Over powered by the jib? How do I know?

[joes new addiction]

This has happened a few tiimes before, but until now I've been putting it off as "pilot error", but, today I got to wondering.

This is on my PT 1/4 22' swing keel.

She sporting a new main and jib sails. I took the sails I got with her and measured it up for new ones when I ordered them thinking they were the "right ones". There isn't a great deal of info on this boat out there, so it's been a "poke and hope" when it came to the sails.

I've been reading Don Guillette's "sail tuning" and I gotta tell you, it's been helping me set her up. The P.O. didn't know anything about sailing and had just about the entire setup wrong. I set her up the way he had it not knowing it was wrong. I've been setting one thing up trying it, read some more, do another thing... me thinks I've just about got it done.

Today, there was a good steady breeze, with some gusts, I dunno how many knots these gusts were, but they weren't "Look Out Batman" type gusts.

Finally got to see if the work I've done has helped or hurt her.

Now she sails REAL close to the wind, I'm happy, I can set the sails up pretty easy, I head out, I know (well kinda), what to do. But today, here's what happens:

I get hit by a gust, and she'll over power the rudder, it's all the way over leeward and the boat will still do a spin. The main is set up good, tell tales streaming, "flipping" just like how the book says should happen.
But, if I let out the jib, (dump the wind, "take my foot off the gas"), a lot I can regain control.

I noticed the other boats were not having the same problem I was, and my sails were pretty much set up like theirs.

Could I have a bigger jib than what I'm supposed to? How do you determine the size of the jib SHOULD be on there. Now, this boat is a was a pure racing boat when she was built in the 70's with a crew of 3, I'm now soloing sailing it, can that have somethng to do with it?
OR.....

Is this a case of "Pilot Error" or "Equipment Error"?

Joe

 

[cjb300]

Try 'dumping' the mainsail when a gust hits, or ideally right before it hits. If you have a traveller on the main, let it down before dumping the mainsheet. This will de-power the boat, keep you more upright and the rudder will not be so loaded.

Good luck and have fun!

 

[Joe]

Re: Jib over powering? How do I know..........

I'm going to agree with cjb300 here, you're dumping the wrong sail. It sounds like the gust is heeling the boat over and causing it to round up violently. That's called "broaching"....... drop the main down with the traveller or spill air quickly with the mainsheet.

Lake sailing can be very challenging because of gusts and sudden wind direction changes. You should have one hand on the tiller and the other on the sheet or traveller.
When I sailed my Nacra or Laser, I rarely cleated the mainsheet. Things can happen quite suddenly, so you must be prepared to make instant adjustments..... the easiest is to dump the main because you can also re power it up just as quickly.

In your beginning stages of sailing, it is important to feel safe and under control.... so don't cleat the mainsheet and the traveler at the same time if you're sailing near the edge..... you know what I mean? Your confidence will develop rapidly if you know how to keep the boat flat and handle these little crises.

Next time you go out, experiment with the effects of overpowering the mainsail.... and how to control it. Hoist your small jib and simply concentrate on the mainsail.

 

[finding41]

Re: Jib over powering? How do I know..........

I set my jib and leave it alone. I let the main out for the gusts and pull it in when there over. One hand on the tiller and one on the main sheet. I let out when I'm just about standing on the other seat. Sooner if the admiral is aboard.

 

[Nodak7]

Re: Jib over powering? How do I know..........

Joe, we sail on a lake that has high bluffs and therefore lots of gusts. As mentioned earlier in this thread depower the main in gusts by releasing the traveler first. If you have to continue to do that then release your mainsheet until you can retrieve your traveler back towards the midship position. As a general rule I try to keep at least 1/4 of my traveler in the event of a big gust. If you continue to depower like this then it is time for you to reef the main and start the process all over again.

 

[Stu Jackson]

This came up just last week. Do a Google on "luff perpendicular" and find out how big your jib really is.

Reef your main? Do you have the hardware for that?

Read the website from sailmakers, they have a lot of good info. Also consider buying a book, like Sailing for Dummies. It really IS a good book.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Joe, with respect to your jib size, it all depends on the wind. In a perfect world, you would have multiple jibs or genoas in a variety of sizes so that you could choose the right jib or genny for the day's conditions. But there is more than one way to skin a cat ... you could add a roller furler / reefer to your forestay and purchase a large genoa that you could fully deploy in light wind and roll up (or reef) when the wind is too strong for the full size. You might also have reefing grommets sewn into your hanked-on genoa which would give you the ability to haul down the largest area at the foot of the sail if you are over-powered.

If you recently purchased new sails, you should have had a discussion about the size of genoa to purchase. If you purchased a genoa with a 150% overlap (like I did several years ago) you may find that it is over-sized for days like we had yesterday and today. Mine is hanked-on and I have no reefing grommets, so it means I was stuck with what I had, since I have left my smaller 110% genny in the basement.

Like others have said, the best response when getting over-powered is to change the angle of attack of the mainsail with your traveler and/or mainsheet. My experience has been that I can't point as high with my large genoa, especially when it is getting over-powered, so I just live with a lower pointing angle when going upwind. I think it is not a good idea to ease the genny when it just leads to flogging, which is bad for the sail.

 

[Stu Jackson]

Sounds right, Scott. And lighter boats tend to be more tender for starters. It will be interesting to learn what equipment the OP has on his boat.

 

[Joe]

I think we're all pretty much on the same page.....Joe's addiction just needs to understand what's happening and practice making the quick adjustment.

First he balances the sails for the day's conditions... then if it's a gusty day, he has a plan to deal with that and is ready when it happens.

 

[joes new addiction]

Hmmm, now that I've read all the comments, Your correct, I should have dump the main, one of the first things I learned at my ASA class!. We'll call it a "senior moment"!
I have many times before, When the water looks like the breeze is ready to attack or where I KNOW where the breeze get's "angry" on the lake, (when you sail the same 3 times a week since May, you get to know the wind patterns, this lake is odd).
I usually have the main sheet in my hand or very close by at all times since the time a gust snuck up on me and almost knocked me down and scared the beejesus outta me,but yesterday I was SO fixated with setting the jib, seeing how close I could point, getting the telltales I just installed on the jib on it flowing.
On my this winter's "get list' is a roller Furling set up as well as slugs for the main sail so I can raise it and flake it easier, (presently I do it all at the dock, let it weather vane til I get clear of the "no wake bouy").
She didn't heel much which is what had me baffled, just "Broaching" really bad.
I also was looking at a map of the lake at the marina shop where I was getting some things afterward.
It showed the "orginal river" and how it ran through the valley? where the lake was now.
Could I have hit that current and got shoved "downstream", kinda like a lake rip tide?
The area where it happend is a narrow strecth of the lake where I have to pass through to get to my slip.
I've never reefed my sail cuz I "had" to, just did it a few times out on the water to practice and know how to.
I figure if it's bad enough for a reef, I'll hang at the dock!
Thanks
Joe
Know what my boat needs? Remember the computer on 2001 a Space Odessy? Hal 9000?
That's what I need!
I can hear it now, "Dump the main Dave".
"I don't wanna Hal, I wanna dump the jib"
"I can't do that Dave"

 

[wflowe2]

A good way to remember what to dump, rename the main sheet the "chicken sheet"

 

[Harry McCoy]

Joe there is like zero current flowing down the river at Lake Wallempaupack,, where I also sail, keeping a boat in the marina at ironwood point. The lake is notorious for squirrelly winds due to surrounding hills and valleys and coves, and the lower strecht of "the river" is the nastiest for shifting puffs.

You need a good traveler sytem to ease, as well as the main sheet to control these puffs. If so equipped, backstay adjustment adding more bend should open the leech and dump excess air high in the main. Outhaul, topping, vang cunningham? Paupack sailing club is quite active and a friendly helpful bunch, racing on every other sunday. check out the web site; everyone helps everyone.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

The Lackawaxen River ...

I love that name and it's a pretty river, too. I've made that drive several times from the Delaware River to Hawley. I don't think a the current would be much if anything in that flooded river bed.

We've had some gusty south winds in the last few weeks, although yesterday was more westerly. Yesterday, Sue was sunning on the fore deck while we were broad reaching. But before long, the lay of the lake changed enough that I had to put the wind on our beam and I reeled in the genoa. Sue had to grab a stanchion to keep from sliding under the lifelines (I thought that was pretty funny!).

You should have had some nice reaches heading north to the widest sections of the lake during the last few weeks when the wind has been strongest from the south. If you have a large genoa (let us know what the dimensions are ... that would give people an understanding of the overlap vs wind speed) it is obviously much more fun to sail downwind.

If I'm going to be over-powered with a large genoa, I tend to just go with the flow. There are days with a light wind when I want to sail upwind to improve the apparent wind, but it sucks going downwind (very hot and windless). Lately, I've been struggling as little as possible being over-powered upwind just so I can enjoy those blasting reaches with a big genoa. A few days ago, I finished a nice long (relatively speaking, of course) downwind romp for the length of the lake and then tucked into a cove to drop sails, anchor, put the sails away and go for a swim. With 95 degrees and 20 knots apparent from the south, I didn't feel guilty at all about motoring home for dinner!

 

[bffatcat]

overpowered ?

What you have here is a light 22ft Keel Centerboard boat It`s going to be tender, but you should not be taking knockdowns on every puff. If this is happening you have too much sail up. You should put a reef in your main. If you are still overpowered you have to reduce sail
more, either by taking your main down or rolling your jib: I dont know if you have roller furl
If you dont you cannot reduce your jib size. rolling up a jib partway is a catch 22. It changes the shape of the sail and puts the luff where is is not supposed to be resulting in poor performance and eventually stretching out the sail. I never do it. My choice is to completely
take the main down first. About Jibs they come in different sizes for different wind conditions.
The prudent sailor selects a jib for the current wind conditions. If conditions change which they sometimes do, changes have to made. This means changing jibs underway. Its unpleasant but sometimes you have to do it. I do and Im 75

 

[SEMIJim]

There's actually several ways to de-power. Which you use/need will depend upon the situation.

• Dump the main (as already noted) and possibly the jib
• Head up (pinch)
• Fall off (head down)

If you're trying to maintain course, and particularly if it's expected to be a long "puff": Letting the main out, and possibly even de-powering the jib a bit, is the way to go. It's best to de-power the main by dropping the traveller, if you have one, rather than letting the sheet out.

For short puffs: Often pinching or falling off temporarily is quicker and easier, because it's just a couple moves of the tiller/wheel.

Funny story: The Admiral and I were attending ASA 101 and 103 classes, prior to going down to pick up Abracadabra. The instructor had taught us about pinching when a puff started to overpower the helm, and mother nature obligingly gave us each opportunities to try it. But one time, when I was at the helm, on a starboard tack, a bigger, longer-duration puff (that, in retrospect, was clocking on us) came up. I started to pinch and quickly found that the more I pinched the further over we were going. I instinctively fell off, the boat stood up, the puff abated and I steered back on course. The instructor looked at me "I didn't teach you guys that, yet." "Just came natural, I guess," I told him

Jim

 

[uncledom]

Joe if your sailing on the edge deliberately then traveler down, main sheet out in that order for the puffs like everyone else said. But if your tired of working that hard I like to cheat by twisting the heck out of the main. Either loosen the vang or use a topping lift to raise the back of the boom and introduce twist. Then set the sail so the bottom is set correctly into the wind and the mid and top will be off the wind effectively dumping most of the heeling force and some driving force. I only do this if the wind isn't strong enough to warrant reefing the main. If there are guests on board I try to sail with the wind abaft the beam for a flatter more predictable ride. Fair winds.

 

[SailingHarry]

Joe,

In an ideal world, with a well-equipped racing boat with all the right sails and crew to do it, you need a smaller jib. In *MY* world, with only one jib and no crew, that isn't an option.

My jib is a 150% and is a roller furler, so I could reef it. However, it's a very heavy jib, and I find that I'm much happier reefing the main first. If I put in two reefs in the main, I can sail in quite heavy air. Keeping the jib full size and reefing the main puts the center of effort forward, helping to kill the lee helm and tendency to round up. Obviously, there comes a time where you need to shorten more, and then I have to roll the jib some, but until that point I find that a full jib and a double reefed main is SWEET!

 

[Joe Diver]

Another thing to keep in mind:

Situational awareness. Keep your head on a swivel and try to anticipate what's coming at you. A single moments inattention can bite you. Plus, it happens man...to all of us. Nobody is perfect.

It happened to me once...I got "punched" so my sailing coach told me after the fact. I was so focused on my jib trim and keeping my sails full on a day of radically changing wind conditions....I wasn't paying attention to the massive puff coming at me from the side....which hit and in a matter of a few seconds I had heeled over so hard and fast I felt like I was going to be thrown from the boat....and the boat rounded up immediately. I had no control over it and could not have stopped it. I had no time to spill the main either.

Scared the crap out of me....and I learned a lesson that day.

 

[shnool]

Joe, I am also at Wallenpaupack and sail with Harry in the sail club races. He's a helluva sailor, I can attest to that (and he regularly kicks my keester in races).

Yep, traveler down if you can, if not then sheet out, main first then jib. Also if you can sail alongside someone else, you can get a feel for what they are doing by mimicking their trim. The standard rules apply though, everything set light in light winds, everything tightened up in heavy winds, if you get overpowered, dump the main first, then the jib.

Oh and one other thing... if you watch the lake to windward (where the winds come from), you'll be able to see "blacker" water. That's a puff, figure the puff will come to you about the same speed the average winds blow. You can count down then the time it takes for a "PUFF" to hit you, and you can unsheet before it hits, to keep you flat. A PUFF will seem to come around you (luff your sails), then will LIFT you (come back towards windward), it's when that happens, you can literally steer more towards the wind, and ride it out flatter without having to dump. This is feathering. YOu can literally zig zag while feathering towards windward, trying to keep the boat flatter.

Capri 25, Chute 'n' Dawg, boat number 57.

Having seen the jib while you were on the water once or twice, I'd say it's likely a good blade for the boat, and doesn't appear at a glance to be oversized (maybe cut a might bit high on deck, but that probably just makes it much easier to tack, reminds me of my Capri 22's jib actually). If you were out in yesterday's winds (I think you were), then those winds were pretty stout, Force 4 at times for sure (13-17mph). That's a difficult wind to "learn" with on a smaller boat (24 or less feet). But I give you great props if you were sailing in that!

By the way, are you selling the boat? Is this it on Ebay? Sorry stumbled across it trying to place the boat make http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271032721953&viewitem=#v4-39 Did anyone tell you, that sailing also breeds a disease called "2 foot itis?" HA, either way, great looking boat!

If you were looking to sell, I'd try sailboatlistings.com, and craigslist as well, and also list on here.

As always, feel free to ask any club member ANYTHING. We are all still learning, anyone who says they aren't is lying to themselves.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=271032721953&viewitem=#v4-39

 

[tahoemark]

All good advice. One thing I hadn't seen mentioned. How is the balance of your tiller in general? If you have strong windward helm most of the time, need to adjust mast. If you have trouble "visualizing" how wind travels around hills etc. I always think about water flowing around a rock in the stream, it will flow around both sides and the top with areas where it accelerates and then of course has dead spots as well.