Picking a stove

[zeehag]

just dont put them under the stove... i recommend getting a hose made for yours so it is flexible, as the problems i have found with the coleman, et alii stoves is a little brass fitting inside the stove underneath the right burner. right next to the boomgas. the problem is solved by having a 3 ft hose made for the small can and stash the can in a cabinet... works great-- have had this stove for 4 yrs and po had it since 2004, after the 5th fire caused by alcohol stoves in the galley of this boat in less than 3 yrs. . after his alcohol stove burned part of the well in which it sat. operative word--SAT. the coleman sits in there now, hose rises to the cabinet behind sink for boomgas. perfect. am installing a sheet metal barrier between wood and stove..(good safety measure practiced in restaurants but not in boats for some reason..).
almost. will be perfect when i install my force 10 stove from my other boat into this one.

 

[Johnb]

If a gallon of alcohol costs $17 and provides 76,000 BTU (~ 23,000 BTU per $) and a gallon of propane costs $4 and provides 91,600 BTU (~4,470 BTU per $) then the cost of running an alcohol stove is about 5 times higher than propane.

If the rule of thumb is one pound of propane per person per week then the budget for two people aboard for a year would be about 104 pounds of propane which at 4.11 pounds per gallon would be approx 25 gallons or $100 (at $4 per gallon).

If alcohol is 5 times more expensive that would mean an annual budget of $500. (all in round numbers)

For non cruisers the difference would not be too sigificant, maybe the difference between $20 and $100 per annum, but for cruisers it may matter.

I hope I did the math right

 

[Old Skool Neil]

If a gallon of alcohol costs $17 and provides 76,000 BTU (~ 23,000 BTU per $) and a gallon of propane costs $4 and provides 91,600 BTU (~4,470 BTU per $) then the cost of running an alcohol stove is about 5 times higher than propane.

I hope I did the math right

John,
Better check your arithmetic. Seems we reach nearly the same conclusion but I couldn't follow your numbers, think something's reversed.

The West Advisor shows alcohol delivering 64,600 BTU/gal and propane 91,000 BTU/gal.

Using your pricing, that gives alcohol @3800 BTU/$ and propane @22750 BTU/$.
Therefore alcohol is a hair under 6X the cost of propane for the same thermal output.

But is alcohol safer than propane, heavier than air fumes, relative pressures and all that? How do you factor that in? Does cost trump safety?

I dunno, I was fortunate the P.O. preferred CNG.

Regarding the safety comment, I believe with the proper attention and precaution, any fuel can be used safely.

 

[zeehag]

alcohol burns down your boat. no one knows how to extinguish the unseen flames in a timely manner by throwing water onto it to remove the fuel, yet it wont cook food adequately. nothing like rubber abalone as heat stays tooo low to properly fry items.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

alcohol burns down your boat.

Agree, Zee, but propane blows up your boat. There's very little difference between it and gasoline.

I have friends with an Origo 2 burner with oven and I'll tell ya, they've turned out tremendous meals. Oven baked potatoes, baked chicken, stovetop rice, scalloped potatoes, steamed veggies. It's never let us down, never flared, excellent temperature control. I admit though, unless it's raining the meat goes on the Magma.

 

[Smithy]

I've been here less than a week, Zee, and you crack me up.

 

[zeehag]

if propane blows up your boat, then why hasnt mine ever blown up and why are there so very FEW instances of blown up boats by propane?? lol--research and reply. i surveyed a blown to hell boat from propane-- deck came off hull. guy was stooooopit in his changeover of tanks. lol. oops boom. be safe--even water can kill ye-- gonna stay out of water?? get real, folks.
i am glad i crack ye up--i am being real.
i have lived aboard since 1990 and i have cruised ... i also delivered boats of my friends and for others here in left coast. i have been sailing since 1956. safest boat cooking fuel is propane. have lived aboard since 199 and I Have only known of 2 booms during this length of time. so .. how many alcohol fires have burned galleys to th3 point of restoration needed?? i can tell ye-- this particular boat had 5 of them before someone got it right and installed propane.
if you are cooking with alcohol, best keep a bucket of water next to the stove.
i donot camp out in my boat--is my residence. i donot EVER cook with alcohol, nor will i begin now. propane is good. alcohol suxx. cannot convince me otherwise--btdt too many times.
alcohol is for propelling indy cars. is also for cooking on a 25 coronado at avalon harbor. not for living and cruising on my boats. force 10s a good stove. origo looks like what jumped ship from my ericson and from my formosa.

 

[Rick D]

OK, so an Origo looks a little funky. Granted. But, we used one for over nine years, and it cooked beautifully. We are not just occasional weekenders either. We really liked it and the oven worked well too, although you had to do some initial steps to fire it off. It also needed an oven thermometer, a ten dollar addition. We have been using CNG for eleven years and it's great, although I'd have to do LPG for any serious time in Mexico. BTW, we still have a back up Origo by way of an Origo Heat Pal which can double as a stove top. 5000 BTU. Nice heat if you remember to keep a port open. I had pressurized alcohol stoves for years. They worked fine once you figured 'em out by trying to burn out the galley a few times. My eyebrows always grew back.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

The reason your boat hasn't blown up is you're aware of the dangers and use it with the proper care, same as the vast majority of users. Why doesn't every boat with an alcohol cooker burn to the waterline? Same reason.

For the record, alcohol is probably my least favorite cooking fuel followed very closely by diesel for different reasons.

 

[Steve Dion]

Regardless of the heat output of the individual fuels, there is also considerations with the burner output from the different stoves.

Origo 6800 btu
Butane 10,000 btu
Propane (Force 10) 8,200 btu (large burner) 3,400 btu (small burner)

 

[zeehag]

i will never place a burning down the house alcohol stove inmy boat. is why they jumped ship. one from each boat-- formosa was burned 5 times by alcohol fuel. my exoeriencce withy propane isthat it is the safest cooking fuel onh board any boat with the beat refilling possible in other countries, propane is used everywhere for cooking. and ye dont have to POUR any substances into anything-- is all good and self contained. using an alcohol stove is camping out and not in pleasant manner. i reside aboard and have since 1990 with no problems nor have nhy ofmy neighbors nor anyone in sd bay have any problems except 2 in the time since 1990. aalcohol-- sincw 1990?? gimme a break-- boats burning up allover because of the lack of safety f the fluid. i would much rather pour gasoline than alcohol--is more efficient. thre isno reason to have to cook with a liquid needing pouring into a burner then messed with to start. i turnon ky solenoid, turn on my burner and have coffee realllly quick. i donot have to worry about newbies burning down my home, nor do i have to worry about someone kicking over the fuel or spilling while pouring into the stove. my good fortune with propane isnot because of my skill and good care--is because is now much safer than the pour and burn alternatives. and easier to find world wide than cng. if propane was so bad,there would be many many more splosions than there are.i have resided in sin diego since 1995-- only 2 splosions from boomgas. cannot say that with alcohol stoves.
if alcohol is so great--install an origo alcohol stove in your home for the wife to cook on all the time.see what she has to say about it . if you think is safer than propane, then HAS to be safer than natural gas. goood luck.

 

[Old Skool Neil]

Zee,

I enjoy your posts, I really do but I'm not understanding the motivation of your rant. Did you not read my post? I said, and I'll say it again, I'M NOT A FAN OF ALCOHOL AS A COOKING FUEL!!! How can I make it any clearer?

Yes, I have friends who have done very well with THEIR Origo, but it's not for me. I don't have alcohol, don't want alcohol, not gonna have alcohol. So what have I done to set you off?? Seems I really hit a nerve.

Is it that I believe proper caution and diligence can make for a safe boat, cookers included? Gee, that's a radical thought. If you're not in agreement, that's fine, everybody's entitled to their opinion.

Me too.

 

[zeehag]

isnt your answers i was responding to --only part-- all cooking fuels need diligence and care-- but the folks who continuously demand that othre accept their alcohol stoves as safe when more boats are burned from alcohol stove fires than from propane booms..is hilarious. i am happy the previous owners didnt succeed in torching this boat in its entirety -- was burned 5 times --all from alcohol stoves. wow . what a consideration. no one knew how to extinguish an alcohol fire. wow. granted the flame from an alcohol fire is essentially invisible in daylight-- but, the fact the boat was flaming 5 different times from alcohol stove is something to consider when thinking of stoves. alcohol is not safe fuel. no fuel is safe. but for the advocates to say that it is safer than propane when the opposite has been proven, is beyond my ability to comprehend. old skool--you are one who makes sense-- many do not.

 

[jibes138]

Safest Fuel

Electricity. Yes you might say many boats and houses too have burned because of bad wiring but with no flame at all seems like the safest way to cook. I've only recently seen electric stoves getting advertised for boats, if you are tied to a dock all the time it probably makes sense and a small backup propane or butane stove for a day or two on the hook. Semms like a huge generator would be needed for multiple burners and an oven otherwise. Also 30 amps on a boat might not handle a stove, oven, water pump, water heater. Might have to go to 50 amps.
Of course you could always connect the stove to your solar array and eat about 20 years later

 

[Ross]

Re: Safest Fuel

I asked the question eariler and no one answered about the control of an alcohol burnrer flame. The advantage that gas has over all other cooking fuels is instant response. With an electric or solid fuel stove you must move a pot about to boil over off the heat. But with a gas stove you just turn the flame down. try boiling milk on your stove and see if you can control the flame to prevent boiling over. Warning a watched pot will boil and a watched pot on milk can very quickly boil over.

 

[stephen Penny]

Ross,

I know this will not be a popular respose but here it goes. I have an Origo 3000 NON-pressurized alcohol 2 burner with an oven stove and it is really very controllable, fast and extremely safe to cook with. We routinely cook up homemade soup, sauteed mushrooms for the grilled steaks, English breakfast with sausage, potatoes, peppers, tomatoes, onions and mushrooms, etc. From a safety persepective the safest stove fuel is non-pressurized and lighter than air, i.e., alcohol. From a convience perspective propane would be first as long as you have a low explosive limit (LEL) detector, automatic emergency shut-off valve in the event LEL detection or the fuel is discharging through the burner unburned and you take steps to postively isolate the propane tank from your stove when you leave the boat.

 

[Ross]

The size of the pot and the size of the burner determine how quickly something will fry, cook, or boil on a stove. Some electric stoves have been excruciatingly slow heating up and cooling down some of the modern ones are very fast. My gas stoves have far more heat capacity than is needed for most cooking but that is why they put the knobs on there.
My twelve quart pressure cooker demands the full output of my gas stove to come up to canning pressure and about half that to maintain the pressure for an hour and a half.

 

[Steve Dion]

Ross:

There is not a problem controlling the size of the flame output on the Origo stoves. It works much like it would with a butane, propane or CNG flame.

Turn the knob and the amount of flame/heat is controlled.

I personally do not know of any problems that anyone has had with a non-pressurized stove when cooking. The only issue comes when one tries to refill a canister when the canister is still hot. Alcohol vaporizes at very low temperatures, so the user must be careful and fill the canisters only when they are cool.

Most everything one has heard about pressurized alcohol stoves do not apply to the Origo (and possibly the Cookmate knockoffs).

When well filled out canisters on our Origo I would always do it over the sink. This way if any of it spilled (and it did) the fisheys would get a little high <g>, but no fuel in the galley.

 

[Ross]

Thank you Steve. If you inadvertently turn the Origo off, can you relight it immediately? Are the tops of the Origo stoves built as strongly as the tops of the Force Ten stoves? Do they come with or can you get pot holders?

 

[Rick D]

Steve's alter-ego here. Yes, you can relight immediately after it goes out. They are built stoutly. My two burner with oven was gimbaled and came with rails. I added pot holders. The only issue is to fill the canisters outside the stove (IE; don't try to pour into the canister while it is inside the stove.