phrf ratings???

Jan 11, 2014
12,700
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
[QUOTE="Hint : USS Nautilus.... Jim...
You sail a submarine ... or have a nuclear reactor ??? Wow, I'd figure that you'd get more than 7 seconds for hauling around so much lead. :)
Anyhow, PHRF is a linear formula that does not do well for great differences in speed or hull types - you cannot compare James' 40-knot submarine with my slow cruising boat, no matter how many seconds a mile he must give me. Also, it errs on the side of simplicity because it is based on seconds-per-mile (time over distance), rather than seconds-per-hour raced (time over time). This means the rating assumes "normal" race conditions with plenty of wind. When you have a particularly slow race (light air or heavier seas), a normal half-hour three-mile race may double in time, but the handicap does not change (still three miles times the difference in boats). As noted, that's much easier to calculate than multiplying by each boat's elapsed time.[/QUOTE]

There are a lot of shortcomings with a Time on Distance handicap, i.e., seconds/mile. The most obvious is that it is difficult to accurately measure distance on the water. Sure the weather mark was dropped at 1 mile from start line, but is it still 1 mile after it sets and the RC squares the line? As Parson notes, for TOD to work, the conditions must be constant throughout the race, which they seldom are. In a dying breeze faster boats get a bigger advantage.

A better method is to convert the TOD handicaps (102, 114, etc) to Time on Time handicaps. First time can be measured more accurately than distance, and varying conditions become less of an issue because only time is being measured and not time and distance. Here's a link to an article on TOT: ‎www.phrf-lo.org/images/Documents/Time_On_Time_Scoring.pdf
 
Jan 11, 2014
12,700
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
Also, I'm unaware of an actual formula for PHRF. It's rather empirical, although there are some defined credits applied, such as a boat with a two blade fixed-prop gets a credit of 3 sec/mi over the very same boat having a folding prop, e.g., 105 vs 102, respectively.
PHRF-LO uses statistical information to evaluate handicaps. Each year they calculate the actual rating that each competing boat sails to and then looks at the performance of each class. They use the information to determine if the performance of a class is getting better or worse and then make adjustments as necessary.

The PHRF rating is imperfect in many way, IMHO, b/c the conditions of a given race will often disproportionately skew advantage in one direction or the other, as does the course sailed. For example, a yacht with a deep keel may fetch the weather mark first, but then lose the advantage heading downwind to boat with a flatter bottom and shallower draft. So, long upwind legs in strong air favors the first whereas long downwind legs, especially in lighter air, favors the second. Sailing to the rating would be irrelevant here b/c the rating represents the average performance over all conditions whereas the one particular race may not represent that average. It's like the stock market! You want stocks that go up fast when economic conditions are good, but that do not go down as fast or faster when they are not good. That is, hold on earlier gains when conditions change or become less favorable to you but more favorable to the other guy. Only certain kinds of yachts are designed to do that well--namely, racing yachts! What a surprise!
This issue can be mitigated to some extent by controlling for the race course when determining the boats' handicap. A handicap developed for use on Windward/Leeward courses would equalize performance of all boats on W/L courses but not on Triangles, or irregularly shaped courses. There have been other options, Olympic Course, Gold Cup, Triangles with additional legs, trapezoidal courses all attempts to give each different class of boats the opportunity to sail a leg optimized for their type of boat.

{edited to fix formatting issues}
 
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Jan 11, 2014
12,700
Sabre 362 113 Fair Haven, NY
@dlochner , that's pretty insightful stuff.

In the end, PHRF will always be slightly flawed. A single number for all courses and conditions, and while they try and null out crew-work, that's impossible. Like I tell people, if you don't like it, try one design!
Jackdaw, Thanks. A friend and I spent a couple of years looking at developing handicaps for individual boats rather than classes of boats. Some of our work was noticed by Scuttlebutt. Focus on Fairness in Local Competition >> Scuttlebutt Sailing News

At the risk of getting pretty wonky boat handicapping systems are barking up the wrong tree. They keep trying to equate boats, compensate for crew skills, weather conditions, and so forth. As a result we end up with a mess of ideas, some accurate, some not, and an inherently unfair system that rewards some and punishes others.

Another way of looking at handicapping is from a statistical point of view. A "sailed to" handicap can be calculated for almost every race a boat sails in. Over time a distribution of those "sailed to" handicaps will form and from that distribution a boats individual rating can be calculated. The rating would be the best estimate of the boat's typical performance, in practical terms, it would be the median of the distribution of sailed to ratings. Since the rating is based solely on a particular boats performance compared to other boats in the race, how other boats in a class perform does not directly affect the boat's rating. In deed, similar boats will have different ratings.

What happens on the race course with this kind of rating? A boat that sails slower than it's typical performance will always lose to a boat that to sails to its rating or faster. If 2 boats sail slower than their rating, the boat that is closer to its rating will win. If 2 boats sail faster than their rating, then the boat that further away from its rating will win. Both boats sail exactly to their rating and they tie.
 
May 12, 2004
1,505
Hunter Cherubini 30 New Port Richey
The ratings vary between different regions based on boat performance in prevailing weather conditions, so it is possible that the number they gave you is appropriate for that area. Given that the race is just for bragging rights, I probably wouldn't argue it, since it's not totally off base and the race committee is nice enough to not require a formal cert.
I'm shocked he didn't ask for your keel config, or if you had a tall mast. But the number is in the ballpark. Most PHRF boards don't factor headsail size (unless bigger than 150) or if you have a dodger. But yours might? Sun coast?
The local YC here is sponsoring this race. It's only the second race they've held. The first being a few months ago that I was unable to attend. They're doing this as a fun event to get the local sailors together and, I'm sure, to increase their membership. The ratings they assign are probably going to be pretty loose so any number they give me will be fine. Remember, no entry fee, no prizes, just braggin' rights and copious amounts of libations at the YC afterwards. Maybe even during.

I, also, thought that keel config and type of rig would figure into the rating, but was not asked that. I don't have a dodger, but do have a bimini. Would that figure into it? Not that it will matter that much. Everyone here on the Suncoast has a bimini, much like those of you in the cold climes has a dodger.

This ratings game stuff has been pretty enlightening and interesting. I've raced in other, more serious races, but always on other peoples boats but never fully understood how this worked. All I understood was that there was lots of yelling :cuss: followed by lots of drinking. :dancing:
 
Jul 27, 2011
5,134
Bavaria 38E Alamitos Bay
Here's what is looked at. (See link.) The owner fills in the information on the boat measurements. A rating committee meets, looks at the application, then the chief handicapper for the area assigns the boat a rating. If it's a one-off boat for the area, say an X-boat or similar, the rating might be tweaked some toward the faster (lower) rating, but after 5 races the owner can request a rating review where "data" on the boat's performance is evaluated. However, the reviewers assume the boat has new sails, a clean bottom, and a polished crew that has sailed together for a while, etc. It's a bit of a tight rope b/c if the new one-off boat in the area immediately starts sweeping first places, then the skipper of another boat can request a rating review of the newbie boat. The skippers of these newbie boats always seem to feel they get a drubbing on the initial rating. But, IMHO, it's mostly like the 90-stroker who buys championship clubs then doesn't understand why his game isn't improving.

http://www.phrfsocal.org/new-member-application/
 
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JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,744
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Operation Sunshine resulted in the successful arrival of USS Nautilus at the north pole 58 years, 29 days ago. Another legacy of Admiral Hyman Rickover!
If you are old enough to have lived before that launching you get the "creaking bones" 7 seconds.;)
Jim...
 

Gunni

.
Mar 16, 2010
5,937
Beneteau 411 Oceanis Annapolis
I was a pup sir, but I do remember when the USA went big.
 
Oct 24, 2010
2,405
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
Okay, Let's say I was looking to buy a used boat. Is there a place I can look up the ratings of the boats I have to choose from?
Ken
 

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,744
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Is there a place I can look up the ratings of the boats
I can send you a 12 page list of the Gulf Yachting Association PHRF listings if you want. My boat has a 141 + 7 = 148 rating.
You might get close by a boat size. Example: There are 3 - Hunter 30's listed as 216, 219, 222. And for the 7 - Catalina 30's range from 177 to 213. So does that help you pick a boat?

My boat would normally leave yours way behind in a heads up race, mainly hull length. Thus an attempt by PHRF handicapping to make a fair race.
Jim...

PS: Your crew may not like looking at my "sugar scoop" as we pass you.:waycool:
 
Oct 24, 2010
2,405
Hunter 30 Everett, WA
Somehow I expect everyone would beat me. I need to pull it out to clean and new bottom paint. New sails might help too.
Ken
 
Jun 2, 2007
404
Beneteau First 375 Slidell, LA
My boat has a 141 + 7 = 148 rating.
Not to belabor a point, but your net rating on the GYA website is 141, which should include your 6 second roller-furling credit. Note that all PHRF handicaps and adjustments are normally in increments of 3 sec/mi, which is usually pretty close to 1 boatlength after sailing 1 mile.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,468
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
Okay, Let's say I was looking to buy a used boat. Is there a place I can look up the ratings of the boats I have to choose from?
Ken
I usually go to Eastern Connecticut Sailing Association. They have a PHRF lookup feature. Unfortunately it is yearly so if your sister ship didn't sail in 2016 it won't be in there. So you could search 2015. That's a PITA. I'm going to try the GYA site. And, yes whenever I look at a boat to buy I always check it's PHRF #.
 
Jan 1, 2006
7,468
Slickcraft 26 Sailfish
I can send you a 12 page list of the Gulf Yachting Association PHRF listings if you want.
Maybe you could post a link? Or maybe it could be posted on this site as a reference? It's always interesting to see what a particular boat is rated somewhere else.
 
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
Okay, Let's say I was looking to buy a used boat. Is there a place I can look up the ratings of the boats I have to choose from?
Ken
The national list of fleets per boat that I'm been posting from is a service of US Sailing. Updated annually, every boat and every US Sailing affiliated PHRF fleet is in the document. While I'm OK posting individual boats, it is a member benefit, so I can't make the whole thing available.
 

JamesG161

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Feb 14, 2014
7,744
Hunter 430 Waveland, MS
Nov 8, 2010
11,386
Beneteau First 36.7 & 260 Minneapolis MN & Bayfield WI
A PHRF rating of zero simply means that boat that can sail a mile of W/L course in 550 seconds. Your ratings means that you should typically sail that mile in 550+rating seconds.