Over powered by the jib? How do I know?

[stanz4]

Weather helm

Sounds like a classic case of weather helm. The other two comment were correct, you're dumping the wrong sail. You want to keep the front most sail powered (appropriate for the wind conditions) and reduce the main sail. This will move the center of effort (CE) closer to the center of lateral resistance (CLR).

Additionally, you could move as much gear and other heavy items further aft before you set off. This moves the CLR closer to the CE.

If sailing in gusty conditions, reef the main and trim until your telltales stream nicely. Increase your uphaul and outhaul on the main to the flatten the sail.

Most importantly, don't let this put you off taking her out. Keep trying. The worst that will happen already has: weather helm turns the boat into the wind which is self limiting.

 

[amry69]

Great advise, I'm loving this forum. I learn so much. I had a challenging day yesterday on Canyon Lake. As the name implies I'm getting lots of experience with gusts and changing wind direction. Typically I'll try to head up a little (with the main sheet in my hand in case it's not enough) because it's fun to go fast upwind. I usually let out the main about when I am standing on the other locker. Yesterday I did reef and then shook the reef (weird gusty day, too light to reef, too gusty not to). I'm always amazed how fast I can go reefed or reefed with one sail. More to it than sail area I guess. I don't think I have done a full fledged broach yet but I'm sure other boats are watching me shaking their heads. Fortunately I don't care; that's the beautiful thing about being me.

 

[Douglast]

on our lake black clouds and east wind i usually let the laundry down and use the occasion to brew a cup of coffee to see what comes of it...generally they are real brutes of a wind that starts...i am getting quite comfortable at sailing close to the wind in the heavy winds with both sails up and my hand on the main sheet ready to let yer slack if needed...i do have a small jib...but willikers i sure haven;t used my traveler much and after reading all these posts i sure am going to start using it and getting used to it...

 

[James DAddio]

overpower

We found that our 180 Geneoa was usually over powering our 28 O'day in a brisk wind and always had to furl that sail or loose control at the helm

This has happened a few tiimes before, but until now I've been putting it off as "pilot error", but, today I got to wondering.

This is on my PT 1/4 22' swing keel.

She sporting a new main and jib sails. I took the sails I got with her and measured it up for new ones when I ordered them thinking they were the "right ones". There isn't a great deal of info on this boat out there, so it's been a "poke and hope" when it came to the sails.

I've been reading Don Guillette's "sail tuning" and I gotta tell you, it's been helping me set her up. The P.O. didn't know anything about sailing and had just about the entire setup wrong. I set her up the way he had it not knowing it was wrong. I've been setting one thing up trying it, read some more, do another thing... me thinks I've just about got it done.

Today, there was a good steady breeze, with some gusts, I dunno how many knots these gusts were, but they weren't "Look Out Batman" type gusts.

Finally got to see if the work I've done has helped or hurt her.

Now she sails REAL close to the wind, I'm happy, I can set the sails up pretty easy, I head out, I know (well kinda), what to do. But today, here's what happens:

I get hit by a gust, and she'll over power the rudder, it's all the way over leeward and the boat will still do a spin. The main is set up good, tell tales streaming, "flipping" just like how the book says should happen.
But, if I let out the jib, (dump the wind, "take my foot off the gas"), a lot I can regain control.

I noticed the other boats were not having the same problem I was, and my sails were pretty much set up like theirs.

Could I have a bigger jib than what I'm supposed to? How do you determine the size of the jib SHOULD be on there. Now, this boat is a was a pure racing boat when she was built in the 70's with a crew of 3, I'm now soloing sailing it, can that have somethng to do with it?
OR.....

Is this a case of "Pilot Error" or "Equipment Error"?

Joe

 

[James DAddio]

overpower

We found that our 180 Geneoa was usually over powering our 28 O'day in a brisk wind and always had to furl that sail or loose control at the helm. You will find that the boat doesn't respond @ the helm and there is pressure on the rudder.

This has happened a few tiimes before, but until now I've been putting it off as "pilot error", but, today I got to wondering.

This is on my PT 1/4 22' swing keel.

She sporting a new main and jib sails. I took the sails I got with her and measured it up for new ones when I ordered them thinking they were the "right ones". There isn't a great deal of info on this boat out there, so it's been a "poke and hope" when it came to the sails.

I've been reading Don Guillette's "sail tuning" and I gotta tell you, it's been helping me set her up. The P.O. didn't know anything about sailing and had just about the entire setup wrong. I set her up the way he had it not knowing it was wrong. I've been setting one thing up trying it, read some more, do another thing... me thinks I've just about got it done.

Today, there was a good steady breeze, with some gusts, I dunno how many knots these gusts were, but they weren't "Look Out Batman" type gusts.

Finally got to see if the work I've done has helped or hurt her.

Now she sails REAL close to the wind, I'm happy, I can set the sails up pretty easy, I head out, I know (well kinda), what to do. But today, here's what happens:

I get hit by a gust, and she'll over power the rudder, it's all the way over leeward and the boat will still do a spin. The main is set up good, tell tales streaming, "flipping" just like how the book says should happen.
But, if I let out the jib, (dump the wind, "take my foot off the gas"), a lot I can regain control.

I noticed the other boats were not having the same problem I was, and my sails were pretty much set up like theirs.

Could I have a bigger jib than what I'm supposed to? How do you determine the size of the jib SHOULD be on there. Now, this boat is a was a pure racing boat when she was built in the 70's with a crew of 3, I'm now soloing sailing it, can that have somethng to do with it?
OR.....

Is this a case of "Pilot Error" or "Equipment Error"?

Joe

 

[SEMIJim]

We found that our 180 Geneoa was usually over powering our 28 O'day in a brisk wind and always had to furl that sail or loose control at the helm

Abracadabra came with three Genoas: The original polyester 155, a Mylar light air 155 and a Kevlar heavy air 155. The original is part of what we call the "cruising set," the latter two are of the "racing set." I think we've only used the racing heavy air Genoa once, and that was by accident. The light air racing 155 is okay up to about 12 kts, beyond which you risk destroying it. Our boat is headsail-driven, and is way too much for a shorthanded crew, with a 155 up there, in over about 15 kts, anyway. So when it's too much for the light air 155, the #3 comes out.

We actually have an unused 155 that still has hanks on it. I'm going to have our sail loft look at it with an eye toward cutting it down to a #2. I'm thinking 125. We might pull that off, short-handed, with a reef in the main, in the 15-20 kt range.

TBH: If I could cut that Kevlar Genoa down to a #2, and the other down to a #3, I would. I cannot envision us ever trying to fly a 155 in greater than 15 kts. We don't have the kind of crew the PO had.

Jim

 

[larry7072]

When I'm in that situation, I will furl my 135 Genoa to a small jib and then use the traveller to help dump wind from my main. If that does't do the job then I'll consider reefing my main. I find that 2 sails is always better than one especially if where I'm headed is anywhere up wind.

 

[shnool]

180 Geneoa

180? Geesh! Suffer a little light are do we?

 

[finding41]

I've a 155 and am currently looking for a spinnaker of some type. I just don't know weather to go from the top of the mast or a higher fraction of my fractional rig. Or what kind to get.
That 180. Wow. Is that equal to a code 0?
I was out today with in 2 knot gusts. Had the 155 and no weather helm. We moved a bit when an airplane went over though.

 

[Mike1956]

I think that what is happening here isn't really a "Broach". By not spilling the wind with the main sail, and instead dumping the genoa, he's creating severe weather helm and "rounding up" into the wind. I sail a Catalina 22, which is kinda tender, and know from experience that spilling wind if it gets gusty, or putting a reef in if the wind picks up is much more pleasant, faster, and less stress on the boat and the crew.

 

[justsomeguy]

I've a 155 and am currently looking for a spinnaker of some type. I just don't know weather to go from the top of the mast or a higher fraction of my fractional rig. Or what kind to get.
That 180. Wow. Is that equal to a code 0?
I was out today with in 2 knot gusts. Had the 155 and no weather helm. We moved a bit when an airplane went over though.

A higher fraction.
Install a new fitting a short distance above your forestay. Don't fly a spinnaker from the top, as there are no shrouds offering lateral support up there.

 

[shnool]

Wait, fractionals fly spins from the top all the time, no? He has shrouds, lowers (fore and aft) and backstay right?

 

[justsomeguy]

Wait, fractionals fly spins from the top all the time, no? He has shrouds, lowers (fore and aft) and backstay right?

It's certainly possible. But I think I'd try to keep it as close to DDW as possible.

Leverage happens.