pinning a furler forestay for setup- tricks for doing this?

[walt]

I posted on the Macgregor forum questions about a furler head sail size here http://forums.macgregor.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=1205225#post1205225

But what I’m wondering from trailer sailors in general is if you have a boat in the 22 to 26 foot range (my boat is a 1990 26S) and have a furler, how to you pin the forestay during mast setup and get good tension.

I know you can do this with a Johnson lever but I know a lot of people do this just fine without the lever.

When I had a furler in the past, I had a little pulley setup that I would hook around the fuler base and use this to pull things in place so I could pin the forestay. This "sort of" worked..

 

[CloudDiver]

Re: pinning a furler forestay for setup- tricks for doing th

Don't quote me on this because I haven't installed the furler on my boat yet, and it was hank on when I took it down; but having enough slack in the back stay and shrouds during stepping should allow enough slack in the forestay to pin it. If you can't do that with all shrouds/stays slack on the turnbuckles then your forestay/furler set up may be too short. Just an inch can make all the difference in the world.

 

[walt]

What I have been doing in the past.. the mast on the old mac gets first set up resting in an aft mast crutch and is raised forward and then the forestay pinned.

My backstay is kept loose and I raise the mast with a gin pole and baby stays. I use the mast raising system which has pullley leverage to get the mast tight upright and then pin the hank on forestay. I then tension the back stay, never mess with the side stay tension. Its a fast single person mast raising setup but probably doesnt get the forestay tension as tight as the Johnson lever would and I probably give up a little pointing speed.

I did a search and the Mac forum has a lot of posts on this with most people using the Johnson lever for the easy setup and proper tension.

I may also go that route when I switch to the roller furler head sail but the only problem the Johnson lever will fix is the tension for pinning. Im planning on a 110 jib so I think I should be fine for seeing under the sail without needing to raise it for visibility.

It may not matter much but I would prefer not to raise the sail center of effort that comes along with the Johnson lever. The furler base already does this compared to the hank on that Im used to.

 

[LloydB]

Re: pinning a furler forestay for setup- tricks for doing th

If your shrouds are swept back like mine then they are probably preventing forward slack on the mast even when the is backstay disconnected. One solution would be to put the Johnson levers on the shrouds of one side to get slack enough for the furler and you would still not need to re-tension each time you re-step the mast. You would have to re-size one set of stays however.

 

[justsomeguy]

If your shrouds are swept back like mine then they are probably preventing forward slack on the mast even when the is backstay disconnected. One solution would be to put the Johnson levers on the shrouds of one side to get slack enough for the furler and you would still not need to re-tension each time you re-step the mast. You would have to re-size one set of stays however.

And it just keeps gettin' more convoluted, huh?

 

[caguy]

The same way you do it when you don't have a furler to contend with. My old furler slid up and down the forestay so I could slide it up as far as I could and clamp it in place with vise grips place on the cable just below the furled to keep it out of the way. Loosen up your turnbuckle as far as it will go. Use your jib halyards attached to your forward cleat or anchor roller and tighten with a winch if you can. You can apply additional force using your knee or shoulder. If you have someone (who can listen to a curse word or two without taking it personally) have them support the furler and take some of the sag out of it while you are struggling. You will look idle a two person Iwo Jima.
Once the pin is in re-tighten your forestay turn buckle.
I don't think I needed to mention to release your back stay before doing any thing else.
Whew or get a JOHNSON lever!
Now I remember why I pay $150 /month for Mast-up storage.

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Re: pinning a furler forestay for setup- tricks for doing th

The difference between the MacGregor and the Hunter waterballast, the MacGregor had a backstay while the Hunter did not as a result of the B &R rig which worked quite well.

Sometimes folks overtighten the shrouds and if you will go back to recent archives of the Hunter waterballast tuning, I pretty much pointed out as a dealer how to tension a rig which should apply to the Macgregor as well except the backstay will have to be loosened and you could simply add a quick release lever which the backstay will stay attached but no tension on it.

If properly tuned without over doing it, you should be able to raise the gin or mast raise pole 10 degrees up like I tell everyone on the Hunters and pull down just enough to attach the forestay and release the line if set up like the Hunter mainsheet. One word of caution, release the line in the cam cleat with your shoe and not your hand as too much tension could injure a finger.

I did sell MacGregors as well.

 

[CaptDon01]

Our Capri-18 had swept back uppers, and lowers. Once the rig was tuned, I never touched the side stays or the back stay. I only disconnected the forestay. As the photo shows, I had a Johnson Quick Release Lever on the back stay. I left it open, raised the mast, and connected the forestay. Then I simply pulled the lever on the Johnson Quick Release and the rigging pulled tight. Very simple and quick.

Don

 

[walt]

Don, nice solution but I think would work best with a mast head riig. I should have also mentioned that my old boat is a fractional rig.

Regarding rig tension, (and please correct me if Im wrong as I very well could be) but it seems there is a minumum tension required just to not damage a rig from sloppy pumping and banging.

Then there is a much tigher tension that you need for maxium upwind pointing (I can really notice this on my C15 where I can adjust the tension).

There is a fairly large range in between where you wont damage anything, just probably give up a little in pointing performance.

So for the fractional rig, it looks like there is the gin pole method (recomended by Crazy Dave and what I believe both Justsomeguy and I both do already) where you use the gin pole to "pre tension" the mast and this makes pinning the forestay easier. This probably doesnt result in the tension that gives the maxium pointing but its considerably higher than the mininum needed just to not damage anything.

There is the turnbuckle method on the forestay mentioned which is a little more work but maybe not so bad if you dont set up often. I wonder if the CDI FF2 allows the turnbuckle access like Caguy mentioned.

And there is the Johnson lever method on the forestay which probably results in both good tension and is fast but on a furler it ends up raising the drum a fair amount. When I see this done it looks like it would not endure much rotation stress from rolling the sail up in high winds but the people who have them say they are reliable. I mostly just dont like the way this looks.. but I may end up going this route. Or.. if the FF2 has access to the turnbuckle during setup, I may also go that route. I already have the gin pole which is a wonderful thing and will of course keep that.

 

[justsomeguy]

snip- I wonder if the CDI FF2 allows the turnbuckle access like Caguy mentioned.

-snip

Yes, it does, provided the sail's tack is high enough.

 

[caguy]

Re: pinning a furler forestay for setup- tricks for doing th

The Johnson lever is the same length as the turnbuckle and replaces the turnbuckle. I also replace the vernier attachments on the side shrouds with turnbuckles making tuning much easier.

 

[walt]

The Johnson lever is the same length as the turnbuckle and replaces the turnbuckle

I have attached a picture of the CDI furler (from the manual) - it looks like the turnbuckle is "inside" the furler drum.

Are you saying the Johnson lever also goes inside the drum as show in the diagram.. I always see them mounted below the drum - and the CDI manual also says to not mount a turnbuckle below the drum but I guess this works for the Johnson lever as it doesnt rotate

From the manual

The system can NOT be mounted above the
turnbuckle. If you wish to raise the system
for better clearance, shorten the stay and use link plates below the turnbuckle.​

 

[Crazy Dave Condon]

Re: pinning a furler forestay for setup- tricks for doing th

Walt

May be worth a phone call from me. I was involved with the Hunter water ballast boats and the mast raising. I use to be a Mac dealer as well many years ago. Send me an email thru the forum

 

[caguy]

Re: pinning a furler forestay for setup- tricks for doing th

Here is a picture of the setup from Sumner's Mac26 and the link from where the picture was borrowed. http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sumner/macgregor2/rigging-24.html

In this article he did an upgrade to the size of the forestay which I like. The original 1/8th inch wire always seemed a little light and made me nervous.

 

[walt]

Crazy Dave, thanks for that offer.. I’m just exploring ideas now.

Caguy, yes I have seen that picture many times.. That distance between the furler and the deck tang is what I’m trying to avoid.. but may end up going that route. I think Sumner likes it like that as he has a larger Genoa (I think 135). In general, the larger the % of the Genoa, the more they block your forward view. I am going with a 110% so should not have the visibility issue and want to keep the sail center of effort as low as possible.

An idea that I am considering is a "pinning stick" that you only use when pinning the forestay. After the forestay is set, you remove the stick. This would raise the furler drum about 2 inches. One of the things I’m hoping to avoid is having to move the stay attachment point at the top of the mast and the 2 inches could make this necessary... Anyhow the idea is below

 

[caguy]

Crazy Dave, thanks for that offer.. I’m just exploring ideas now.

Caguy, yes I have seen that picture many times.. That distance between the furler and the deck tang is what I’m trying to avoid.. but may end up going that route. I think Sumner likes it like that as he has a larger Genoa (I think 135). In general, the larger the % of the Genoa, the more they block your forward view. I am going with a 110% so should not have the visibility issue and want to keep the sail center of effort as low as possible.

An idea that I am considering is a "pinning stick" that you only use when pinning the forestay. After the forestay is set, you remove the stick. This would raise the furler drum about 2 inches. One of the things I’m hoping to avoid is having to move the stay attachment point at the top of the mast and the 2 inches could make this necessary... Anyhow the idea is below

That looks like a pretty good idea first I've seen of it. That's why I love this site. On the Mac25 I had a 150 Genoa and visibility was a problem until I put the furled on and raised the foot about 12". Novelman, who no longer frequents here,had a 135 on his Mac 22 and had a window sewn into his. The channel at MDR can get very crowded with paddlers, UCLA sailing school and the other weekend warriors. Fortunately motor boaters are not allowed in the center part of the channel.
Good luck with your project. Look forward to seeing your final solution.

 

[walt]

The visibility issue is important to me.. I think in general if you do something that risks your own safety.. for the most part, go ahead. But doing something that puts someone else at risk.. not good and not being able to see where you are going just seems like a real bad idea to me - just my opinion only.

The attached picture (this is the boat I have - an old Mac 26S) sort of shows how the different size jib sails affect the visibility

 

[Meriachee]

Crazy Dave, thanks for that offer.. I’m just exploring ideas now. Caguy, yes I have seen that picture many times.. That distance between the furler and the deck tang is what I’m trying to avoid.. but may end up going that route. I think Sumner likes it like that as he has a larger Genoa (I think 135). In general, the larger the % of the Genoa, the more they block your forward view. I am going with a 110% so should not have the visibility issue and want to keep the sail center of effort as low as possible. An idea that I am considering is a "pinning stick" that you only use when pinning the forestay. After the forestay is set, you remove the stick. This would raise the furler drum about 2 inches. One of the things I’m hoping to avoid is having to move the stay attachment point at the top of the mast and the 2 inches could make this necessary... Anyhow the idea is below

Walt,
The ff drum will lift enough to get to the turnbuckle. After a few years of doing that, I discovered that simply unclipping the backstay was more than enough to get the ff attached. Then just reclip the backstay.
The spreaders on the 26c are swept enough to prevent the feeling of impending doom that the mast will impale somebody.
(Although there's usually some opinion at the ramp waiting to be delivered)

 

[walt]

Well... here are some pictures of my kludge experiment. This is rev 2.. rev 1 is not worth showing.

The lever is just a bar of 3/4 by 1/4 aluminum and it slides into the adapter and gets clipped to the bow roller aft of the forestay tang on the deck. A little slot on the bar registers on the bottom bolt in the adapter. It has just under 5 inches of travel and everything weighs about 1/2 pound. I think it’s plenty strong.

It will raise the furler/jib 2.5 inches which I think will be OK..

Edit... I just did a test where I put a lot of force on the aluminum bar and it bent a little. The force was considerably higher than what I could have possibly put on things pinning by hand and I think considerably higher than the down force of what a johnson lever is able to achieve.. but maybe its still a little bit of a weak spot. The bar bent (just slightly) where I had put the notch.

 

[Sumner]

Re: pinning a furler forestay for setup- tricks for doing th

One thing to keep in mind if you are using a CDI Furler and maybe others is they recommend a toggle at the top and bottom of the system.

They don't cost much but do add another couple inches to the length of things top and bottom. Can't see where that would move the CP much with the sail only 2 inches higher.

Since I'm not racing I've really enjoyed being able to see under the sail with it being higher due to the Johnson lever. I helps as far as knowing where another boat might be and just to see the scenery.

I've had some bad conditions on this trip pounding into waves where the bow has been completely under water and have been glad that I upped the size of the forestay and all the hardware at the same time (Johnson Lever, pins, etc.). Also I have a lot of tension on the rigging so the mast has been rock solid and not pumping at all. Not saying someone should do the same just some feedback.

Also it can make a difference how you put some of the pins in I found. Once rigged and after being used some see if the pin has tensioned itself against the head or the ring-ding end or maybe neither. I had one pin where the tension on it was on the ring-ding end and saw a nick in it at Georgetown. I used the mast raising system (I still use the Jib Halyard even though it isn't use with the furler) and released the tension on the forestay and put in a new longer pin and a new ring-ding and turned the pin 180 deg. so now the tension is on the pin's head end and not pulling on the ring-ding. More about it here...

http://1fatgmc.com/boat/mac-1/2015 Bahamas/2-Bahamas-2/Bahamas-Page-13.html

Sumner

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