. (I’d want to know if my hoses are cracking under that layer of paint.) I hope I'm wrong, but to me it looks like they told some kid to, "go paint that engine," or even worse, because they so overdid it, they didn’t do anything else but paint it. If they did a proper rebuild (relax, they probably did) and it starts and idles more or less okay, and just lacks power underway, check the routing of the spark plug wires. An A-4 can run well enough to fool you into thinking it's something else when it's only a crossed spark plug wire. Nick "Julia Bell C-27, #86
sounds like a condenser that is grounding
to the inside of the distributor some times the condensor has a copper ribben insted of a wire and there is a tube that goes over the copper ribben and they mite not of put the tube on right or not at all.The motor would start up run great but would not reach right rpm or speed I bought a inbord ski boat in nice shape 1979 four 500 bucks 10 motor shops looked at this boat beforI bought it.And nody saw the missing tub.It can be a bad condenser but it sounds like its a grounding problem. John Olson
to the inside of the distributor some times the condensor has a copper ribben insted of a wire and there is a tube that goes over the copper ribben and they mite not of put the tube on right or not at all.The motor would start up run great but would not reach right rpm or speed I bought a inbord ski boat in nice shape 1979 four 500 bucks 10 motor shops looked at this boat beforI bought it.And nody saw the missing tub.It can be a bad condenser but it sounds like its a grounding problem. John Olson
a4 timing
i recently dug up some info on setting the timing , basically take the boat out and while runnujnat full throttle rotate the distributor to the spot where the engine has the most power ( read highest boat speed ) , next adjust the idle mixture screw to max power . the idle screw gain is minimal but every little bit helps . point gap is .012- .014. point gap is critical to good engine performance set the points first, timing second and adjust the carb. last . hope this helps . also you might check to see if the packing nut is too tight , if it is it will be hot to the touch after running in gear for a few minutes . warm is ok hot means too much power robbing friction in the packing , loosen the nut a turn or two , set my tightening the lock ring .the A4 is only 30hp at 3000rpm which means at 100rpm its only 10hp , not much . good luck .
i recently dug up some info on setting the timing , basically take the boat out and while runnujnat full throttle rotate the distributor to the spot where the engine has the most power ( read highest boat speed ) , next adjust the idle mixture screw to max power . the idle screw gain is minimal but every little bit helps . point gap is .012- .014. point gap is critical to good engine performance set the points first, timing second and adjust the carb. last . hope this helps . also you might check to see if the packing nut is too tight , if it is it will be hot to the touch after running in gear for a few minutes . warm is ok hot means too much power robbing friction in the packing , loosen the nut a turn or two , set my tightening the lock ring .the A4 is only 30hp at 3000rpm which means at 100rpm its only 10hp , not much . good luck .
White smoke
Thanks for the valuable information from evryone of you! I forgot to mention about that the smoke from engine room was white. Is it possible that the smoking is normal for the newly rebuilt engine? I'll do the joint testing with technician from the repair shop this weekend.
Thanks for the valuable information from evryone of you! I forgot to mention about that the smoke from engine room was white. Is it possible that the smoking is normal for the newly rebuilt engine? I'll do the joint testing with technician from the repair shop this weekend.
A few more thoughts . . .
Boy, you got us all going on this one ! I was just thinking, with so many internal parts replaced in the engine, it may actually need to be "broken in". When an engine is new the parts create lots of friction because they have not gotten 'comfortable' with each other yet. Most engines are broken in at the factory, so the consumer does not have to deal with it these days. A rebuilt engine would be a different case. An engine that is breaking-in will typically have reduced Horsepower and create lots of heat. The engine will take on 'normal' operating characteristics once the parts have worn-in. Break-in procedures can vary, but generally involve a period of several hours (5 +/-) running at different speeds, and not staying at any one speed for vary long. Load conditions should vary as well. As you work with the technician, you might want to keep this in mind. If the engine has not been run for very long (say less than 5 hours) you might want to give it a chance to break-in. Then see how it's going. While the engine is running in it current state you should make sure it has plenty of cooling (verify that water is going through the engine) and make sure the oil is full and not excessively baked/burnt. Usually, you do a complete oil/filter change after break-in. I hope all works out Regards, Ted
Boy, you got us all going on this one ! I was just thinking, with so many internal parts replaced in the engine, it may actually need to be "broken in". When an engine is new the parts create lots of friction because they have not gotten 'comfortable' with each other yet. Most engines are broken in at the factory, so the consumer does not have to deal with it these days. A rebuilt engine would be a different case. An engine that is breaking-in will typically have reduced Horsepower and create lots of heat. The engine will take on 'normal' operating characteristics once the parts have worn-in. Break-in procedures can vary, but generally involve a period of several hours (5 +/-) running at different speeds, and not staying at any one speed for vary long. Load conditions should vary as well. As you work with the technician, you might want to keep this in mind. If the engine has not been run for very long (say less than 5 hours) you might want to give it a chance to break-in. Then see how it's going. While the engine is running in it current state you should make sure it has plenty of cooling (verify that water is going through the engine) and make sure the oil is full and not excessively baked/burnt. Usually, you do a complete oil/filter change after break-in. I hope all works out Regards, Ted
Timing the A4
I have posted this before but you might find it useful. TIMING THE A4 If you have spark and gas and, presumably, air then the only other possibility is that the timing is off and the spark is not arriving at the proper time. To check the timing remove the spark plugs from all four cylinders. Place your finger over the spark plug hole of the number one cylinder (the front plug unless you have a V drive) and turn the engine by hand until the number one piston is coming up on the compression stroke. You will feel it pushing air out through the spark plug hole under your finger. Turn the engine over until the crank pin on the shaft sticking out of the flywheel at the front of the engine is vertically in line with the timing mark on the flywheel cover. If you go past top dead center (TDC) go on two full turns back to TDC (going one turn will get you to TDC on the exhaust stroke the rotor will point the wrong way and you won’t feel the air pressing on your finger). The points in the distributor should then be just opening. To check, undo the two screws in the distributor cap, remove it and observe the points. Loosen the cap screw in the hold down clamp at the base of the distributor. Slowly turn the distributor until the points are just beginning to open. There is an easy-to-make tool for this which consists of a small, two-wire, 12 volt bulb in a socket with alligator clamps soldered onto each wire coming out of the socket. Attach the clips to the points assembly on opposite sides of the points then turn on the ignition and as you move the distributor the points will open, turning on the light, then close, turning it off. You can make one for a couple of bucks and it will make life a lot easier. You can also use a volt meter the same way. With the points just opening at TDC tighten the cap screw on the hold down clamp. Now rotate the engine until the points are fully open and measure the gap with a feeler gage. If it is right, proceed. If it is off, losen the screw holding the points base plate to the distributor and move the stationary side in or out until the gap is correct. Recheck and adjust the TDC setting as above. Changing the gap will alter the timing. At this time look at the rotor on the top of the distributor shaft and mentally note where it is pointing. Put the cap back on and make sure that the wire at which the rotor is pointing is the wire to the number one spark plug. The firing order is 1-2-4-3. Both the rotor and the wide protrusion in the side of the distributor points plate (which fits into a slot in the distributor cap to align it) should point at 9 o'clock (looking down on the top of the distributor while facing the flywheel). Make sure that the plug wire for #1 cylinder goes in the 9 o'clock position, #2 plug wire goes in the 12 o'clock position, #4 plug wire goes in the 3 o'clock position, and #3 plug wire goes in the 6 o'clock position. Check to make sure that all of the wires are firmly stuck into the distributor cap and the coil. It is very easy to get a plug wire (or four) misplaced if you have taken them off for any reason. If you have a Cat 27 as I did, God bless as it is a contortionist's nightmare to get at the distributor and everything has to be done one handed. Please be very careful if you can smell gas during this exercise. This is a great way to blow your boat up and you with it. Turn the blower on and leave it on when cranking. Good luck.
I have posted this before but you might find it useful. TIMING THE A4 If you have spark and gas and, presumably, air then the only other possibility is that the timing is off and the spark is not arriving at the proper time. To check the timing remove the spark plugs from all four cylinders. Place your finger over the spark plug hole of the number one cylinder (the front plug unless you have a V drive) and turn the engine by hand until the number one piston is coming up on the compression stroke. You will feel it pushing air out through the spark plug hole under your finger. Turn the engine over until the crank pin on the shaft sticking out of the flywheel at the front of the engine is vertically in line with the timing mark on the flywheel cover. If you go past top dead center (TDC) go on two full turns back to TDC (going one turn will get you to TDC on the exhaust stroke the rotor will point the wrong way and you won’t feel the air pressing on your finger). The points in the distributor should then be just opening. To check, undo the two screws in the distributor cap, remove it and observe the points. Loosen the cap screw in the hold down clamp at the base of the distributor. Slowly turn the distributor until the points are just beginning to open. There is an easy-to-make tool for this which consists of a small, two-wire, 12 volt bulb in a socket with alligator clamps soldered onto each wire coming out of the socket. Attach the clips to the points assembly on opposite sides of the points then turn on the ignition and as you move the distributor the points will open, turning on the light, then close, turning it off. You can make one for a couple of bucks and it will make life a lot easier. You can also use a volt meter the same way. With the points just opening at TDC tighten the cap screw on the hold down clamp. Now rotate the engine until the points are fully open and measure the gap with a feeler gage. If it is right, proceed. If it is off, losen the screw holding the points base plate to the distributor and move the stationary side in or out until the gap is correct. Recheck and adjust the TDC setting as above. Changing the gap will alter the timing. At this time look at the rotor on the top of the distributor shaft and mentally note where it is pointing. Put the cap back on and make sure that the wire at which the rotor is pointing is the wire to the number one spark plug. The firing order is 1-2-4-3. Both the rotor and the wide protrusion in the side of the distributor points plate (which fits into a slot in the distributor cap to align it) should point at 9 o'clock (looking down on the top of the distributor while facing the flywheel). Make sure that the plug wire for #1 cylinder goes in the 9 o'clock position, #2 plug wire goes in the 12 o'clock position, #4 plug wire goes in the 3 o'clock position, and #3 plug wire goes in the 6 o'clock position. Check to make sure that all of the wires are firmly stuck into the distributor cap and the coil. It is very easy to get a plug wire (or four) misplaced if you have taken them off for any reason. If you have a Cat 27 as I did, God bless as it is a contortionist's nightmare to get at the distributor and everything has to be done one handed. Please be very careful if you can smell gas during this exercise. This is a great way to blow your boat up and you with it. Turn the blower on and leave it on when cranking. Good luck.
Added Thoughts
Leon: Looks like you have gotten quite a bit of response to your problem....A couple of things as I look over some of the comments from others....If the white smoke is coming from the engine room and not the exhaust I would venture to say that what you are seeing is some of the paint buring off the hot engine items like exhaust manifold or the like...If this is not the case then you could be having some cooling fluid coming by a gasket that did not seal. Speaking of the paint...This may be some of your problem...If all the sparkplug and distributor wires and sparkplugs were painted there is a good change that all of this paint is causing a grounding effect and you may be losing some of your charge voltage thru paint grounding, thus the reduction in output power. Just some after thoughts....DAVE
Leon: Looks like you have gotten quite a bit of response to your problem....A couple of things as I look over some of the comments from others....If the white smoke is coming from the engine room and not the exhaust I would venture to say that what you are seeing is some of the paint buring off the hot engine items like exhaust manifold or the like...If this is not the case then you could be having some cooling fluid coming by a gasket that did not seal. Speaking of the paint...This may be some of your problem...If all the sparkplug and distributor wires and sparkplugs were painted there is a good change that all of this paint is causing a grounding effect and you may be losing some of your charge voltage thru paint grounding, thus the reduction in output power. Just some after thoughts....DAVE
Throw more money into the water
I had the test sailing again with the repair shop master yesterday (The repair shop still kept my boat in the dock). There was no smoking anymore. However, there were some difficulties on the reverse ("Reverse" was not very responsive), no problem on the forward and the speed wass still the issue. I had only about 2 knts even with the full throttle. I could hear the engine running noise getting higher, but not helping the boat speed. The shop master told me that it might be the fuel problem (e.g anywhere between the fuel tanke and carburetor), tranmission problem, or even the problem of fouling on the boat bottom. I have to put more money for them to do the diagnosis job ....just like to throw the money into a bottomless hole.
I had the test sailing again with the repair shop master yesterday (The repair shop still kept my boat in the dock). There was no smoking anymore. However, there were some difficulties on the reverse ("Reverse" was not very responsive), no problem on the forward and the speed wass still the issue. I had only about 2 knts even with the full throttle. I could hear the engine running noise getting higher, but not helping the boat speed. The shop master told me that it might be the fuel problem (e.g anywhere between the fuel tanke and carburetor), tranmission problem, or even the problem of fouling on the boat bottom. I have to put more money for them to do the diagnosis job ....just like to throw the money into a bottomless hole.
carburator
Hello, I would not be surprised if your carb was gummed up with varnish, etc. If it were my boat, before I did anything else I would rebuild the carb, and check the fuel line. Good luck, Barry
Hello, I would not be surprised if your carb was gummed up with varnish, etc. If it were my boat, before I did anything else I would rebuild the carb, and check the fuel line. Good luck, Barry
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