Outhaul tension for cruising

RichH · Sep 1, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
Is it common or at least ok to use the one winch on the cabin top for many different ropes? like the halyards, main sheet, outhaul ,cunningham? The vang I have has a cam cleat built on to it. Can I run that back to the cabin top winch and then have spin locks or cam cleats for each rope?
I guess what I am trying to ask is what all can be ran to the cabin top winch through rope locks practically?

Yes, you can bring all the control lines that you actually use 'all/most the time' back to the cockpit ... each line will have its individual 'clutch' and the entire 'gang' of clutches (example: http://garhauermarine.com/catalog_process.cfm?cid=36) can be operated by a single winch. However to prevent an immense and sometimes confusing 'pile of ropes in the cockpit', its best to only bring back those lines that you use often, leaving the seldom used coiled on the mast or boom. For me its best to leave most of the 'mess' hanging on the mast than to trip over the excess in the cockpit.
My 'sport-boat' (an ILYA 'scow') has 35 control, etc. lines and most of these run to thru-deck turning blocks + cam cleats ... all the 'rope' being run under the deck/combing whenever possible); if all 'that' ran to clutches it would be a gigantic mess.
;-)

Dan Johnson · Sep 1, 2009

RichH...

great discussion points and Bay-oriented analogy. Your point on the speedo is well taken--on the raceboat we use the GPS VMG to determine if a tweak has had a positive or negative effect. The trick is to be patient enough for it to show up!

Stu Jackson · Sep 1, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
Is it common or at least ok to use the one winch on the cabin top for many different ropes? l

Hermit, you really need to get out more often!

Unless your down at the heels marina is sooo very down, what do the other boats in the marina have? What do you see on other boats in other marinas?

I'll email you pictures of my setup when i get back from the doctor's office later tomorrow morning.

Scott T-Bird · Sep 2, 2009

Look at the big picture ...

With all due respect, Rich ... you are thinking like an engineer (believe me, I know the symptoms since I am one

). You are focused on the micro picture of the outhaul adjustment when in the macro picture, Hermit isn't even focused on hoisting a genoa. So what good does it do to worry about 8% loss due to a loose foot (not likely that it would be nearly that much in his case) when the lack of a genoa on a mast head rig will probably give him a max of about 30% of his potential speed and make it near impossible to sail upwind with even a semblance of efficiency. A manager sees that as the big problem!

Here are some pictures on how to gang four control lines on each side ... I use 4 sheave organizers which are 2 pair stacked on each side. You have to configure turning blocks at the base of your mast.

RichH · Sep 2, 2009

Re: Look at the big picture ...

Scott-
Totally disagree (as an engineer, scientist, avid amateur sailmaker and quasi-aerodynamicist).

The aerodynamic relationship between a mainsail and jib/genoa is entirely dependent on the interrelationship of one another ... as a properly shaped/set/trimmed mainsail will provide the proper aero flow **TO** the genoa. This may be 'counter-intuitive' but thats aerodynamics for you.

Wings & Sails: Almost all of what you read in 'sailing books' and especially what you learned from US high school 'science classes' is totally totally wrong - and even the Wright Brothers knew this. If the mainsail isnt trimmed/set/shaped, etc. to near perfection then you will NEVER get even close to optimum flow over the headsail !!!!!! Sails are quite a bit more than 'triangular thingys' on top of a sailboat.

NC-C320 · Sep 2, 2009

Hermit Scott said:
For a question about how to configure an outhaul, there is no one I trust that doesn't have an avatar by their name.

That's makes lot's of sense doesn't it? Good advice is good advice and bad advice is bad advice, avatar or not.

Ross · Sep 2, 2009

Some years ago there was wonderful picture of a work barge in Bangladesh with a sail that appeared to have been made by sewing together all of the material found on several clothes lines on wash day. They worked well enough to move the barge when the wind blew. Sails are a labor saving invention we must guard against allowing them to become a labor intensive invention requiring constant attention.

jibes138 · Sep 3, 2009

Sails and Outhauls

Great point Ross,
I remember well lashing four canoes together, tying a tent fly to a few paddles, holding them up in our hands and sailing down the connecticut river. We did not have an outhaul on our rig, nor did we have a headsail to worry about the aerodynamic efficiency. What we had were eight engineers an inventive spirit and the desire to make our journey a little easier.
I'm all for outhauls and maximizing sail shapes, and trimming, I love to trim sails, just understand that these are not MANDATORY to have fun and traverse a body of water.

TimCup · Sep 3, 2009

Gosh, I'm surprised I can drive a car!

I don't power out of turns, like professional drivers, and , heaven forbid, I use BRAKES to slow down, instead of downshifting... I guess I'm doing it "wrong", by "real drivers" standards.

yeah, I sail wrong. Big deal. I'm having fun, and so are my crew. And guests. As a former professional athlete, I have a competitive streak a mile wide- and the admiral HATED it when I focused on perfect sail trim, and maximizing speed, instead of paying attention to her.

I admire those that are purists- sail trim exact, all the time, fairing the boat bottom for minimal drag... if that's your bag, good on ya. But I'm sick and tired of being told I'm lazy, or inept, because I don't drink the kool-aid.

cup

Beyond_the_Arc · Sep 3, 2009

TimCup -- Good for you! On our boat, I'm the 'sailor,' having grown up on the Chesapeake (sailing everything with a mast until I went to college). Now, after 37 years of family, career (actually two) and moving 13 times all over the world, we've settled down and bought a boat. You are absolute on target with your remarks about competitive streak (I have one as well) and the admiral NOT being particularly pleased with the inordinate amount of attention being spent on 'perfect trim.'

We are pleasure sailors, and that means get out of the marina, get the motor off and the sails full and drawing. As long as I keep the heel under about 10 degrees, she's fine and loves to occassionally take the helm--that's when I get to play with 'proper trim.' Other times, we didn't get a sailboat to go ANYWHERE fast, we got it to do something relaxing and social that takes us BOTH away from DC pressure cooker jobs.

BTW, I downshifted until it got too expensive to buy a car with a standard transmission, but all three of my kids can drive a standard transmission--that's a gift from my Dad--and they all love to join us occassionally on the boat. So I think we're with you--doing it that way WE want to enjoy our time & investment. And for the recollection of most of the posters on this thread, remember this (I don't have the speaker, just the quote), "It takes 30 minutes to learn to sail, then you spend 30 years learning to go faster." We all have our own path on the '30 year' road.

TiimCup, I like mine and it seems, you like yours!

Fair winds & following seas!

Beyond_the_Arc · Sep 3, 2009

Hermit Scott,

And that's why 'arguing the finer points of doctrine and dogma' are, IMHO, pointless.

Fair winds & following seas to you and your 'admiral,' as well.

Cpt. Jon · Sep 3, 2009

Wow, I read this thread when there were just a few posts and it looked like Scott was getting the help he had asked for. I didn't bother coming back until I saw an apology thread and thought I must catch up.

Obviously there are a lot of different opinions out there. Trim definitely effects performance, but it can be at a cost. I don't mess with my outhaul much, I am usually pleased with the way we are sailing the way it is currently adjusted. Perhaps I'll look at it more this weekend, perhaps not.

We sailed a lot in the past with some great cruising buddies and we would basically "set and forget", meaning we would set our course, engage our tiller pilot adjust the sheets etc until happy and let her roll. That was on a 25.5 and I would mainly adjust my sheets while sailing to account for the gusts, lulls, and shifts in the wind. I almost never touched the outhaul. Our friends (the husband) would constantly tinker with the sail trim and spend so much time trying to get it right that they would usually end up falling a little off course or something frustrating would happen... we'd watch them while sitting back lounging and they looked stressed out. Not what I am looking for when I am out there, for me it's about decompression from all the stress I already have in my life, I am not looking to add more.

Hermit, I'm not sure if you haven't, but if you haven't raised your sails (even just one) and cut the motor off to be under sail power, you haven't yet experienced the magical feeling of being powered by the wind alone with the quiet (since your diesel is off). There is nothing like it and every time we cut the diesel off, my wife and I smile at each other and have that feeling of "oh yeah, that's what it's all about!".

My advice for you, which you may do what you want with, is just to do your best to get the main on as best you can, but don't worry if the trim isn't 100% perfect. Go out on a light/medium day (if you get those). Point into the wind, raise the main, fall off the wind, kill the diesel and just enjoy the first couple of times out like that.

We've sailed our mast head rig plenty of times under main alone and ours doesn't have big problems sailing to wind... your boat is probably similar enough to ours that you may find the same thing. If you do have issues getting where you want, you can fall back on your diesel to get back upwind if you need to, at least you will have past that milestone on that boat that you have worked so hard to restore. Worry about trimming and tricking out the sails perfectly later.

For us, yes sailing is more like a religion, one that brings us close together and closer together with the great beauty of this place that many people don't get to enjoy the way sailors do.

Don't get me wrong, when there is another sailboat around and I'm in the mood, I might tinker a little here or there to make sure I'm a little better trimmed... I'm sure 'Pocahontas' would let this forum know I'm always in the mood for a little impromptu racing when another boat is around, if I didn't mention it...

tommays · Sep 3, 2009

I have to say after spending way to much time racing your sure making this complex when in reality somebody pulls on a string untill they like the way it looks and IF they go wild put a sticky ruler on the boom and pull the string to a number

Cpt. Jon · Sep 3, 2009

tommays said:
your sure making this complex when in reality somebody pulls on a string untill they like the way it looks

Problem is that some people are never pleased with "the way it looks" or keep thinking it's just not right, or not fast as it should be.... so they keep tinkering and get frustrated. That's what I meant about watching our friend doing this... maybe it was more fun for him or he didn't want to sit still... me, I don't have a problem sitting still out there, I finally get to relax.

Scott T-Bird · Sep 3, 2009

I'll keep arguing, Rich!

Although don't you think we can agree that before a properly trimmed main sail can impact the genny, Hermit must first actually raise a genny to make that happen? In the big picture, Hermit absolutely needs to have a genny hoisted for any of your gobbledegook to make any difference at all. Besides, you are misleading Hermit on the importance of the main sail on a mast head rig, which he has. For a fractional rig, I will agree that you trim the main sail first because it provides the power and it must be trimmed correctly ... then you trim the head sail.

The opposite is true of a mast head rigged boat as most sailors will acknowledge. You trim the head sail first because in order of importance and influence, the head sail needs to be correctly trimmed and is the driving power to the boat. In fact, when beating, it is often impossible to trim the main sail to maximum efficiency because of the impact of the head sail. You often see the leading edge (Hermit, that's the luff) slightly back winded by the genny. It's hogwash to suggest that an improperly trimmed outfall has as much influence on the performance of a mast head rigged sail boat as you suggest (did you say 8%? - no way for just one sail shaping tool for the main). Besides, you are suggesting that it is possible to just tweak one tool and you can watch the speed increase. That is also a ridiculous notion in many cases where wind shifts and wind velocity are simply too variable to maintain any kind of controlled environment for such an experiment. Of course your experience on open water certainly gives you steadier breezes, whereas my environment has ever changing wind shifts to 45 d or more and never a steady breeze. Therefore, in my case, it is impossible to establish perfect trim, and a constant direction for any more than a 3 second period, so I do take some offense when it is suggested that I am lazy for not achieving nirvana in sail trim. But I do get over things easily and I can take virtually anything in a sailing forum with the grain of salt, not that I don't enjoy a good argument!

I'm sorry to keep harping on this Hermit, but without a genoa, your concern over main sail shape is just plain fruitless. But I agree that you should make your outhaul functional and use it. You should focus on getting something like a Tuff Luff from Schaefer so that you can raise your head sails. I would suggest that rather than sewing hanks to your luff tape. The kits are about $600 to $700 or the extrusion would be about $400 for your boat depending upon your head stay diameter. I was reading up on suggested improvements to the C 30 and I was surprised to see that a suggested upgrade is to increase the diameter from the stock, which in those days was considered to be a little too 'stretchy' due to a light diameter. It didn't say what the 'stock' size was back in 1979, and I didn't look any further. Back to the Tuff Luff ... those prices were from Schaefer and are notably high. I suspect that you would find a way to do much better, but the idea is the same. Get a foil for the head stay so you can raise the head sails. You really won't have any fun sailing that boat without one. It's just plain silly to waste all that concern over a properly trimmed main sail when you don't have a genoa. You won't even be getting 50% of your potential speed without one. In a light breeze, you will be virtually drifting around ... I know, I already tried it this year ... and that's another story that nobody probably has any patience for!

As for a turning block at the base of the mast there are essentially 3 options. Attach turning blocks directly to the base of the mast such as the ones that I have in the photos, attach a collar at the base of the mast that can accept turning blocks, or install standing blocks (which can be found in Defender or West Marine) to the coach roof. The first two options can be investigated on the Rig Rite web site and these components are pricey. I would guess that the third option could be done less expensively but most people don't like drilling holes in their roof. I'm wondering if you are suggesting your option at $9.95 as a joke or maybe you are just fanatical about doing things on the cheap. I really can't fault you but I can't relate, either, since I have virtually a 50-year habit of being comfortable with over-spending for just about anything nautical, and being happy with the products that are intended to serve the purpose I need.

Outhaul tension for cruising

.

.

.

.

.

Attachments

.

.

NC-C320

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.