pipe tape or pipe dope?

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Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
Looking for thoughts on using pipe tape vs pipe dope (PTFE) for installing thru hull fittings (not the thru hull itself) and other assorted plumbing.

Also, any tricks on getting fittings to tighten up in the position you need them? Valve handles need to be in a certain position to be easily operated but the valve needs to be tight to the fitting too.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,913
- - LIttle Rock
None of the above

Never use any sealant/pipe dope...all hoses connected to below-waterline thru-hulls should be double clamped, with screws on opposite sides of the hose, or at least 90 degrees if accessability makes that impossible. You can use Teflon tape...in fact, it's advisable in some installations...but nothing else!
WARM hoses to get them onto fittings...use K-Y as a lubricant..put a little on the outside of the fitting and on the inside of the hose.
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,182
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Re: None of the above

BTW, Peggy, I used KY for coating wires to pull through the runs. Didn't want to buy a whole quart of wire lube. Worked great; yet another application for KY!
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Looking for thoughts on using pipe tape vs pipe dope (PTFE) for installing thru hull fittings (not the thru hull itself) and other assorted plumbing.

Also, any tricks on getting fittings to tighten up in the position you need them? Valve handles need to be in a certain position to be easily operated but the valve needs to be tight to the fitting too.

I used to be a rep for a tape/dope & chemical company and learned from the pro pipe fitters who work on high pressure steam, pharmaceutical and food industry piping, especially SS, that using both tape and dope is a wise choice. Tape first then apply dope. I always used both and there will always be one more turn. With tape and dope you'll likely never have a leak at the low pressures were working with.

My preferred dopes are Hercules Real Tuff or Megaloc. Real-Tuff can be bought at Home Depot and would be the one I'd suggest. I use Megaloc mostly on aluminum to aluminum NPT-NPT fittings & for Diesel fuel & #2 oil systems.

I tape:


Then dope:


BTW Real-Tuff is rated to 12000 PSI pressure, good stuff...

I suspect Peggy thought your question was about hose connections. I am assuming you meant NPT to NPT pipe threads.
 
Dec 2, 1997
8,913
- - LIttle Rock
Sorry, Maine...I gotta disagree....

Sorry Maine...I gotta disagree.

I don't think any pipe dope/sealant is appropriate for use in any plumbing system or especially in any sanitation system plumbing because it creates the illusion that it's a permanent fix...and NOTHING on a boat is a permanent fix!

The ONLY thing that ever be used in sanitation plumbing is Teflon tape or paste.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Sorry Maine...I gotta disagree.

I don't think any pipe dope/sealant is appropriate for use in any plumbing system or especially in any sanitation system plumbing because it creates the illusion that it's a permanent fix...and NOTHING on a boat is a permanent fix!

The ONLY thing that ever be used in sanitation plumbing is Teflon tape or paste.
Peggy,

The ONLY thing permanent about Real-Tuff or Megaloc is the permanence of leak free fittings!:D

Try telling that to the millions and millions of owners of plumbing, sanitation and heating systems throughout the world whose threads are sealed with pipe dope/tape, pipe dope alone (the most common practice) or tape. Plumbers, heating specialist and pipe fitters live and die by pipe dopes for mating NPT-NPT fittings every day. One call back due to a leaking fitting can cost you half a days work. Iorked in that industry as a manufacturers rep for many years and sold pipe dopes and teflon tapes for one of the biggest manufacturers in that market so I do understand how these things work or don't. There are some pipe dopes not worth the cans they ship in but you'd not hear me recommending them here.

The OP was asking about seacocks. Seacocks are usually bronze or Marelon and use sealing threads. Pipe dope, no matter who makes it, is the world standard for sealing threads.

Sadly you are clearly confusing a PLUMBING pipe dope like Real-Tuff with 5200 or something else.:confused: Real-Tuff is a THREAD SEALING dope that does not harden or fully cure. It is meant to both seal, by filling in any thread imperfections, and lubricate the threads so the NPT to NPT can thread together without galling or prematurely binding, and create a liquid and gas tight seal. The product I recommended, Real-Tuff is a PTFE based dope made of the SAME stuff as teflon tape, PTFE. Adding this dope to tape takes the level of sealing to nearly 100%, 100% of the time repeatably even in significantly higher working pressures than we have to deal with on boats. This product, unlike some dopes, is 100% safe for plastic pipe fittings too as it contain no harsh solvents.

I would NEVER recommend a product like a marine "sealant" such as 4200 or 5200 for thread sealing. Real-Tuff is NOT permanent at all. It in fact actually ALLOWS the products to come apart much easier in the future.

If you don't understand or know of the product you might look into it first before getting on me about being wrong..:doh:Personally I would never trust just tape or just dope. I have seen far to many examples of plumbers & pipe fitters & boat yards and DIY's who only used one or the other, and also the results of the guys who took the time to use both.

The ONLY thing that ever be used in sanitation plumbing is Teflon tape or paste.
Real-Tuff COMPLIMENTS teflon tape and IS teflon paste!!!!:)

You might buy a can of Real-Tuff and I'll bet you'll be on here recommending it by next week..;)

Real-Tuff Data Sheet:

Multi-purpose heavy duty, white, PTFE paste thread sealant for use on Aluminum, Black Iron, Brass, Copper, Glass, Monel, Natural Rubber, Plastic (P.E.,Reinforced), PVC, ABS, CPVC, Stainless Steel, Synthetic Rubber (Butyl, Neoprene). Contains a unique system of fine grain PTFE particles specifically designed to fill cracks and tiny thread imperfections. Leak free joints can be tested and put into service at once. Real-Tuff holds tight against expansion, contraction and vibration, is non-separating, will not run or drip from joints, contains no lead. Non-hardening lubricating formula permits low torque make-up and easy disassembly without galling or stripping threads. Real-Tuff withstands temperatures from -200°F to +550°F, and provides leak-proof hydraulic resistance to 12,000 psi. Withstands gas pressure up to 2,600 psi. Real-Tuff is non-flammable and contains no heavy metals or volatile solvents and is applied easily with a natural bristle brush, even at temperatures as low as -25°F.
 

Rick D

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Jun 14, 2008
7,182
Hunter Legend 40.5 Shoreline Marina Long Beach CA
Two Different Things?

I think the author is talking about threaded connections to the through hull (or valve to threaded stem). However, it is ambiguous since he also talks about other connections. Well, it seems Main Sail is talking threaded connections (alloy) and Peggy barbed to hose (except maybe plastic to plastic threaded).

I know I should have never waded into this swamp, but it seemed like you needed help...... :bang:
 
Mar 6, 2008
1,293
Catalina 1999 C36 MKII #1787 Coyote Point Marina, CA.
Main sail - I use the paste myself. I read the specs - but I did not read anything about - if it is OK to use for drinking water line. Is it?
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
The ONLY way to positively secure NPT FITTINGS in various 'rotated' attitudes is by a PIPE UNION a device that can allow 360° rotation of the fitting and then tightening the PIPE UNION to secure the joints in place. Unions for marine applications are virtually non-existent and so most will use a 'dope' to come close to a correct NPT fitting to NPT fitting closure or 'angular offset'.
BUT if there is no proper 'engagement' of metal thread to metal thread .... and no matter how much 'dope' is between the threads, there will not be a POSITIVE seal.

If you 'load' the joint/threads with dope and dont tighten sufficiently to approach metal to metal contact ... you dont have a 'secure' joint. Dope or Tape is to fill-in 'irregularities' and small manufacturing tolerance defects, not to allow a fitting to be (as an example) '90 degrees rotated' from metal to metal 'tight'.

Example of NORMAL 'engagement' of NPT thread systems: http://www.dixonvalve.com/dpl/dpl_page/2008/525.pdf -- see bottom of charting.
NPT thread profiles: http://www.engineersedge.com/hardware/taper-pipe-threads.htm
 

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RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Main sail - I use the paste myself. I read the specs - but I did not read anything about - if it is OK to use for drinking water line. Is it?
Most dopes 'particulate' ... constantly release particles (and the EPA and FDA have had quite severe warnings about 'pipe dope' in (high purity) water, etc. systems and the ingestion of PTFE, PFO, etc.).
For sanitary or food grade, etc. connections most use 'tape'.
 
Oct 2, 2006
1,517
Jboat J24 commack
I use USA made Teflon Tape with UL approval for the intended job as there is a lot of crap substandard tape out there
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
Sorry for the apparent confusion. I was referring to thread to thread connections. I only use 2 clamps for below the waterline hose to hosebarb connections.

Thanks again MS.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Most dopes 'particulate' ... constantly release particles (and the EPA and FDA have had quite severe warnings about 'pipe dope' in (high purity) water, etc. systems and the ingestion of PTFE, PFO, etc.).
For sanitary or food grade, etc. connections most use 'tape'.
Real-Tuff is actually NSF rated for potable water but there are only a couple of connections on a boat where it may even be necessary such as NPT fittings going into the tank. It was often used in pharmaceutical plants and in food processing plants and I rarely came across a spec which would have excluded Real-Tuff, but there were some. Plastic fittings however rarely need both tape & dope to seal...

ANSI/NSF61
FED SPEC TT-S-1732
For Potable Water.
 
Nov 26, 2008
1,970
Endeavour 42 Cruisin
Megalock sounds more versatile since it will work with fuel vs realtuff that is not OK for fuel?
 
Jun 6, 2006
6,990
currently boatless wishing Harrington Harbor North, MD
You should avoid thread to thread connections. A thruhull needs a valve and the proper way to do that is to install a seacock. This also eleminiates the positioning of the valve operating handle problem. The use of a seacock can include a barbed nipple via a threaded connection but you can put that on perminatly before instalation and get is good and tight.
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Megalock sounds more versatile since it will work with fuel vs realtuff that is not OK for fuel?
Real-Tuff is also #2/Diesel rated and is the better & more versatile product if you only want one. There are other PTE pastes out there, this manufacturers makes many of the competitors products, but this one I know, trust and have used since the late 80's..

Real-Tuff:
Carbon Dioxide
Carbon Tetrachloride
Castor Oils
Caustic Alkalies
(concentrated)
Caustic Alkalies (dilute)
Coal Gas
Coal Tar Naptha
Cutting Oils
Diesel Fuel Oil
Dry Cleaning Fluids
Ethylene Glycol
Fatty Acid (liquid)
Freons (all)
Gasohol
Gasoline
Glycerine
Heating Oils
Helium Gaseous
Hydraulic Oils
Hydrogen
Inert Gases
Jet Fuel
Kerosene
Ketones
Liquefied Pet. Gases
Lubricating Oils
Manufactured Gases
Mineral Oils
Natural Gas
Nitrogen Gaseous
Petroleum Solvents
Propane
Propylene Glycol
Soap Liquid
Sugar Liquid
Steam
Toluene
Tri-Chloro-Ethylene
Vegetable Oils
Water (cold & hot)
Water Gas
Xylene
 
Jan 22, 2008
880
Fed up w/ personal attacks I'm done with SBO
My vintage Catalina 30 has thru-hulls with ball valves threaded onto them (I should be thankful I don't have pipe stems or gate valves). This arrangement has lasted for over thirty years and at last haulout I replaced two thru-hulls and two additional valves. The threaded joints are now sealed with 4200 without problems of any sort.

I'm not discounting the superiority of proper seacocks bolted to the hull. My previous boat, a Westsail, was built for blue water cruising and was fitted with seacocks throughout.
 

Tim R.

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May 27, 2004
3,626
Caliber 40 Long Range Cruiser Portland, Maine
Neil, if you are saying you used 4200 to seal the threads between the thru-hull and the ball valve you will have an extremely difficult time removing those valves without spinning the thru-hull fitting. You or the next owner will be cursing you when that day comes.
 

jfmid

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Jan 31, 2010
152
Oday 27 LE Manahawkin, NJ
My 2 cents on this
Totally agree with Maine sail about Tape and Dope.
Little trick however.
Make sure that the tape doesn't cover the outermost thread. It needs to be 1-2 threads from the end. Reason??? The "seal" of the threaded union is supposed to be from the threads mating and the force of the seating "deforming" the metal to cause a leak proof "cold weld". Dope and tape are teflon "lubricants" that allow the parts to better move and also can fill tiny voids. You aren't asking the dope and tape to "seal" the joint otherwise why do we even have threads???? They are just a little helper.
If too much tape is used when the threads are tightened down the tape will be sliced and the little piece of tape that is sliced free inside the union is now free to travel down the pipe and jam somewhere. Not a big problem if it's leading aft to a bigger pipe but a huge problem if it clogs a gas jet in a burner/boiler. That's why Home Cheapo type places wont recommend tape. They know that too many will overwrap the threads and cause bigger problems. If you're gonna use tape (and you should) in combo with dope (cause that's how the pros get a great result each time) do it properly and keep first 1-2 threads clear.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
You should avoid thread to thread connections. A thruhull needs a valve and the proper way to do that is to install a seacock. This also eleminiates the positioning of the valve operating handle problem. The use of a seacock can include a barbed nipple via a threaded connection but you can put that on perminatly before instalation and get is good and tight.
I 'think' he may be referring to: Thruhull - seacock - elbow nipple - check valve - elbow - NPT to Hose barb .... a real challenge to get all the 'alignment' in order when using NPT connections without 'pipe unions'.
 
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