hey everyone, I keep reading about phfr ratings, what do the numbers mean? how do you interpret them?
just curious
just curious
phrf ratings???
- Thread starter fred1diver
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I'm sure that others will chime in with more detail and forgive me if this is oversimplified. It is a handicap number that rates the boat's speed. The higher the number the slower the boat. Presumably, there is a boat out there with a PHRF of zero. The number is used to quantify how many seconds per mile a faster boat has to give a slower boat (time on distance). I do not know the exact formula. For example, if your boat has a PHRF of 100 and your competition is rated at 145 then you have the faster boat so you will have to beat him by so many seconds per mile to actually beat him. Make sense?
It gets somewhat complicated because boats have strengths and weaknesses in different conditions. A boat on a small lake may not have the same PHRF rating as the exact same boat on SF Bay. Different conditions.
If everyone in a PHRF fleet sailed to their rating, they would finish in that order, ascending value. PHRF is Performance Handicap Racing Fleet. Which actually started as Pacific Handicap Racing Fleet. I have a nice low number for my First 235 of 219. Which, seeing as I am not sailing to my rating yet, I get corrected over by boats I beat to the line. It's a time calculation over the race. Can be a wee bit frustrating at times but, it is used to try and even things out.
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Markbirds's description is good.
It's way to allows boats of differing type and lengthens to race each other.
As PHRF really measures a boats ability to go to straight to windward and straight downwind, it is also a very good way to measure the relative performance of simular length boats. The simular length part is important, because waterline and LOA play such a large part in a boats raw speed potential. As an example, a cross section of 30-foot boats with cruising interiors, you can see the range (all PHRF sec/mile handicaps):
Bristol 29.9 210
Catalina 30 180
J-boats J-30 140
First 30 JK 108
That's a 100 second/mile range, and it adds up. In our annual 60 mile Around The Islands race, sailed to their ratings, the First 30 would beat the Bristol by over a hour and a half!
It also takes the driver and crew out of the equation.
It's not perfect, and some boats have better days than others in differing conditions and courses. But it mostly works.
It's way to allows boats of differing type and lengthens to race each other.
As PHRF really measures a boats ability to go to straight to windward and straight downwind, it is also a very good way to measure the relative performance of simular length boats. The simular length part is important, because waterline and LOA play such a large part in a boats raw speed potential. As an example, a cross section of 30-foot boats with cruising interiors, you can see the range (all PHRF sec/mile handicaps):
Bristol 29.9 210
Catalina 30 180
J-boats J-30 140
First 30 JK 108
That's a 100 second/mile range, and it adds up. In our annual 60 mile Around The Islands race, sailed to their ratings, the First 30 would beat the Bristol by over a hour and a half!
It also takes the driver and crew out of the equation.
It's not perfect, and some boats have better days than others in differing conditions and courses. But it mostly works.
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Just wanted to add a little more math to Marcwbird's example. The boat with a PHRF rating of 100 would have to beat the boat with a PHRF rating of 145 by forty-five seconds for every mile that they race. So in a ten mile race the 100 rated boat would have the beat the 145 rated boat by more than 450 seconds or 7 minutes and 30 seconds. (145-100 x 10 = 450)
I've read this thread and another about handicapping with interest. I'm entering my boat in a regatta next month for the first time. I've only raced on other's boats. The race organizer asked me the make: ('77 Hunter), model: (Cherubini), jib size: (130), full or partial battens: (full), and whether or not I had a dodger: (no). Said he would find my handicap rating. Looked up the rating on a site provided by Jackdaw. Came out to 183. Does this make sense? Does anyone know the actual rating? BTW, this race has more to do with a good time and bragging rights, ( no entry fee and no trophy), so I'm not too concerned about splitting hairs on ratings but bragging rights are good, too.
I'm not a handicapping expert, but assuming your hunter is 30', a 183 rating sounds a little harsh, but not ridiculous. There are two hunter 30's rated in the Chesapeake, both rated 204 - search for hunter 30 in http://www.phrfchesbay.org/ValidList/2016_08_26.pdf. Also PHRF of New England lists a base handicap between 171 and 183 depending on keel (http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/base_handicaps), but then you have to add adjustments for things like fixed prop and roller furling. I'm guessing the adjustments would bring you up into the 190's.
The ratings vary between different regions based on boat performance in prevailing weather conditions, so it is possible that the number they gave you is appropriate for that area. Given that the race is just for bragging rights, I probably wouldn't argue it, since it's not totally off base and the race committee is nice enough to not require a formal cert.
I'm shocked he didn't ask for your keel config, or if you had a tall mast. But the number is in the ballpark. Most PHRF boards don't factor headsail size (unless bigger than 150) or if you have a dodger. But yours might? Sun coast?
[QUOTE="Hint : USS Nautilus.... Jim...[/QUOTE]
You sail a submarine ... or have a nuclear reactor ??? Wow, I'd figure that you'd get more than 7 seconds for hauling around so much lead.
Anyhow, PHRF is a linear formula that does not do well for great differences in speed or hull types - you cannot compare James' 40-knot submarine with my slow cruising boat, no matter how many seconds a mile he must give me. Also, it errs on the side of simplicity because it is based on seconds-per-mile (time over distance), rather than seconds-per-hour raced (time over time). This means the rating assumes "normal" race conditions with plenty of wind. When you have a particularly slow race (light air or heavier seas), a normal half-hour three-mile race may double in time, but the handicap does not change (still three miles times the difference in boats). As noted, that's much easier to calculate than multiplying by each boat's elapsed time.
You sail a submarine ... or have a nuclear reactor ??? Wow, I'd figure that you'd get more than 7 seconds for hauling around so much lead.
Anyhow, PHRF is a linear formula that does not do well for great differences in speed or hull types - you cannot compare James' 40-knot submarine with my slow cruising boat, no matter how many seconds a mile he must give me. Also, it errs on the side of simplicity because it is based on seconds-per-mile (time over distance), rather than seconds-per-hour raced (time over time). This means the rating assumes "normal" race conditions with plenty of wind. When you have a particularly slow race (light air or heavier seas), a normal half-hour three-mile race may double in time, but the handicap does not change (still three miles times the difference in boats). As noted, that's much easier to calculate than multiplying by each boat's elapsed time.
Actually, if every boat in a fleet sailed precisely to their rating, the corrected times would all be equal and it would be a tie. Although the fastest boat would complete the course first, the second fastest boat second and so forth.
In theory the rating should be based on actual performance of the class of boat in real races. Lake Ontario PHRF does a pretty good job of using real race data to calculate ratings. Welcome to PHRF Lake Ontario The site is a good resource for information about ratings and how PHRF-LO calculates them.
Generally PHRF does a pretty good job of handicapping a class of boats, however from my perspective there are 2 significant flaws in the PHRF. Flaw 1 is the adjustments that are made to ratings for things like oversize spin poles, fixed props, etc. are basically WAGs (Wild A... Guesses). Does an oversize spin pole really yield a 6 sec advantage?
Flaw 2 is that ratings can be skewed by the composition of the class and the number of different boats in the class. Explaining this becomes a little complicated. The PHRF rating is not really a boat rating, it is a rating of the interaction of the boat and crew and how other boats in the class are sailed. In other words, a PHRF rating for any one class of boats is a function of the boat design, the collective skills of the skippers and crews in the region, the typical boat preparation of the boats in the class in the region, and last the typical sailing conditions.
If you want to win a lot of PHRF races and you are a moderately talented racer the way to go is to find a class of boats that are racing who are mostly casual racers. Get a boat in that class, train your crew well, and put a lot of money into sails, bottom prep, and other go fast equipment that other skippers in your class aren't installing. Then go win races. In this situation, the biggest checkbook wins.
When ratings get adjusted (lowered) it is usually the result of a group of sailors in a class in a region who have improved their performance enough when compared to other classes in the region that the rating is no longer valid, i.e., too many boats in a class are winning too many races. If you haven't kept pace with new sails, bottom prep, etc, the rating adjustment punishes you, making it harder to do well without investing time, money, and effort.
In concept there is a better way. It is possible to rate individual boats and crews rather than a class of boats. Going in this direction would offset the checkbook size effect.
My rudder and keel are "submarine" but not the reason for the surprise 7 seconds.
Triva: USS Nautilus was the first operational nuclear powered submarine. It made history by being the first to prove the that there was NO land under the North Pole Ice Pack by going under in Atlantic and surfacing in Pacific. Hmmmm I wonder when that happened?
All boats in the same class in a PHRF race, if sailing exactly to their respective ratings (which hardly happens, ever) should cross the finish line in ascending order of the handicaps, i.e., 105, 108, 114, 120..., but that could happen even w/o perfect sailing. It's the interval between finishes that counts, such that when the handicap (correction) is applied, all of the boats finish in a "tie." Also, I'm unaware of an actual formula for PHRF. It's rather empirical, although there are some defined credits applied, such as a boat with a two blade fixed-prop gets a credit of 3 sec/mi over the very same boat having a folding prop, e.g., 105 vs 102, respectively. The PHRF rating is imperfect in many ways, IMHO, b/c the conditions of a given race will often disproportionately skew advantage in one direction or the other, as does the course sailed. For example, a yacht with a deep keel may fetch the weather mark first, but then lose the advantage heading downwind to boat with a flatter bottom and shallower draft. So, long upwind legs in strong air favors the first whereas long downwind legs, especially in lighter air, favors the second. Sailing to the rating would be irrelevant here b/c the rating represents the average performance over all conditions whereas the one particular race may not represent that average. It's like the stock market! You want stocks that go up fast when economic conditions are good, but that do not go down as fast or faster when they are not good. That is, hold on earlier gains when conditions change or become less favorable to you but more favorable to the other guy. Only certain kinds of yachts are designed to do that well--namely, racing yachts! What a surprise!
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@dlochner , that's pretty insightful stuff.
I think @cb32863 meant what you noted, that boats will CROSS THE LINE in so-called 'PHRF order' if they all sail to their rating. In the results they would tie as you note.
Regarding rating credits or penalties, I think that the PHRF boards are not trying to make those changes/differences equatable, but more to discourage you from doing that. -12 seconds for a bigger kite?? Don't do it. Only +6 for a fixed prop? Get a folder! They really want standard boats.
In the end, PHRF will always be slightly flawed. A single number for all courses and conditions, and while they try and null out crew-work, that's impossible. Like I tell people, if you don't like it, try one design!
I think @cb32863 meant what you noted, that boats will CROSS THE LINE in so-called 'PHRF order' if they all sail to their rating. In the results they would tie as you note.
Regarding rating credits or penalties, I think that the PHRF boards are not trying to make those changes/differences equatable, but more to discourage you from doing that. -12 seconds for a bigger kite?? Don't do it. Only +6 for a fixed prop? Get a folder! They really want standard boats.
In the end, PHRF will always be slightly flawed. A single number for all courses and conditions, and while they try and null out crew-work, that's impossible. Like I tell people, if you don't like it, try one design!
