So--any opinions or recommendations out there for a portable, compact, jump-starter battery that will crank a 3-cylinder (1.5 liter) Yanmar 3JH3E? Say, VicTsing 400 A or other?
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Portable emergency jump-starter battery for Yanmar 3JH3E?
- Thread starter Kings Gambit
- Start date
A few years ago our starter battery died during a cruise while at anchor in Parks Bay. I carry a set of jumper cables so I connected our house bank to the starter battery, waited a few minutes and the 4JH2-TE started right up. That was enough to motor over to Friday Harbor and pick up a new starter battery.
Does your 38E boat have a house bank separate from the starter battery? Jumper cables sounds like an inexpensive solution to me, IMHO.
Does your 38E boat have a house bank separate from the starter battery? Jumper cables sounds like an inexpensive solution to me, IMHO.
Stick with a standard AGM "Jump Pack" not one of the LiPo jump packs. I have now tested & owned a fair number of them and NONE of them have met their claims and all have FAILED to start diesel engines with actual "dead" batteries.. One of these (NOCO) claimed 1000A and it could barely muster a peak in-rush of 162A (Fluke 376). When I used a standard AGM battery jump pack the peak in-rush, on the same dead bank, after being tried with the LiPo pack, was measured at 367A. The peak on one of them lasted for a maximum of about 0.75 seconds before the voltage began plummeting.
I honestly don't know how these companies get away with the claims they make and their complete denial of OHM's law.... I mean really 600A - 1000A on 10GA wire? Who do they think they are kidding.....
I also had one where the leads got so hot they physically de-soldered themselves. For a car they are marginal at best for a boat with a diesel and big dead batteries, save your money and get an AGM based jump pack with a 20Ah to 30Ah battery...
I have posted this here before...
These little jump packs are entertaining for the size and the price they have come down to, but...
I bought a Noco GB-30 but it failed to start 3 boats so I returned it. I then bought the Noco GB-40 it too failed to start boats with dead batteries. I have since tried others and they all failed and some failed DANGEROUSLY by physically de-soldering themselves....
With the Noco's, the "capacity" of the battery is simply too small to jump large marine batteries at low states of charge. I unscrewed and opened up the Noco GB-40, which claims 1000A (peak), and inside I found a 2150mAh battery which equates to just 2.15 Ah.
This is considerably smaller than the battery that powers my freaking iPad which is 7,340 mAh or 7.340 Ah. I have gone back to using my AGM based jump pack, which is 22Ah... If these little lithium jump packs can get upwards of 20Ah +, with larger cables, I may jump back in but the Noco was nowhere near that and as far as I am concerned it is nothing more than a misleading scam with completely bogus specs. I physically tested it with with Fluke equipment it it is so far from the bogus claims that it's not even laughable.
On top of the bogus claims the soldering inside the Noco is horrific and the relay that passes all the current is rated at 70A.... A 70A relay to pass 1000A does note ven pass the straight faced test... A friend who is also an electrician bought a no-name Chinese jump pack off Amazon and on the first use the cables got so hot that it unsoldered itself. I bought a different Chinese one and SAME THING. This is because 10GA or 8GA wire can not handle 200A+ without getting VERY hot. The connectors used for passing all this 600A to 1000A of claimed current come out of the RC hobby industry for powering RC cars. They were never designed to handle the starting current of a CAR, TRUCK or BOAT engine...
Also be very wary of how the mAh rating (1000mAh is 1 Ah) is derived. For example is it a 30C, 10C, 2C discharge or a 0.2C discharge to earn that mAh rating? These batteries are often asked to supply a 30C plus load (30X Ah capacity) and on diesels often in excess of 40C... Even a massive 12,000 mAh jump pack battery (12Ah my Noco GB-40 was 2.15 Ah's) delivering 400A is a 33C load or 33X its Ah capacity.
What is the Peukert of these jump packs at 33 X Ah capacity? My Noco claimed a peak amperage of 1000A (400A cranking). At 400A (through a 70A relay) that is a 186C load or 186 X the 2.15 Ah capacity of my Noco GB-40. What is the Peukert of that 2.15Ah battery at 186C????? Anyone who tells you lithium has no Peukert is simply full of bovine dung..
Most of these packs rely on your battery not being completely dead. They will actually start a motor without the batteries in place easier so be wary of those shady & misleading videos. The reason for this is the jump pack is not wasting precious starting current/capacity charging your dead battery first, reaching voltage equilibrium, before you hit the key. Believe it or not removing the dead battery from the equation can actually make it easier on the jump pack so don't be fooled by that sort of bovine dung....
Peukert exists, even for Lithium.. For a diesel with glow plugs, and a large dead battery, they may or may not start the motor. If the battery is below about 10V good luck especially if you also need glow...
Unfortunately the snake oil did not work, for what I needed a jump pack to do. Being a marine electrician I get to jump boats on a regular basis and these little LiPO packs generally fail miserably.
I have gone back to my AGM jump packs which are 22 Ah not 2.1Ah (one is actually 30Ah).... If I start seeing 20+Ah lithium jump packs, from legitimate companies, with 6GA+ cables, not some Chinese scammer, I may jump back in. With 10GA wires, 70A relays and miniature batteries, with no real data to back up the mAh rating claim, no thanks...
Bottom line: Design your on-board DC system correctly with proper isolation and redundancy, and there is no need to carry any jump pack.
I honestly don't know how these companies get away with the claims they make and their complete denial of OHM's law.... I mean really 600A - 1000A on 10GA wire? Who do they think they are kidding.....
I also had one where the leads got so hot they physically de-soldered themselves. For a car they are marginal at best for a boat with a diesel and big dead batteries, save your money and get an AGM based jump pack with a 20Ah to 30Ah battery...
I have posted this here before...
These little jump packs are entertaining for the size and the price they have come down to, but...
I bought a Noco GB-30 but it failed to start 3 boats so I returned it. I then bought the Noco GB-40 it too failed to start boats with dead batteries. I have since tried others and they all failed and some failed DANGEROUSLY by physically de-soldering themselves....
With the Noco's, the "capacity" of the battery is simply too small to jump large marine batteries at low states of charge. I unscrewed and opened up the Noco GB-40, which claims 1000A (peak), and inside I found a 2150mAh battery which equates to just 2.15 Ah.
This is considerably smaller than the battery that powers my freaking iPad which is 7,340 mAh or 7.340 Ah. I have gone back to using my AGM based jump pack, which is 22Ah... If these little lithium jump packs can get upwards of 20Ah +, with larger cables, I may jump back in but the Noco was nowhere near that and as far as I am concerned it is nothing more than a misleading scam with completely bogus specs. I physically tested it with with Fluke equipment it it is so far from the bogus claims that it's not even laughable.
On top of the bogus claims the soldering inside the Noco is horrific and the relay that passes all the current is rated at 70A.... A 70A relay to pass 1000A does note ven pass the straight faced test... A friend who is also an electrician bought a no-name Chinese jump pack off Amazon and on the first use the cables got so hot that it unsoldered itself. I bought a different Chinese one and SAME THING. This is because 10GA or 8GA wire can not handle 200A+ without getting VERY hot. The connectors used for passing all this 600A to 1000A of claimed current come out of the RC hobby industry for powering RC cars. They were never designed to handle the starting current of a CAR, TRUCK or BOAT engine...
Also be very wary of how the mAh rating (1000mAh is 1 Ah) is derived. For example is it a 30C, 10C, 2C discharge or a 0.2C discharge to earn that mAh rating? These batteries are often asked to supply a 30C plus load (30X Ah capacity) and on diesels often in excess of 40C... Even a massive 12,000 mAh jump pack battery (12Ah my Noco GB-40 was 2.15 Ah's) delivering 400A is a 33C load or 33X its Ah capacity.
What is the Peukert of these jump packs at 33 X Ah capacity? My Noco claimed a peak amperage of 1000A (400A cranking). At 400A (through a 70A relay) that is a 186C load or 186 X the 2.15 Ah capacity of my Noco GB-40. What is the Peukert of that 2.15Ah battery at 186C????? Anyone who tells you lithium has no Peukert is simply full of bovine dung..
Most of these packs rely on your battery not being completely dead. They will actually start a motor without the batteries in place easier so be wary of those shady & misleading videos. The reason for this is the jump pack is not wasting precious starting current/capacity charging your dead battery first, reaching voltage equilibrium, before you hit the key. Believe it or not removing the dead battery from the equation can actually make it easier on the jump pack so don't be fooled by that sort of bovine dung....
Peukert exists, even for Lithium.. For a diesel with glow plugs, and a large dead battery, they may or may not start the motor. If the battery is below about 10V good luck especially if you also need glow...
Unfortunately the snake oil did not work, for what I needed a jump pack to do. Being a marine electrician I get to jump boats on a regular basis and these little LiPO packs generally fail miserably.
I have gone back to my AGM jump packs which are 22 Ah not 2.1Ah (one is actually 30Ah).... If I start seeing 20+Ah lithium jump packs, from legitimate companies, with 6GA+ cables, not some Chinese scammer, I may jump back in. With 10GA wires, 70A relays and miniature batteries, with no real data to back up the mAh rating claim, no thanks...
Bottom line: Design your on-board DC system correctly with proper isolation and redundancy, and there is no need to carry any jump pack.
I had one of those jump start packs from WM and the first few years was great
but after a few years and lack of not needing it and day went to help some one else did and did not working and found later corrision have taken over.
What did about 5 years ago was add a marine off and on switch just like a 1/2/both switch from my house bank to my starter battery and works like a charm no matter how dead my start battery is and ready to go in 5 seconds in a emergency.
Mine was so easy but not so easy for everyone else but if good wiring it has been good for years no problem ever.
Nick
but after a few years and lack of not needing it and day went to help some one else did and did not working and found later corrision have taken over.
What did about 5 years ago was add a marine off and on switch just like a 1/2/both switch from my house bank to my starter battery and works like a charm no matter how dead my start battery is and ready to go in 5 seconds in a emergency.
Mine was so easy but not so easy for everyone else but if good wiring it has been good for years no problem ever.
Nick
I do have a switch-connection between the house bank and the starter battery. The starter battery can be isolated from the house bank; normally, however, it is not. Strange, but the compressor on the fridge evidently will not come on unless the starter battery is connected.
Well that tells me some how the start battery is connected to the start battery
and not to the house batteries or the start battery is not really disconnected or not
isolated from maybe the house battery,are you sure the start battery is not connected
really connected to maybe the 1-2 -both switch or maybe the house bank is too low of charge to run the ref and using the added charge of the start battery and that is not good.
I would check the house batteries.
Nick
and not to the house batteries or the start battery is not really disconnected or not
isolated from maybe the house battery,are you sure the start battery is not connected
really connected to maybe the 1-2 -both switch or maybe the house bank is too low of charge to run the ref and using the added charge of the start battery and that is not good.
I would check the house batteries.
Nick
The house batteries alone will not start the compressor even if the batteries are brand new and fully charged. The house batteries alone will run the fridge compressor after it has kicked on.
That is odd, your house battery should have all the voltage and amperage you need to start and run the refrigeration. I would get to the bottom of that because having to leave your starter battery connected to the house circuit is where you risk taking it down to a no-start situation. My starter battery sits unused, and disconnected most all the time, it is only there to perform what you are looking to do with a jump-start pack.
Apparently, the boat came wired that way from Germany(?) with its Bosch batteries. I haven't changed anything since I bought it in 2004 except the routine battery replacements. It's doubtful the previous owner changed anything, so I don't know. That's one of the reasons I've been thinking about a jump-start battery pack since there is no generator aboard. Perhaps the compressor on the fridge is faulty.
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Compressors do age and as they get older they may require more power to start. It seems your starter battery may have been wired in to act as booster for compressor starts. Now I doubt that was a factory install and probably a PO modification to deal with a hard to start compressor. It could also have to do with the distance from the battery bank to the refrigerator; check for voltage drop in the wiring from the batteries to the compressor. Perhaps the compressor could use an auxiliary capacitor to assist with a hard start. First thing is to figure out the circuitry as "to what goes where and why". The useful life of an old compressor can be extended by an auxiliary capacitor. It's next to impossible to diagnose the problem online so it may be worth to have a refrigeration tech look at the system.
my brother in law runs a tow company. on his recommendation, here's what i carry. it has saved 6 boats and 3 cars so far in its 3 years living on the boat. by the way Clore has an excellent tech support site where they'll answer battery questions (maybe even about peukert constants ) . in winter, the Clore moves to the car trunk.
Clore Automotive
Truck PAC ES6000 3000 Peak Amp 12V Jump Starter
4.7 out of 5 stars 644
$209. 99 or less
Clore Automotive
Truck PAC ES6000 3000 Peak Amp 12V Jump Starter
4.7 out of 5 stars 644
$209. 99 or less
So, it seems that disconnecting dead batteries and hooking the jump pack directly to the cables to the starter may get the engine started easier than connecting it directly,to the dead batteries. That was my experience as well. I suppose opening the compression levers to get the engine turning over, then closing them would also help.
Greg
I find it continuously fascinating that skippers will LUG these POSs around, in spite of Maine Sail's remarkably cogent presentation.
Like anything else in boating, there are options.
1. Design and install a relatively bulletproof electrical system, and understand how a simple 1-2-B switch actually works. Make the switch a USE only switch instead of a charging AND use switch. Wire your alternators and chargers to the house bank and use ACRs (of various types) to charge your reserve bank. In most cases, all your problems will disappear. It's NOT magic. And in all cases, the way to wire a boat has been discussed, with links to HOW TO DO IT RIGHT so many times it makes my head spin. Both Maine Sail and I have documented them, here and on our C34 website for years and years, and he and I have both helped countless skippers do it offline, personally.
2. Drag a POS jumper pack around and fiddle with wires just when you need a start in a bloody EMERGENCY. Really, why would anyone make that choice?
With a solid and reliable electrical system, if one bank goes dead, all you have to do is turn a blinkin' switch. NO FIDDLING WITH WIRES just when you NEED a quick start.
As always, your boat, your choice.
But, really, c'mon...The ONLY logical answer I got for using one of the POS jump packs was: "I use it for my truck and at home." OK, I'd almost buy that, but then why are ALL his BOAT, his CAR and his HOUSE candidates for lousy electrical systems that NEED a jump pack? Why wouldn't attention be paid to installing something that actually works properly to begin with?!?
KG, I know you know your stuff. I had this problem last August. I called it, for many years, my "Fridge Follies."!!!
Turned out the electronic module was dying over the years and finally gave up the ghost.
If that is your issue, and it may well be, contact RParts in Santa Cruz. They have a module for my 30 years old Adler Barbour Cold Machine, took me all of 3 hours to install it. $230 including s/h.
Otherwise, check the voltage at the fridge compressor end. I'm sure you've done that already.
Good luck.
PS - I wrote my last screed for others who may be thinking jump packs are the way to go, and to discourage them from that.
It rarely is. I did ALL the troubleshooting from my A/B manual and Kollmann's website. 99% of fridge issues, as Richard says, are electrical. And older modules fail well before the compressors do. I traced it to the module.Perhaps the compressor on the fridge is faulty.
KG, FYI, I wrote this up in a separate thread last August. Do a search on RParts and you'll find all the contact info, too.
Thanks Stu and Maine Sail for your comments and suggestions. I probably will not add one of those things to my boat equipment. I think a review and possible upgrade of my 12-volt power system would be more productive.
The only dead battery I've experienced where I could not start the engine in nearly 30 yr of boating was on a chartered boat--a Cape Dory 28, way back at the beginning in FL. Also around the time I still had anchors dragging for no apparent reason!! I sailed the thing most of the way home, beating, until I finally called the charter company on my hand-held VHF (a good reason to have one) to come and jump me.