Point of Sail

[Joe]

I can settle this once and for all.

A broad reach is when I forget to pass DW the Ketchup and she has to get it herself.

OK, before getting to the end of this thread, it always seemed logical that close hauled referred to the sail, not the boat. If you are hauling your boat, then it is on a trailer. Beam reach would mean the boat beam. I think the real problem lies in the fact that even though points of sail refer to boat position relative to true wind, no one really knows for sure what true wind is, unless they have instruments that are calculating it on the fly. Its only one's best guess. So over time, the meaning has been corrupted, because we are trying to reference to a point we can't really define, once we are moving, so we get lazy and just go by apparent wind. Words are meant to describe or communicate facts. So if we are trying to communicate the direction of sailing, we would have to describe it relative to something that is constant. Apparent wind is not a constant, therefore it doesn't communicate much.

Maybe we could just create some new terms to describe sail trim besides close hauled, that would imply apparent wind. Sail trim angle relative to apparent wind is usually pretty consistent regardless of the boat speed and wind speed.

You don't need complicated instrument to determine true wind direction. At the expense starting another argument, I will restate that you can determine the approximated true wind direction by simply averaging your close hauled headings on starboard and port tack.

This is based on the premise that "close hauled" means sailing as close to the "no sail" zone as possible, making progress against the true wind direction. It does not mean that your sails are trimmed in tight as you try to maximize speed.

If you know your boat's tacking angle, which can be determined by averaging the headings on both tacks.... you can not only determine approx. direction, but more importantly, you can detect changes in true wind direction by watching your compass as you sail a straight line, close hauled course.

Dinghy racers do this ALL the time... many classes don't allow electronic instruments.. like tack tick race compasses that memorize headings and detect wind shifts for you.

 

[Joe]

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[Bill Roosa]

I think the point was was that close hauled course a true wind close haul or a apparent wind close haul. Which has always been my point as there is no such thing as a true wind close haul POS.

 

[Joe]

I think the point was was that close hauled course a true wind close haul or a apparent wind close haul. Which has always been my point as there is no such thing as a true wind close haul POS.

If you define close hauled as just pulling your sails in tight.... then you have completely missed the gist of this discussion.

Because it has been accepted in this discussion that the infamous Point of Sail chart depicts the boat's geometric relationship to the true wind direction. A point of sail can also be explained in terms of a boat's course in relation to true wind direction.

You can also say that sailing close hauled is an attempt to make the most forward progress sailing upwind.

Having your sails trimmed in tight is a result of sailing close hauled, but it doesn't define it.

 

[Daveinet]

Joe, I see 2 problems. First, if the chart disagrees with admiralty law, then the chart is wrong and can not be used as a standard for terminology. The other problem is you have to look at real word meaning. (not necessarily some unique sailing terminology) Sailing terminology evolved from the actual dictionary meanings of the words. The word close means that you are near something. The word haul, means to drag or pull something with force. That definition of the word haul does not make sense if it relates to the boat, particularly with the fact that the wind pushes on the sail. Close haul would have originated from pulling in on the main sheet. Hauling the sails in tight as opposed to out over the beam. So the sail is closely hauled into the center of the boat. Sailing terminology must have some relationship to language.
Again, I think we have just gotten lazy with our terminology because to sail with the sails close hauled, that always meant you pointing into the wind as steeply as possible. It is only the super fast modern boats who are able to sail close hauled on a beam reach. We've allowed the implication to define the terminology. Now that we have faster boats, the implication doesn't work anymore, so to use the term with an assumed implication doesn't work anymore. We need to go back to the original meaning. I would argue the chart is just wrong in its use of the term close hauled.

BTW: I'm not sure I understood you explanation of determining wind direction. Averaging port and starboard tacks seems to assume the wind is constant. That doesn't do much good sailing on small lakes. I had one lake, where I sailed completely around the whole lake in a full circle with the wind on the starboard side of my boat. (It was a good thing, as the lake was crowded with anchored boats and only had a narrow ski circle to navigate in) As far as I know, I can't think of anyway to determine true wind as it was in constant change around the whole lake.

 

[Bill Roosa]

Clearly we have a lexicon problem here. It was said by a very smart person once that "he who controls the lexicon controls the thinking."
close hauled is when the sheets and sails are all "pulled in as close to the center line of the boat as "possible" and the boat is still going forward. I have to agree with Daveinet that that definition has no bearing on what point of sail you might be on as an ice boat going 75 mph is close hauled in any direction it goes.
Do we know what PoS the racers call it when they are screaming downwind "close hauled"?

 

[Joe]

Of course, you can say I'm "close hauling my sails" ... but that's not the same as saying "my point of sail is close hauled" One describes the direction your sails are pointing, the other describes your boat's orientation to the true wind direction.

The mistake many make is assuming that because his sails are "close hauled" that he is sailing close hauled. Your ice boat reference is excellent, because it is the speed of the vessel that pushes the apparent wind so far forward, requiring the sails to be hauled in close. But, this is caused by boat speed... and boat speed is not a factor in the Point of Sail diagram. It simply depicts the boat's orientation to true wind direction. If the boat wants to point higher into the true wind, it must slow down to maintain a reasonable apparent wind angle.

I encourage you to read this thread from the beginning.

 

[Daveinet]

What is being hauled?

 

[Jackdaw]

Do we know what PoS the racers call it when they are screaming downwind "close hauled"?

High level racers on any boat describe it by the location of the true wind.

Just as a sanity check, I asked some of my friends and crew, 90% who have gone to one of the j/boat worlds this year. One came in 2nd in the j/70 worlds. Another was a Rolex yachtsmen of the year. Another has an Olympic gold medal. They all thought I was strange for asking. TRUE WIND.

 

[Kings Gambit]

What is being hauled?

After checking more on-line references I find that "hauling" in nautical lingo refers to a change of direction of a ship or of the wind. "Haul up" means to change the heading of a sailing vessel toward windward. Also, one can say: "The wind has hauled to the southeast." I also found a reference equating a hauling wind with a veering wind (i.e., a clockwise change in true wind direction).

Hauling the wind essentially means changing the heading of the ship toward windward. It stands to reason then that upon bringing her as near the wind as she could sail, she would be "close-hauled." The trim of the sails at that point would have to be sheeted hard or the boat could not sail a course toward windward. Thus, following the nautical vernacular of "hauling" would bring us to define close-hauled as sailing very close to the true wind direction with sails trimmed flat and sheeted hard; whereas, formal Admiralty law defines it as: "the arrangement or trim of a vessel's sails when she endeavors to make a progress in the nearest direction possible towards that point of the compass from which the wind blows. But a vessel may be considered as close-hauled, although she is not quite so near to the wind as she could possibly lie." In either definition the vessel's Point of Sail is essentially one of beating.

It's now easy to see how the nautical vernacular of close-hauled could fall into synonymous usage with the POS of "beating to weather." However, the Admiralty [Law] definition being more precise specifically refers to the trim of a vessel's sails required for the vessel to make a progress to weather or windward even if "she is not quite so near to the wind as she could possibly lie." So, it remains technically incorrect to represent "close-hauled" as a Point of Sail, by definition.

 

[shnool]

I find the derivative question of "close haul" to be a distraction towards the larger question.

Like Jack I am puzzled by the question... We were ALL taught the point of sail diagram (or we stumbled across it) and honestly it was always shown in reference to "true wind."

8 or 10 or even 20 years ago, I'd have been puzzled by WHY anyone would question such a thing... but now that I've had a "faster" boat than the cruisers I've spent much of my early years on, I GET why the question.

The problem lies mostly when you are sailing along, and your windex shows you at 135ish degrees, and your sails are obviously flattening, and working towards an accidental jibe. You're clocking along at just over 6 knots... and if you are lucky you have a wind speed indicator showing you have 8 knots of wind (really?). What you don't realize is your TRUE wind is actually at 154 degrees, and you are getting pushed along by 13 pushing 14 knot winds (as visually confirmed by white caps forming in the waves behind your surf!). Your own boat is surfing some, and you are rolling in the waves, and the angle of attack of your sails changes ever so slightly with the rollers you are riding, and BAM!!!! you jibe!!! what happened? I was on a NICE BROAD REACH!!!

No you weren't!!!! with the rollers you just adjusted towards DDW, and your angle of attack was wrong, and BAM!!! you just got smacked with a jibe (and likely gave your pit a concussion).

So I get the question... and I've had this discussion with my "greener than me" crew a couple times... We've been starting at a windex pointing dead abeam, and I've called it a broad reach, and he's questioned my statement more than once.

Point is, you trim to apparent wind... and always should, but be aware of what point of sail you are one based upon true wind.

One should not need an anemometer to determine wind speed (use the beaufort scale), and one should not need an advanced math degree to figure out what direction TRUE WIND is from (if offshore read the waves, estimate True wind based upon your speed, your direction, and the apparent speed of the wind beaufort scale, and wave direction)...

No question a gust is a lift (you see puffs/gusts moving over water as dark spots)...
No question a hole is a header (you see light spots moving over water as well, or usually not moving at all)...

When things get tricky is when and how to anticipate actual wind shifts... not velocity wind shifts... the velocity shifts can act like wind shift (see above), however, REAL wind shifts happen when you sail near shore, and are compounded when you deal on inland lakes. What I like to tell NEW sailors is that wind is like water (fluid)... if you look at your surrounding ground like impediments to water "flow." I use the RIVER analogy. The HEAD of the river being the direction of the wind, and the mouth being downwind. All shoreline, islands, and points (even boats on the water) are all "rocks" in the river, slowing progress for the water. How the water reacts will be either to roll OVER the impediments, or go around them. What constitutes changes of water direction are localized changes in wind direction.

Read that carefully above... because myself and another sailor in our club think similarly and have managed to ride 90 degree shifts along widening shorelines upwind, towards the windward mark... and the reason was localized shifts redirected wind as a lift for us... we've literally changed sailing direction from a beat to a close reach, or from a close reach to a beam reach by doing this trick, and have gone from 10 tacks to 2 getting upwind in races, taking on many positions or turning a race into a horizon job.

 

[Kings Gambit]

I find the derivative question of "close haul" to be a distraction towards the larger question.

In my opinion, you cannot discuss something that is "undefined" and make progress. We tried already in this thread (see above posts) and others. The POS diagrams indicate only "the wind" when we all now admit that there are two relevant "winds"; true and apparent. Sail trim (and Windex) are usually hooked to the apparent wind; Point of Sail defined relative to the true wind. I think it's important to have sorted this out here regardless of what we as beginning/learning, or even seasoned, sailors were taught or have assumed to be the case. It's not productive to discuss "Point of Sail" (the title of this thread) until we all know (agree) what each is and how defined. The definition of close-haul is the lynch pin to sorting it all out [otherwise the British Admiralty probably would not have needed to write down a definition of it and make it into Law]. I don't really see "a larger question"; perhaps someone wishes to point one out to be taken up.

 

[Jackdaw]

The problem lies mostly when you are sailing along, and your windex shows you at 135ish degrees, and your sails are obviously flattening, and working towards an accidental jibe. You're clocking along at just over 6 knots... and if you are lucky you have a wind speed indicator showing you have 8 knots of wind (really?). What you don't realize is your TRUE wind is actually at 154 degrees, and you are getting pushed along by 13 pushing 14 knot winds (as visually confirmed by white caps forming in the waves behind your surf!). Your own boat is surfing some, and you are rolling in the waves, and the angle of attack of your sails changes ever so slightly with the rollers you are riding, and BAM!!!! you jibe!!! what happened? I was on a NICE BROAD REACH!!!

No you weren't!!!! with the rollers you just adjusted towards DDW, and your angle of attack was wrong, and BAM!!! you just got smacked with a jibe (and likely gave your pit a concussion).

Here is a more concrete example. Our boat is quick, but no AC boat.

The picture looks like are are tight reaching, but in fact we are as dead downwind as we dare sail. The true wind is at 165 behind us at 5 knots true. We are moving at 4 and the windex looks like we are close hauled. Normally you think I could turn down to ease it, but if I turned down 15 degrees the boat would GIBE! You simply have to call wind by where it is true.

 

[CraigS]

Been offline for awhile and just read all of this thread. One term that was missing in the discussion was "polars". Those diagrams are based on true wind and assume proper sailtrim for all wind speeds in the diagram. I was always told that the terms (close, beam, etc) were relative to the true wind and matched the wind angles shown in the polars.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Here's one of each (Polar Apparent; Polar True) for the Soverel 33 (same boat; hull 89) found on the web. Apparently, they are produced in pairs (AWA & TWA) for a given yacht class. At 10 kt of apparent wind the Soverel should be making about 6.9 kt through the water at about 50 deg relative to the AWA. Starting at 6.9 kt of boat speed on the TW diagram, the Soverel would be sailing at about 90 deg relative to the TWA; with the true wind speed around 8 kt. However, the trim of the sails would be the same for both. [If I'm reading the thing correctly.] Clearly if you wish to plot a course a priori relative to the TWA and speed, the Polar Diagram will allow you to predict your speed; nevertheless, once underway, your sails will be correctly trimmed to the AW if you're ever going to make that speed!!

P.S. An on-line calculator puts the TWA @ 93 deg; speed 7.6 kt.

 

[sesmith]

Wow! Just checked into this thread for the first time in a while, and it's still going. Almost as good as an anchor thread.

My vote is that the diagram is relative to apparent wind, not true. This is not based on any real knowledge, on my part, though, so take it easy on me...

To say that point of sail is based on true wind is saying that the boat is static. It isn't, and by moving, the wind direction moves forward, and you adjust sails accordingly. Let's say you started on a beam reach, from a dead stop, with true wind 90 degrees to the direction of travel. As soon as you start moving, the apparent wind moves forward and you trim sails accordingly. You are now arguably, not on a beam reach anymore, but on more of a close reach. Unless, of course, you insist on using true wind, something the boat cares little about. My 2 cents, but I'll be the first to admit my ignorance might be showing.

 

[Kings Gambit]

Wow! Just checked into this thread for the first time in a while, and it's still going. Almost as good as an anchor thread.

My vote is that the diagram is relative to apparent wind, not true. This is not based on any real knowledge, on my part, though, so take it easy on me.

You need to start from the top again; you've missed a lot. No one is "voting" anymore--it's settled, I believe, in favor of TWA. We're discussing Polars now--how they can be reconciled with the POS diagrams, etc.

 

[sesmith]

You need to start from the top again; you've missed a lot. No one is "voting" anymore--it's settled, I believe, in favor of TWA. We're discussing Polars now--how they can be reconciled with the POS diagrams, etc.

Ooops, sorry. I missed a page of posts. Just found the diagram you posted on page 3.

 

[Kings Gambit]

However, the trim of the sails would be the same for both. [If I'm reading the thing correctly.]

Here's another curve ball. Each polar shows the boat's sails trimmed correctly when, for example, the wind is abeam (90% relative). Can't be so in reality. When the apparent wind is abeam, the true will likely not be, as we've discussed. One of the diagrams has the trim illustration wrong for best trim; and it's the TWA polar; just as in the POS diagrams!!!!! Maybe these things are where the POS diagrams get their own (incorrect) depictions.

 

[sesmith]

Just found a cool animated polar diagram. It's too bad it doesn't also animate the diagram for apparent wind, as well.

http://features.boats.com/boat-content/2013/09/sailing-101-understanding-polars-through-animation/