On my 2002 26X, there is no marking for minimum or maximum on the outhaul along the boom.......what would be the minimum?, just slight tension and maximum would be a slight crease along the foot?
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Trimming the outhaul
Timm, The outhaul is an important sail trim adjustment. You shouldn't just set it and forget it. It controls the sail fullness in the bottom third. For a sail to be efficient in light breezes, it needs to be full (like the wing of a crop duster). A looser outhaul lets the sail bow out. Don't loosen it so much that you get vertical wrinkles. You probably want the sail to bow about 4 1/2" but no more than 5" off the boom. In strong winds, the lift is blown farther back on the sail and becomes drag. You need a flatter sail (like the wing of a fighter jet) to compensate. This is when you tighten the outhaul. A flatter sail will have more forward power and reduce heeling in strong winds. You may want only 2 1/2" to 3" of bow from the boom in 15 knot winds. You may want to mark your boom and keep records of your settings. The outhaul is mentioned in MacGregor’s “How to Sail” article on related link. Happy sails *_/), MArk "Measurement is the basis of all knowledge." - Lord Kelvin
Timm, The outhaul is an important sail trim adjustment. You shouldn't just set it and forget it. It controls the sail fullness in the bottom third. For a sail to be efficient in light breezes, it needs to be full (like the wing of a crop duster). A looser outhaul lets the sail bow out. Don't loosen it so much that you get vertical wrinkles. You probably want the sail to bow about 4 1/2" but no more than 5" off the boom. In strong winds, the lift is blown farther back on the sail and becomes drag. You need a flatter sail (like the wing of a fighter jet) to compensate. This is when you tighten the outhaul. A flatter sail will have more forward power and reduce heeling in strong winds. You may want only 2 1/2" to 3" of bow from the boom in 15 knot winds. You may want to mark your boom and keep records of your settings. The outhaul is mentioned in MacGregor’s “How to Sail” article on related link. Happy sails *_/), MArk "Measurement is the basis of all knowledge." - Lord Kelvin
Loosefooted
This is not a loosefooted main.......I understand the jist of the outhaul and how it works......I was just looking for a starting point as to what was the minimum and what was maximum outhaul tension. I do appreciate the input though. I just don't want to damage the main by pulling on it to hard.
This is not a loosefooted main.......I understand the jist of the outhaul and how it works......I was just looking for a starting point as to what was the minimum and what was maximum outhaul tension. I do appreciate the input though. I just don't want to damage the main by pulling on it to hard.
Affect on full battens?
How much influence can I expect on a full-battened main? Will it only affect the foot area, or will it have some effect on the roach as well? Thanks.
How much influence can I expect on a full-battened main? Will it only affect the foot area, or will it have some effect on the roach as well? Thanks.
Footloose and fancy free
Timm, Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't referring to a loose footed main. When I mentioned measuring from the boom to the sail bow (belly), I was referring to the sail above the boom. When the outhaul is pulled tight, the foot can curl and almost touch the boom. You can pull quite a bit on the outhaul without damaging the sail. It's best to make your adjustment based on your sail shape while actually sailing. (more on link) MArk
Timm, Sorry for the confusion. I wasn't referring to a loose footed main. When I mentioned measuring from the boom to the sail bow (belly), I was referring to the sail above the boom. When the outhaul is pulled tight, the foot can curl and almost touch the boom. You can pull quite a bit on the outhaul without damaging the sail. It's best to make your adjustment based on your sail shape while actually sailing. (more on link) MArk
Full battens
Bruce, I don't think the outhaul affects the upper part of the sail much, especially with full battens. For cruising, full battens should not be in the lower part of the sail and never below the reef lines. Full battens attached to a rotating mast that flexes the leading edge would be interesting but probably not practical for cruising. MArk
Bruce, I don't think the outhaul affects the upper part of the sail much, especially with full battens. For cruising, full battens should not be in the lower part of the sail and never below the reef lines. Full battens attached to a rotating mast that flexes the leading edge would be interesting but probably not practical for cruising. MArk
Check
I know what you're saying.........I just didn't know what the limits of the outhaul tension was.......but, you said that it can handle a lot of tension. So, when I rip out the grommet from the clew, I can tell Macgregor that "Marc said it was OK". J/K.......anyway. Hey, let me ask you this though...in one condition you could tighten it up enough to develope a slight crease along the foot, but in stronger winds at that setting it could dissapear because of the amount of pressure on the sail?
I know what you're saying.........I just didn't know what the limits of the outhaul tension was.......but, you said that it can handle a lot of tension. So, when I rip out the grommet from the clew, I can tell Macgregor that "Marc said it was OK". J/K.......anyway. Hey, let me ask you this though...in one condition you could tighten it up enough to develope a slight crease along the foot, but in stronger winds at that setting it could dissapear because of the amount of pressure on the sail?
Just the opposite
Timm, I don't mean to be contrary, but the crease along the foot shouldn't disappear in strong winds, it should nearly form a shelf. That crease indicates you have enough tension on the outhaul to flatten the sail. If you didn't, the cloth that went into the crease would move up causing the sail to be baggier. The outhaul pulling on the sail cloth bias (the panels are at an angle to the boom) pulls extra sail material from above and bunches it near the boom. Cruising sails are designed this way. Racing sail tend to be less flexible. Personally, I can't afford a different sail for every wind speed. Happy sails *_/), MArk
Timm, I don't mean to be contrary, but the crease along the foot shouldn't disappear in strong winds, it should nearly form a shelf. That crease indicates you have enough tension on the outhaul to flatten the sail. If you didn't, the cloth that went into the crease would move up causing the sail to be baggier. The outhaul pulling on the sail cloth bias (the panels are at an angle to the boom) pulls extra sail material from above and bunches it near the boom. Cruising sails are designed this way. Racing sail tend to be less flexible. Personally, I can't afford a different sail for every wind speed. Happy sails *_/), MArk
Foot
So that shelf or crease is not a bad thing?..........I thought that was a sign of too much outhaul tension.........learn something everyday. Thanks Dude
So that shelf or crease is not a bad thing?..........I thought that was a sign of too much outhaul tension.........learn something everyday. Thanks Dude
Thank you all
Thank you all for commenting and visiting this forum. MArk has provided some useful info, But I would like to point out that He is not Mark Ploch of Doyle Sails. His comments on outhaul have been pretty good, but his statement that "Full length battens should never be used on cruising sails" is way off base. While not the choice for every sailor, more and more cruising sailors are going to full length battens, for the sail handling benefits. Full Length Battens do not change the shape, or induce shape into the sail, they merely follow the design shape of the sail. A full batten conversion can improve the look of an older partial batten sail that suffers from Batten poke at the inboard ends, by smoothing out the sail. They do however, help to prolong the life of the sail by dampening the damaging effect of flogging. This is important when raising, lowering, and reefing. Full battens also keep the leech pushed aft so when dropping the sail it tends to drop more evenly especially when used with lazy jacks or a Dutchman system. Always consult your sailmaker and discuss your sailing needs and budget for what best suits you.
Thank you all for commenting and visiting this forum. MArk has provided some useful info, But I would like to point out that He is not Mark Ploch of Doyle Sails. His comments on outhaul have been pretty good, but his statement that "Full length battens should never be used on cruising sails" is way off base. While not the choice for every sailor, more and more cruising sailors are going to full length battens, for the sail handling benefits. Full Length Battens do not change the shape, or induce shape into the sail, they merely follow the design shape of the sail. A full batten conversion can improve the look of an older partial batten sail that suffers from Batten poke at the inboard ends, by smoothing out the sail. They do however, help to prolong the life of the sail by dampening the damaging effect of flogging. This is important when raising, lowering, and reefing. Full battens also keep the leech pushed aft so when dropping the sail it tends to drop more evenly especially when used with lazy jacks or a Dutchman system. Always consult your sailmaker and discuss your sailing needs and budget for what best suits you.
You're welcome, Tim S.
But I can't find the quote you attribute to me. Could you possibly send a link to that post? I never say never. <-(Self conflicting statement!) Are you really a sail maker or a just a sail marketer? I don't mean to be petty, but when you say full-length battens are the solution to a slack leech (inner batten pocket ends poking to windward) you’re only looking to mask the symptom. Even after adding full battens, if you don't correct the leech problem, not only will the leech still be slack, it will vibrate like playing cards in bicycle spokes. Not very conducive to a relaxing cruise. Sure, I'm not a professional sail maker; I'm a professional engineer and amateur sail maker, cosmologist, physicist, musician, golfer and everything else. (I do have a "DO-IT-THYSELF SAILMAKER" certificate! [picture]) Happy (fusion powered) sails *_/), MArk
But I can't find the quote you attribute to me. Could you possibly send a link to that post? I never say never. <-(Self conflicting statement!) Are you really a sail maker or a just a sail marketer? I don't mean to be petty, but when you say full-length battens are the solution to a slack leech (inner batten pocket ends poking to windward) you’re only looking to mask the symptom. Even after adding full battens, if you don't correct the leech problem, not only will the leech still be slack, it will vibrate like playing cards in bicycle spokes. Not very conducive to a relaxing cruise. Sure, I'm not a professional sail maker; I'm a professional engineer and amateur sail maker, cosmologist, physicist, musician, golfer and everything else. (I do have a "DO-IT-THYSELF SAILMAKER" certificate! [picture]) Happy (fusion powered) sails *_/), MArk
Attachments
MArk, Could you explain your issues
with Full Battens. You said , on a cruising boat, they should not be in the lower part of the sail and never below the reef lines. Why is that? I have full battens on my mainsail and haven't seen a problem yet and I have (and used) 2 reefs in it. What should I be looking for? Tim, What might be the issue of Full Battens in cruising mainsails in General? I have heard that before, but I don't understand Why ? What could go wrong, other than one breaking (But I know you can get the plastic ones that almost never break). Even then if it does, you just remove it and keep sailing until you can repair it? Correct?
with Full Battens. You said , on a cruising boat, they should not be in the lower part of the sail and never below the reef lines. Why is that? I have full battens on my mainsail and haven't seen a problem yet and I have (and used) 2 reefs in it. What should I be looking for? Tim, What might be the issue of Full Battens in cruising mainsails in General? I have heard that before, but I don't understand Why ? What could go wrong, other than one breaking (But I know you can get the plastic ones that almost never break). Even then if it does, you just remove it and keep sailing until you can repair it? Correct?
From an Expert
Tom, I will quote Brian Hancock's article (an undisputed expert, check his profile). Read the entire article on the related link. "Omitting the battens throughout the reef area eliminates any chance of them hanging up while reefing, and also allows you to feed shape into the sail when you ease the outhaul. Having full-length battens down low limits your ability to adjust the sail because the stiffness of the battens ends up dictating the shape." Although I'm not a sail expert, I do know where to find them. Like I said before, I'm not opposed to full-length battens in general. They have their place in the universe. They're just not the best option for the way I sail right now. Happy (fusion powered) sails *_/), MArk
Tom, I will quote Brian Hancock's article (an undisputed expert, check his profile). Read the entire article on the related link. "Omitting the battens throughout the reef area eliminates any chance of them hanging up while reefing, and also allows you to feed shape into the sail when you ease the outhaul. Having full-length battens down low limits your ability to adjust the sail because the stiffness of the battens ends up dictating the shape." Although I'm not a sail expert, I do know where to find them. Like I said before, I'm not opposed to full-length battens in general. They have their place in the universe. They're just not the best option for the way I sail right now. Happy (fusion powered) sails *_/), MArk
Expert?
MArk, Let's not get into who knows what, this is an information forum , there is plenty of contradicting thoughts when it comes to sails, and everyone has an opinion. I stand Corrected, your Reply said "And Never Below the reefs" it is still a bit off base. Let me explain: If you Reef, it is because you need less sail area and a flatter sail. When reefed, you don't normally ease "OUTHAUL", so battens are not a problem. We design Full batten mains so that the battens are parallel to the reefs Further more, I did not say Battens would cure a sagging leech. I said Batten poke, which you seem to be unfamiliar with, occurs at the front end of the batten on older mains with or without a sagging leech. Having personally Sailed 10's of thousands of miles offshore, quite often with 1 or 2 crew, full batten mains have been on most of the boats, and in MY Humble opinion, makes handling the sail easier. And if you notice most of the single handed boats use Full length battens.
MArk, Let's not get into who knows what, this is an information forum , there is plenty of contradicting thoughts when it comes to sails, and everyone has an opinion. I stand Corrected, your Reply said "And Never Below the reefs" it is still a bit off base. Let me explain: If you Reef, it is because you need less sail area and a flatter sail. When reefed, you don't normally ease "OUTHAUL", so battens are not a problem. We design Full batten mains so that the battens are parallel to the reefs Further more, I did not say Battens would cure a sagging leech. I said Batten poke, which you seem to be unfamiliar with, occurs at the front end of the batten on older mains with or without a sagging leech. Having personally Sailed 10's of thousands of miles offshore, quite often with 1 or 2 crew, full batten mains have been on most of the boats, and in MY Humble opinion, makes handling the sail easier. And if you notice most of the single handed boats use Full length battens.
Close, Timm
Cosmetology and cosmology are both from the Greek 'cosmo' meaning universe, order and beauty. And, both are searching for a way to curb the effects of entropy. Happy (fusion powered) sails *_/), MArk
Cosmetology and cosmology are both from the Greek 'cosmo' meaning universe, order and beauty. And, both are searching for a way to curb the effects of entropy. Happy (fusion powered) sails *_/), MArk
Apologies, Tim S.
Tim S., As a dingy sailor or racer, I'm sure you have more experience than I with full batten sails. But, I do have one question: To use full battens parallel to the boom, don't the sail panels also have to be parallel to the boom? Otherwise, the battens would run across the bias (and seams). On most bigger boat sails that don't start life as fully battened, the panels run perpendicular to the leech, not the luff. How would you convert this type sail to full battens? Even if that is possible, don't you need sail track and cars rather than slides on large full batten sails? I'm just trying to better understand the technology. MArk
Tim S., As a dingy sailor or racer, I'm sure you have more experience than I with full batten sails. But, I do have one question: To use full battens parallel to the boom, don't the sail panels also have to be parallel to the boom? Otherwise, the battens would run across the bias (and seams). On most bigger boat sails that don't start life as fully battened, the panels run perpendicular to the leech, not the luff. How would you convert this type sail to full battens? Even if that is possible, don't you need sail track and cars rather than slides on large full batten sails? I'm just trying to better understand the technology. MArk
Oh, I see Brian Hancocks reasoning
He says " Having full-length battens down low limits your ability to adjust the sail because the stiffness of the battens ends up dictating the shape." That makes sense if the battens are designed way too low. If they were right over the boom and you wanted to "really" let out the outhaul on a light wind day then the battens wouldn't allow as much "belly" as you'd want down there to help "catch" some air . But I think if the batten placement was done correctly (higher up) and parallel to the reefs, then I would think the benefits would greatly outweigh any possible negative. Its all in the design.
He says " Having full-length battens down low limits your ability to adjust the sail because the stiffness of the battens ends up dictating the shape." That makes sense if the battens are designed way too low. If they were right over the boom and you wanted to "really" let out the outhaul on a light wind day then the battens wouldn't allow as much "belly" as you'd want down there to help "catch" some air . But I think if the batten placement was done correctly (higher up) and parallel to the reefs, then I would think the benefits would greatly outweigh any possible negative. Its all in the design.
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