Port-Starboard Question

Jackdaw · Oct 21, 2014

Gunni said:
I'm assuming that this question was relative to a river race. Quantico is way up the Potomac. Difficult sailing. There you can expect that the wind will roughly follow the flow of the river with near constant wind shifts. You don't want to be pushed leeward off the course due to that and lots of wind shadowing from the high shorelines. The best course is almost always mid-course. So you duck and fight for what almost certainly will be a wind shift to starboard.

OK All might be true, but I still don't understand why you think ducking and then tacking is better that tacking on top of him. Tacking into someone's spilled air is very slow.

Kings Gambit · Oct 21, 2014

Most of this, in the end, is dependant on the design/class of the two boats that are meeting. If it's a PHRF race and a faster boat that can out point me lee-bows me, I know that in a matter of a few minutes HE WILL BE shadowing me with really bad air as he pulls away and starts to cross over my line. I'm only ahead of him to begin with b/c I'm a better starter and got the drop on the guy at the horn, but now he wants the right side of the course and he has to get by me to get over there; but, ulitmately will not have to duck me b/c he can just outrun me after lee-bowing, and cross over in front further UP course! So-- maybe I'll tack away to port right away and head for that side of the course instead of waiting for his bad air. I suppose he'll catch me eventually & go over the top; so it becomes a zero sum game there if I can't stay away from him!

Jackdaw · Oct 21, 2014

Kings Gambit said:
Most of this, in the end, is dependant on the design/class of the two boats that are meeting. If it's a PHRF race and a faster boat lee-bows me, I know that in a matter of a few minutes HE WILL BE shadowing me with really bad air as he pulls away and starts to cross over my line. I'm only ahead of him to begin with b/c I'm a better starter and got the drop on the guy at the horn, but now he wants the right side of the course and he has to get by me to get over there; but, ulitmately will not have to duck me b/c he can just outrun me after lee-bowing, and cross over in front further UP course! So-- maybe I'll tack away to port and head for that side of the course instead of waiting for his bad air. I suppose he'll catch me eventually & go over the top; so it becomes a zero sum game there if I can't stay away from him!

Read the article I posted.

If you want to make 99% SURE a boat will continue on port, wave them across. Often they will ask this of you, with that 'cross or tack' question. That's EXACTLY what they are trying to do.

A lee-bow move is a high-level racing or OD maneuver. In typical PHRF racing the port boat simply ducks. They don't have the skill or knowledge to pull it off. Or it won't work against the boat they are facing.

You are right... in handicap racing, the #1 goal of slower rated boats is to stay in their own clean air.

Kings Gambit · Oct 21, 2014

OK--good point!

Jackdaw · Oct 21, 2014

rpwillia said:
Not all of these are relevant per the rules, but ...

1. My boat is a Catalina 310, other boat was a Catalina 309
2. Both boats have a PHRF of 186 per the CBYRA
2a. I was in Spinnaker fleet, 309 was in Non Spinnaker fleet
3. We were about 1/2 mile from the next mark
4. Wind was blowing about 20 knots from the west
5. We were in the middle of the river
6. Boat on starboard tack was heading toward the mark on a beam reach due South
7. I was on port, but not pinching as I wanted speed and distance to be able to tack to the mark and was heading NW
8. I initially was going to cross about 25 yards in front of starboard boat.
9. There was no wind shift, wind was honking steady at 20 knots
10. Stbd boat yelled starboard and came up 5-10 degrees
10a. I adjusted course to maintain clearance
10b. Stbd boat came up again
10c. I adjusted course up to maintain clearance
10d. Stbd boat came up again
15. At this point I decided if we were not rubbing we were not racing, and let the other captain know I did not appreciate being hunted with appropriate gestures and discussion. I think I made them blush.

I would note all the rules cited do mention proper course and it is relevant. From the Muskegon YC instructions (http://www.muskegonyachtclub.org/docs/racing/ProperCourse.pdf) -
"Proper Course is defined as 'A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boat referred to the rule using the term'."

I would note that captain/owner was not at the wheel, it was some young guy in his 20's; and yes I am inferring judgement as it was not the helmsman's boat on the line.

I would also note that since he made 3 maneuvers in less than a minute he may not have known what his proper course was. Also based on what I saw of the other boats in his fleet (they were slightly ahead of me), they all gained on him while he tried to play games with me.

OK! Thx for adding the detail. My take based on this...

Part of your comment does not make sense to me, about where the boats where and met.

If you both are heading to the same mark and your are .5 miles from it, how on earth do you meet with him on a beam reach and you close hauled?

I would assume if that were true, if he is reaching and is fetching (making) the mark to the south of him (mark#1) If so, where are you going?

Now if he is just way off the wind, and you are closed hauled to mark west of you at mark#2, how could you adjust by coming up to try and get over him? You would have been close hauled and unable to.

It does not make sense.

My guess is that you were both reaching towards a windward mark somewhere between and windward of you both. It explains how you could come up to meet his turn. If also might explain why he turned up, when he saw how far off he wind he was.

In most meetings on a windward leg, boats meet a 90 closing angle and don't have a lot of options. I'm guessing you two met at closer to 120, and that gave all the room to 'play'

But in any case, it does not matter. He was on starboard. He can go anywhere he wants. I'm not sure why he announced 'starboard' a full minute before you would have met...that's forever in racing and most do that maybe 10 seconds before potential contact.

You are quite wrong about proper course. That link your posted for sure defines what proper course is, same as what I said... And it also says that it ONLY IS EFFECT during these three exceptions to ROW I mentioned. None of those factored here. 95% of the time when racing, a boat has no concept of proper course, and is controlled only by ROW. Like here. He was ROW. You have to stay clear. This concept is absolutely fundimental to sailboat racing and I'm actually shocked at how many people brought it up here when it has no bearing whatsoever.

Also, be careful. Your swearing at him is protestable under rule 69, obligation to not commot gross misconduct, which includes good manners and sportsmanship. I've seen boats tossed for swearing. And you were swearing at a ROW boat to boot!

Jackdaw · Oct 29, 2014

rpwillia said:
All, Apologies for note responding sooner, it's that darn work thing. Anyway I did go back and read back, especially what JackDaw said.

"... The real question was when the rules actually apply, WHEN BOATS MEET. If you didn't make him change his established course to avoid you, you are OK. If you did make him change, you fouled him (Rule 10). If he made a course change so late that you could not avoid, he broke 16.1"

I don't think I was clear that when he called starboard I was going to pass in front of him comfortably. I was nearly clear of him when he turn up toward me and we had 3 perhaps 4 boat lengths at most. I adjusted up again to gain more room and he turned up again. After I adjusted again and he turned up again I was pretty steamed as he was trying hard to force me to tack under him. Originally I was not close hauled (40 degrees) and he was on a beam reach as he was running for the mark (which he did not make and had to tack). With the wind I had a reef in but everyone was overpowered.

Jackdaw, you drawing is correct if you move him off to the right as I was in position to clear him comfortable. I will say I raced with him one year and he believes in not pointing up high and going for boat speed (turn a 1/2 mile lead to a 1/2 mile deficit) so he was at least 30 degrees off the wind. I was also not pinching until we started the dance. After his 3rd turn up if I had tacked I would have been directly in his path and a collision would have been likely.

I do appreciate all of the discussion as I have learned a few things.

Gotcha.... that helps. I'm still not sure how two boats going to windward and meeting can continually turn up and up and up, but I was not there and so will maybe never know! ;^)

Regarding proper course. I got quite a few IMs and emails about that. Please only use the RRS (and your local SIs if applicable) when formulating opinions about rules.

I think the biggest confusion results from the wording of the DEFINITION of 'Proper Course' in the Racing Rules. It says:

"Proper Course - A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal."

I think many people read that last part and assume that a boat always has proper course AFTER the start, when what it is trying to do is turn off any use of the three rules mentioned above BEFORE the start. I'll say it again... saving for the 3 exceptions, 95% of the time a boat is racing is has dos not have to sail PROPER COURSE and the ROW boat can go anywhere it wants. The only big time you see proper course is for a short time right after the start, where rule 17 makes it often illegal to luff windward boats. Him trying to make you tack under him where he was is a perfectly legal thing for him to do.

Stu Jackson · Oct 29, 2014

Jackdaw said:
Gotcha.... that helps. I'm still not sure how two boats going to windward and meeting can continually turn up and up and up, but I was not there and so will maybe never know! ;^)

Jack, I had the same issue until the OP said the other boat was on a beam reach! I guess: That's How!

Kings Gambit · Oct 29, 2014

Jackdaw said:
Gotcha.... that helps. I'm still not sure how two boats going to windward and meeting can continually turn up and up and up, but I was not there and so will maybe never know! ;^).

Regarding the OP's statement:
I don't think I was clear that when he called starboard I was going to pass in front of him comfortably. I was nearly clear of him when he turn up toward me and we had 3 perhaps 4 boat lengths at most. I adjusted up again to gain more room and he turned up again. After I adjusted again and he turned up again I was pretty steamed as he was trying hard to force me to tack under him. Originally I was not close hauled (40 degrees) and he was on a beam reach as he was running for the mark (which he did not make and had to tack). With the wind I had a reef in but everyone was overpowered.

If a port-tacking yacht was already crossing my path, and I was hailing him with "Starboard", and I was on a beam reach [probably to duck the ?!? guy] with the apparent wind far enough aft to come up; I would shoot for his stern, and follow it as he passed, coming up harder on the wind. Also, who's knows what point of sail these guys were really on. Above the OP says the starboard tacker was on a beam reach "running" for the [up wind?] mark. He then says this guy on a beam reach heading for an upwind mark couldn't lay it; then, why the hell would he even be on beam reach? None of this makes sense.

Jackdaw · Oct 29, 2014

I belong to several groups that discuss and adjudicate RRS situations, and those groups will not even listen to a question if the question is not diagrammed in Boat Scenario.

http://boats.sourceforge.net/

It's a great tool, free and easy to use. Ray, wanna give it a go???

My take, west is UP, as is wind direction. You are YELLOW, slightly footing to windward. BLUE is WAY off the wind, reaching and making crappy VMG to mark. (but somehow in FRONT of you?!?). He comes up at #2, and you do to. repeat, repeat. But what happened??