Port-Starboard Question

Scotty C-M · Oct 20, 2014

I’m sure that there will be a variety of opinions. In my opinion you are the give way vessel. My reasoning is:

Rule 10: You were the Port Tack Boat.
Rule 24.2: You were not taking a penalty turn. Nor were you on a different leg. If I read your post correctly, you were on the same leg, different tacks.
Rule 16.1: You were given room to make a course change. The other boat did not turn into you. He did not cause, nor almost cause, a collision. You are given no right of way by this rule.
Rule 16.2: You were passing in front of the boat, so this rule also does not give you any right of way as it would if you were passing behind them.
Rule 18.1: You were not in the zone of a mark, so no overlap is called for.

There is no rule that says that once he yells starboard he must keep a steady course.

The area of debate is what constitutes a proper course, which is the shortest course to finish. In general, my experience is that there is a wide range given as to the heading on any given tack. This is to allow boats to take advantage of conditions of wind, waves and the changes expected of them. In other words, the other boat can harden up and still be sailing a proper course. If the boat were forcing you both well away from the mark you might make a case here, but from your description it sounds like he was just forcing you to take a tack. Part of the game.

Let me know if I've missed something here.

Thanks,

Scotty

Kings Gambit · Oct 20, 2014

So, the starboard-tack boat came higher to attempt to pass in front of you? If he CAN come higher and the course being sailed is a beat to the weather mark, wouldn't coming higher be the proper course? Your job in that case [to avoid collision] would be to pass under his stern or tack away. Besides, hailing "starboard" is just a precaution to let the other guy know that he's in the give way situation in case he, or perhaps an inexperienced crew of his boat, is doping off at the helm and not keeping a proper lookout to leeward. Your casual, Saturday (or Sunday) Club racer is not always attentive!

[It's tantamount to announcing "on guard" during a chess game to warn your opponent that his queen is en prise (in danger of being captured). It's not mandatory: it's a courtesy heads up; the opponent is supposed to be watching the board [and seeing what is there for himself.]

Gunni · Oct 20, 2014

Yes, technically you are right, however he will claim a wind shift took him higher and you need to yield. Racing can suck the fun out of recreational sailing (as you know).

Kings Gambit · Oct 20, 2014

Scotty C-M said:
I’m sure that there will be a variety of opinions. In my opinion you are the give way vessel. My reasoning is:

Rule 10: You were the Port Tack Boat.
Rule 24.2: You were not taking a penalty turn. Nor were you on a different leg. If I read your post correctly, you were on the same leg, different tacks.
Rule 16.1: You were given room to make a course change. The other boat did not turn into you. He did not cause, nor almost cause, a collision. You are given no right of way by this rule.
Rule 16.2: You were passing in front of the boat, so this rule also does not give you any right of way as it would if you were passing behind them.
Rule 18.1: You were not in the zone of a mark, so no overlap is called for.

There is no rule that says that once he yells starboard he must keep a steady course.

The area of debate is what constitutes a proper course, which is the shortest course to finish. In general, my experience is that there is a wide range given as to the heading on any given tack. This is to allow boats to take advantage of conditions of wind, waves and the changes expected of them. In other words, the other boat can harden up and still be sailing a proper course. If the boat were forcing you both well away from the mark you might make a case here, but from your description it sounds like he was just forcing you to take a tack. Part of the game.

Let me know if I've missed something here.

Thanks,

Scotty

I think you pretty much have it correct, in my opinion. [See also Post #3. KG]

Jackdaw · Oct 20, 2014

Guys,

Proper Course has NO BEARING HERE.

'Proper Course' is only mentioned three places in the RRS, and they are all exceptions to the basic ROW rules.
Rule 17: Overtaking to leeward …
Rule 18: Mark-Room
Rule 24.2: Interfering with another boat doing turns.

With you on port, a starboard boat going to windward can sail anywhere it wants. Anywhere. If he wants to luff up or turn down, all is good, he just has to leave time for you to react (Rule 16.1). Doing this in the extreme is stupid and a good way to make zero friends, but that's the rules. Most of the time, a boat going upwind will be sailing its optimal VMG angle and stay there.

As other said, racing uses the concept of Right Of Way (ROW), and not Stand On. A ROW boat can do what it wants. a give-way has to avoid.

With the exception of PROTEST and ROOM TO TACK, all communication between boats is advisory and non-binding. Nothing said officially gives up ROW.

What I don't understand is how the starboard boat could keep turning up and up and up. A close hauled boat only has a few degrees it can turn up before it luffs, then stalls.

So what happened? All of this was a dance. The real question was when the rules actually apply, WHEN BOATS MEET. If you didn't make him change his established course to avoid you, you are OK. If you did make him change, you fouled him (Rule 10). If he made a course change so late that you could not avoid, he broke 16.1

Jackdaw · Oct 20, 2014

Here is a real world example of where this can happen.

Two boats heading upwind, neither board or side of the course is favored.

I'm on starboard, and a port boat approaches and will not be able to cross. The other skipper yells to me, 'cross or tack'?

This is the age-old way or saying, 'let me cross over you, or I'll tack on you and lee-bow you all the way up the left side'.

I don't want either, I really want him to duck me. But he of course does not want that as it gives up gauge.

So I force the issue, I foot off, turn down slighty, and point my bow at him. Now he has to react much quicker. If he was not ready to tack, he's going to have to duck me.

This is not proper course, it's a tactical move to defend my position on the course. It happens hundreds of times a day. Racing.

weinie · Oct 21, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7_p1yrmsxA#t=125

Gunni · Oct 21, 2014

Jackdaw said:
What I don't understand is how the starboard boat could keep turning up and up and up. A close hauled boat only has a few degrees it can turn up before it luffs, then stalls. So what happened? All of this was a dance. The real question was when the rules actually apply, WHEN BOATS MEET. If you didn't make him change his established course to avoid you, you are OK. If you did make him change, you fouled him (Rule 10). If he made a course change so late that you could not avoid, he broke 16.1

What happened? What happens when you are in a race with a guy who doesn't know how to sail his boat, or has an idiot at the wheel. The # 1 excuse for incompetent helmanship is "we had a wind shift". I call it the "look what God did to us" excuse. Perhaps the best defense is to assume that the idiocy will continue, dip behind the guy and take the ROW. Well there, now I've given away the secret sauce! Just talking about it kills my zen.

Jackdaw · Oct 21, 2014

Gunni said:
What happened? What happens when you are in a race with a guy who doesn't know how to sail his boat, or has an idiot at the wheel. The # 1 excuse for incompetent helmanship is "we had a wind shift". I call it the "look what God did to us" excuse. Perhaps the best defense is to assume that the idiocy will continue, dip behind the guy and take the ROW. Well there, now I've given away the secret sauce! Just talking about it kills my zen.

Not sure what you are saying Gunni. The other guy (on starboard) has ROW and can sail anywhere he wants. The OP on port has to keep clear.

If starboard wants (and can) come up, he can. He's don't need to explain that to anyone.

If you duck him, you are still on port.

Gunni · Oct 21, 2014

Yes - Duck him and tack onto starboard. Give him a free sailing lesson before you take his wind and leave him behind.

Kings Gambit · Oct 21, 2014

Jackdaw said:
I'm on starboard, and a port boat approaches and will not be able to cross. The other skipper yells to me, 'cross or tack'?

This is the age-old way or saying, 'let me cross over you, or I'll tack on you and lee-bow you all the way up the left side'.

An idle threat?--if starboard-tacker is much below, or perhaps even on, the lay line; what will stb lee-bower really do or accomplish? Most likely---lose speed and turn a one-boat length disadvantage [ducking at full speed] into a two-boat length disadvantage [tacking to (attempt to) lee bow]. Even if successful, stb lee-bower will have to follow starboard-tacker around the weather mark, no? And, what if the wind backs a couple of degrees?

Jackdaw · Oct 21, 2014

Gunni said:
Yes - Duck him and tack onto starboard. Give him a free sailing lesson before you take his wind and leave him behind.

That makes no sense tactically. If you do that your first give up guage in the tack, and then lee-bow yourself. You'll never catch him.

Better to tack before he gets to you, lee-bow HIM, keeping him pinned in your bad air.

Jackdaw · Oct 21, 2014

Kings Gambit said:
An idle threat?--if starboard-tacker is much below, or perhaps even on, the lay line; what will stb lee-bower really do or accomplish? Most likely---lose speed and turn a one-boat length disadvantage [ducking at full speed] into a two-boat length disadvantage [tacking to (attempt to) lee bow]. Even if successful, stb lee-bower will have to follow starboard-tacker around the weather mark, no? And, what if the wind backs a couple of degrees?

I don't understand what you are saying... What does the lay line have to do with this?

This is NOT an idle threat from a port boat. If I'm starboard I do NOT want him to tack and camp on me. Having to fight your way out of a good lee-bow sucks. Often you end up tacking after a minute or so of bad air and low speed. If I really want to get left and think he might tack instead of ducking, there are times when I would think about letting him cross over. That's why they ask.

Kings Gambit · Oct 21, 2014

Jackdaw said:
I don't understand what you are saying... What does the lay line have to do with this?

This is NOT an idle threat from a port boat. If I'm starboard I do NOT want him to tack and camp on me. Having to fight your way out of a good lee-bow sucks. Often you end up tacking after a minute or so of bad air and low speed. If I really want to get left and think he might tack instead of ducking, there are times when I would think about letting him cross over.

If you're on stb tack on the lay line [or slightly below] and a port-tacker comes near you and tacks b/f crossing [which he cannot do, crossing ahead, that is], and the two of you carry this configuration to the weather mark [as you intimated above; post 7], won't you be between him and the mark upon arriving there? Also, how do you get into his bad air if you're essentially windward of him. Do I have this right? I'm assuming these two boats are competitively close to each other, as in a class race.

Jackdaw · Oct 21, 2014

Kings Gambit said:
If you're on stb tack on the lay line [or slightly below] and a port-tacker comes near you and tacks b/f crossing [which he cannot do, crossing, that is], and the two of you carry this configuration to the weather mark [as you intimated above], won't you be between him and the mark upon arriving there? Also, how do you get into his bad air if you're essentially windward of him. Do I have this right? I'm assuming these two boats are competitively close to each other, as in a class race.

Ah. After you get to the layline everything changes, and gets more complex. More so when them mark comes into play.

If you are on the starboard layline (or very close) and a port boat tacks just to leeward of you and stays just ahead, you have been leebowed. You're pinned. The wind bending off his sails turns back toward you, slowing it and giving you a knock. It is VERY hard to pass a a boat that does this to you unless you are a faster design. In one design, no way.

Lee bow. In this picture, YOU are starboard. Port lee-bows you.

So you both sail this way to the mark, him now the ROW boat as he is leeward (rules 11-12)

Once you get within three of his boat-lengths to the mark, rule 18 (mark room) comes into effect. As an inside boat with overlap (or clear ahead), he is entitled to mark room; room to make a seamanlike turn around the mark. You HAVE to give him room.

Note he has to be able to mark the mark to do this. He CANNOT tack in the zone, as he looses all rights. Often you will see a boat 'shoot the mark', luffing at the last minute in an effort to make the mark. Anyone near hates this guy.

Kings Gambit · Oct 21, 2014

So, assuming the guy (lee-bower) does not get away from me and cross my line somewhere down course; and I carry him under my bow, but slightly ahead still, until we arrive at the mark--now only a boat length or less slightly off my weather bow (i.e., I'm below it & so is he); I tack when I can just clear the mark on my port side then tack around it. (I'm assuming here that there are no other starboard tackers laying the mark in front of me at that time.) Can he [the lee-bower] acheive the inside overlap?; he's already beyond the mark by at least half a boat length by the time he gets to tack over to port.

Jackdaw · Oct 21, 2014

Kings Gambit said:
So, assuming the guy (lee-bower) does not get away from me and cross my line somewhere down course; and I carry him under my bow, but slightly ahead still, until we arrive at the mark--now only a boat length or less slightly off my weather bow (i.e., I'm below it & so is he); I tack when I can just clear the mark on my port side then tack around it. (I'm assuming here that there are no other starboard tackers laying the mark in front of me at that time.) Can he [the lee-bower] acheive the inside overlap?; he's already beyond the mark by at least half a boat length by the time he gets to tack over to port.

I'm assuming you mean UP the course.... going upwind to the weather mark is UP.

If he enters the 3 boat-length zone clear ahead or overlapped, he is entitled to room, IF he can make the mark without tacking. Once either of you tack in the zone you lose all 'room' rights. You really really don't want to have to tack in the zone, let alone twice!

If I was in front of you, I would make sure I could at least shoot the mark. Once in the zone, I'd look at you can call 'I have mark room',. At this point you have to give it to me. Then at the last moment luff up (bout NOT tack) and coast around the mark. Its not super fast but boats owe you room to do it.

If I'm not going to make it (way to leeward of the mark) then I'm screwed, I should have ducked under you earlier and not tried the leebow.

Moral of the story, don't go into the zone on starboard unless you are going to make it.

Gunni · Oct 21, 2014

I'm assuming that this question was relative to a river race. Quantico is way up the Potomac. Difficult sailing. There you can expect that the wind will roughly follow the flow of the river with near constant wind shifts. You don't want to be pushed leeward off the course due to that and lots of wind shadowing from the high shorelines. The best course is almost always mid-course. So you duck and fight for what almost certainly will be a wind shift to starboard.

Jackdaw · Oct 21, 2014

Essential Lee-bow reading.

http://www.sailingworld.com/how-to/essential-leebow