outboard weight for 26X ?

[JonBill]

I'm Pro-Choice on M and X outboard size

The main point is to remain open minded and to encourage people to make there own decisions on what is right for them based on what they want out of their M and X boating experience. And to know that there are viable options, alternative experiences and valid opinions out there other than the "you absolutely got to have a 50hp or else" mentality.And to encourage people not to be browbeaten into making a mistake by those who post insisting on everyone conforming to their beliefs on the boating experience.So I encourage you-all that are contemplating this decision on what size outboard is right for you to make up your own mind on what is right for you. I support being pro-choice on outboard motor size for the M or X and support everyone making up their own minds on what is right for them.Sorry to disappoint you but no potbelly here and since "Yo" brought up my wife; she insists that I don't need Viagra. So there's no need to go into further detail. I guess the person who suggested otherwise may have been looking at themselves in the mirror when they made those accusations.On the other matter of the "Lounge" topics and the posting of the link to my archives for same, thanks for the publicity, I appreciate that, but may I suggest that what happens in the "Lounge", stays in the "Lounge". At least I thought that was the rule.Kind Regards,JonBill

 

[Justin_NSA]

so pupluv

How are these for opinions? 325# seems like a helluva lot of weight to me but I sail an S-model, if you can't pick the motor up with one hand it's too big.

 

[Capt. Kermie]

Pro-Choice - Absolutely!

Totally agree with JonBill on this one, to each his own and a 315# 90HP on the transom of the new M series is the optimum configuration.To listen to the autocratic rantings of a near dictator like philosophy insisting on conformity to their small engine belief does not encourage freedom of choice.If I could go back I would unconditionally choose the 90hp engine because real world application has taught me that my 50hp just does not cut it, I could do better.As for the accusation of "Closet Power-Boater" well, perhaps I should bring it up at next confession and see if the Father & Church will forgive me despite the fact that I am not ashamed of it. If I had the ressources I would own both a powerboat and a sailboat but since recources are limited I chose the powersailor to experience both in one.As for SaiNet I am guilty as charged, I frequent that site and a few others not mentioned since different knowledge/opinions can be obtained from many different sites. I still maintain from personal experience that it is anti-Magregor but as long as I refrain from mentioning the Mac I do not get chastized for it.I have asked YY before and will ask again:DO YOU or DO YOU NOT still own a blue hull MacGregor 26m???If you do then you are either a hypocrite, talking out both sides of your mouth, a turncoat or traitor or all the above. If you still have your Mac perhaps you should divest yourself of it since you indicate so clearly in your posts the boats inadequecies and your personal dissatisfaction with it. Your rantings so far are doing more dis-service to your credibility than anything else. You, Yours Wrote: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~"Knowing many purchase a powersailor to experience a sailing adventure, and we understand the “Hybrid” or “Dual-Purpose” motor~sailor experience, attempts to introduce borderline motorboat enthusiasts to sailing. " ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~This is a good thing, the more motor boat enthusiast we can introduce to sailing via the Hybrid the better. It will open up a whole new world for them witout their having to give up their old one.The Mac is advertised to go 24 MPH and so it should, it is not about ego but more about versatility and with a 90 hp one can tow water toys easier and enjoy more family fun. I have already listed some of the virtues of more HP so I won't repeat them but suffice to say the positives of more HP far outweigh any imagined or fabricated negatives. MrBill wrote:"So, help me understand when the extra motor can be used to get up on a plane and run for home? " ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~MrBill,You do not really have to run for home at all, you can stay put if you like. The ability to get up on plane is simply a characteristic of the powerboat side of a hybrid. It is more about family fun, towing toys or simply getting about in a dead calm. Forget about evading storm conditions those can be detected with radar to take action for if you are so equipped or keeping an ear to weather reports. The ability to outrun a storm is a rather moot point, the main point is versatility and fun.

 

[Justin_NSA]

??

I have no vested interest in the situation and maybe it's just the way it came out, but this doesn't sound very "pro-choice" either. You're basically saying 90HP is the only way to go. " Totally agree with JonBill on this one, to each his own and a 315# 90HP on the transom of the new M series is the optimum configuration bar none, end of story."From the beginning my advice has been; buy it, try it, and if it doesn't work out sell it.

 

[Capt. Kermie]

Perceptions?

That is just how it came out Justin, but on second look perhaps I should delete the "bar none end of story words" to soften it a bit. 315# 90 hp is not the only way to go, it is just an optimum configuation IMHO.

 

[Phil Herring]

Guidelines reminder

I've deleted a few replies from this thread because they contain personal attacks on other participants. Please limit the discussion to boat chatacteristics and lay off each other. Thanks!Phil

 

[b.t.13730]

Image???

YY Wrote..."21.Installing an engine twice over the factory warranted 50 hp, feeds the MacGregor hybrid sailboat ‘Drag~Queen Speedboat’ image of many sailing enthusiasts."now i get it YY...this is all about your image.that is, by me running my 90hp Tohatsu TLDI, it's a negative reflection on YY when he's in his blue hull M. he's not perceived by others as a "real" sailor.therapy will help this personality flaw.

 

[Justin_NSA]

hey guys

I think we've given pupluv enough material to make a decision. Remember the rules, let's stop the pissing contest.

 

[Capt. Kermie]

IT IS SKINNY!!

I have said it more than once in the past on other boards as well, it is a skinny boat for a large person like me. I have an awkward time moving forward to the V-berth and won't even attempt the head unles it is a dire emergency. I have allways kept my eye open for a beamier powersailer for this very reason. Unfortunately with the USA being the biggest market and some of the more populous state jurisdictions maintaining a 8' width restriction manufacturers are forced to conform to specs that comply with all jurisdictions. I personally do not understand why most US states have 8'6" legal widths while a few others still maintain an imperium like archaic 8' max. (Canada is 8'6" country wide)I would think that by now they would have a country wide uniform limit that all can agree upon. The trailerable market is governed by antiquated legalities. That said if I wish to continue with a trailerable powersailer I must also deal with the corresponding skinny beam much to my dis-like.Funny thing is, when I attend boat shows I also check out trailerable powerboats and notice most are maxed out to the 8'6" beam that is prevalent in most jurisdictions, but then again the powerboat market share dwarfs the sailboat market so they can afford to do this.As for the bigger HP, I dont care if you list another 21 points over the 21 you listed YY, if and when I get the resources I will get enough extra HP to acheive the advertised 24 MPH and get the boat on plane. BTW there is no conformity plate that I can find on my '03 MacGregor 26M that states maximum HP regulations, so much for insurance legalities.I only use the transom entry on the hard, I have a very nice boarding ladder on the side for easy entry-exit while slipped which is most of the time for me.I have yet to hand-pull start my engine to this day.My warranty expired after the first year.My 50 HP Honda really burns gas while screaming its' guts out at WOT trying to get out of the hole and never quite making it. The best I have ever had was 18 MPH at the beginning of the season with a fresh waxed hull, very little gear & supplies and just myself as crew/skipper and half a tank of fuel, overall minimum weight (with the exception of my own overweight frame).The heavy flop over engine straining the steering can be quickily eliminated with the dis-connect option which takes only a few seconds.It would only require myself and two crew my size to void the floatation limits.I would be surprised if a larger engine made more noise than my Honda screaming at 18 MPH.The use of common sense would eliminate pounding over rough chop, swells and wake. Speed would be used judiciously, I would only use it in calm waters, and if there was a chop out there, it would be accompanied with wind, in which case my engine would be shut off and sails raised.Larger engines with more torque do indeed swing a larger prop which is what one needs to get these big boats moving more efficiently. I use a four blade prop to compensate and increase water surface contact. Of course this counters top speed but also improves mid-range operation. It is likely I would use 4 blades on a larger engine as well to increase water surface contact. It is not about flying and pounding over the surf but more about getting on plane in light air or dead calm conditions where there is minimum turbulence. I would also feel more at ease in those rip tides that we encounter up here on a regular basis and I do not pound into those, I take them slower but would be more comfortable if I could feel the engine torque easily overpowering the rip tide current.I don't think those who make performance claims are the biggest liars, they are simply reporting their results.BWY installs larger engines and warrantys their set-up.All manufacturers lie about engine weights? I agree, they even lie about the weight of the smaller ones, it is all I can do to muscle my 5hp honda onto the dinghy, it is a heavy sucker.I just recently had new uniflex steering control cables installed which should easily handle heavier engines. I previously had the old system because the latest was unavailable when I first bought the boat. That a bigger heavier engine requires upgraded steering system is a "foregone conclusion".Nobody ever ever called my boat a "Drag Queen" I usually get compliments, in fact I cannot recall any negative comments from others about my boat. I am the only one who ever criticised it - "skinny beam again"The Factory is now recommending the Suzuki 50/60 HP powerhead.Most of YY's 21 points are speculation and conjecture and ring hollow.PS - Glad to hear you still have your blue M YY it is still the best bang for the buck bar none. Nice sparring with you, you make some good points but most are dubious at best.Here is a link to see how a responsible skipper handles the big HP and how the 26M performs with it on smooth water. Seeing is believeing.

 

[b.t.13730]

max HP and warranty

Capt. Kermie said..."BTW there is no conformity plate that I can find on my '03 MacGregor 26M that states maximum HP regulations, so much for insurance legalities."The Mac 26 has a "manufacturer's recommendation" of outboard horsepower, not a rating. If the legally prescribed "rating formula" was applied to the dimensions of a Mac 26 hull, that horsepower limit would exceed Macgregor's recommendation (50 hp) by about 200 more hp. Note that many of the 18-footer hulls that ARE regulated, carry ratings of 200+ hp. USCG Overview wrote: The rating of maximum power capacity became a matter of U.S. Federal Regulations in the mid-1970's following the adoption of the U.S. Boating Safety Act of 1971. This dictated that all outboard boats of less than 20 feet in length must carry a capacity plate stating the maximum number of passengers, maximum number of pounds for passengers and gear, and the maximum horsepower of the outboard that should be installed. The regulation did not make it illegal for the operator to exceed the rated values, only that they were required to be stated on the boat's capacity plate. Exceeding the numbers was a matter of personal liability in case of an accident, and in some states, for additional violations, in the event on an on-water arrest (for other violations) by marina patrol.in otherwords, Mac X or M's aren't horsepower rated because they're not under 20 feet. only horsepower recommended by manufacturer.Capt. Kermie also said..."My warranty expired after the first year."you are so correct. and for someone like me who purchased my X within the first year but second hand...I never had "no stinkin' warranty" because Macgregor only warrants to the "original owner". (silly limitation) in otherwords, Macgregor basically wipes their hands of warranting just about everything. i've talked to dozens of Mac X/M owners and have yet to find one who has exercised their warranty (and not because there was not a flaw or two...)and then there's the image issue...

 

[JonBill]

You Yours, this is an honest attempt at a dialogue

I read with interest the section of your post where you quoted Todd from BWY. Todd has everyone's respect for obvious reasons. I pasted in here what you attributed to him and it reads as follows:"As a point of note we even experimented with the TLDI 90 (we experiment with lots of things on The Pearl) as it was an easy thing to do, there is no difference between a TLDI 70 and a TLDI 90 except for the programming in the ECM and a throttle stop. Unfortunately we found that we gained nearly no speed configured as a 90 (though it did match the Suzuki 70) but it sure used fuel like a 90! The lack of performance increase is attributable to the fact that when configured as a 90, the TLDI motor produces the same torque as a 70, and torque moves these boats. We see about 22.5 mph fully loaded with the Suzuki, that's with bottom paint (coperpoxy) and the drag of the keel bulb. Our fully equipped but modestly loaded demo boat sees about 24-25." The only issue I have with this statement is it is contrary to what I was told by a Tohatsu USA factory rep. He told me never to buy a detuned engine block model. In this case that advice would apply to their 70HP motor because it is a detuned 90 hp motor (same size engine block) and he went on to say that as such it was a marketing ploy to sell to that size motor buyer. In other words if someone wants a 70 sell them a detuned 90 and you don't have to retool the factory to make that size of motor. Same as the 40hp model which is a detuned 50hp Tohatsu.That being the case I took his advice and got the 90hp. Why not when it's the same weight as the 70hp and the same motor and it isn't detuned. That being the case it is interesting that Todd's experience was just the opposite. That he got practically the same performance (speed) out of the 70 as he got out of the 90. I will admit at WOT the 90 does drink a lot of gas but at the 4000rpm range it is miserly on consumption and gets great speed at that reduced rpm.I definitely do not doubt Todd's word. Many a good invention happened by accident and Tohatsu may have over looked something they did right by accident when detuning the 90 and making it a 70. And maybe for that reason the 70 Tohatsu is a better fit for the M. I don't know that but am just throwing it out there as a possibility based on what you quoted Todd as saying, and I do plan to ask Todd about that the next time I have opportunity to talk to him. I need to talk to him anyway when he gets back from vacation because I got a faulty mast rotating bearing sold to me. It totally disintegrated the outside washers in 3 months time. They were definitely not SS material and I know he will check with his supplier to get that straightened out. But that's a side issue. For curiosity sake I hope to talk to him when he has time to ask him about his experience with the 70 vs. the 90 Tohatsu.BTW no hard feelings and I didn't take offense at your previous post that got deleted. The Bible says not to be easily offended so I try hard not to take offense. I'm not always successful at that but I try. As a gentlemanly gesture I voluntarily deleted my response to that post.Keep it coming and keep us off balance.Kind Regards,JonBill

 

[Capt. Kermie]

Check the Source

JonBillThe quote from Todd of BWY was taken from the other Mac site you visit "Macgregorsailors.com". If you do a search of all posts by Todd of BWY (there are not that many)at that site you will easily find them and read for yourself the entire contents of his posts including any portions that were not included for quote content here. YY has a habit of only quoting what supports his arguments and does not include that which would not support his arguments. Something all good reporters/politicians do as part of their job.

 

[JonBill]

Plugged Air Injectors Could Be the Problem

For those with larger 70 to 90 hp Nissan/Tohatsu or Evinrude Etecs or any advanced injection engines like these. If you're only getting 15-19mph with your M or X with the larger engines then you may have a clogged air injector for one of your cylinders that won't show up on the computer analysis. I had just such a problem and had to take the engine to 4 Nissan/Tohatsu mechanics before I found a guy that knew what was wrong with the engine. Seems for awhile it was only running on 2 of the 3 cylinders and still ran smooth and quiet and pushed the M boat 17-18mph.That is quite a feat if you think about it while running on 2 of the 3 cylinders and good to know in an emergency. However I knew the motor during that period was underpowered but didn't know why. But I finally found out why when I was fortunate to take the engine to the "right" mechanic. Took it to the guy in Rock Port who by that experiment proved to be the best Nissan/Tohatsu mechanic in the whole of South Texas. So if you’re having this type of under powered problem with a larger injection type engine as some have had as pointed out by YY then have your mechanic check the air injectors.Kind Regards,JonBill

 

[You Yours]

Re: Valuable Support Information from JonBill

'JonBill'Valuable support information, some diagnosis on the Link reading a reference.

 

[JonBill]

90HP Tohatsu Cost $6080 & helm seat can close fine

I have a 90hp Tohatsu and it fits with plenty of extra room on the transom and the helm seat on my M boat can close just fine and I paid only $6,080 for my outboard brand new in late 2003 and it's a 2004 model year motor. I paid another $500 set up or installation fee.So don't believe anything you read below about $10,000 and not being able to close the helm seat. Just shop around and get a good deal like I did.Kind Regards,JonBill

 

[JonBill]

2008 price 90hp under $6,900 & 70hp under $6,200

Ok so here's the facts for a 2008 model Tohatsu 70hp and a 90hp that you can buy at todays prices under $6,200 for the 70 and under $6,900 for the 90 and that's no mumbojumbo and they fit under the helm seat. I know I've got the 90 installed on my M. And all outboards need to sit at about 15degrees to the stern on a motor boat hence the need for a standard wedge is all on the Mac stern and that's a $25 item which makes up the difference to get to the best 15 degree angle. Mac stern is built about half that angle. In fact if you're not installing the wedge to get to 15degrees then that could be some of your performance issues if you have any regardless of the size of motor 50 or 90hp. TLDI/70HP - Long Shaft (Elect Start/Remote Ctl/Trim & Tilt/Oil Inject) Product #: MD70BEPTOL 2008 Model Online Price: $6,199.99   TLDI/90HP - Long Shaft (Elect Start/Remote Ctl/Trim & Tilt/Oil Inject) Product #: MD90BEPTOL 2008 Model Online Price: $6,899.99

 

[sardo]

Not the need for speed

I have an M and had a 50hp Etech installed. Good nuff for my needs. I don't pull kids around on a tube (mine are grown up and as big as horses anyway). And I don't want a motorboat else I'da bought one instead. But here's what I bought:I bought a fairweather 'light duty light air' sailboat that is:1. Low maintenance2. Inexpensive (more bang for the buck)3. Easily trailored and lightweight enough for most SUVs and pickups to haul.4. Sails well in protected waters5. Has headroom (I am over 70 and don't bend as well as I used to).6. Has an aluminum trailor with disc brakes that is more than needed for the job7. Has ample enough power to handle cuts and swift tidal currents.8. Can sail through shallows and can be beached if needed.9. Boat can move-out of a heavy weather situation and to protective waters quicker than any other sailboat I can think of right now.And lastly Number 10. The most important one for me:10. Contrary to the need for speed, I find having the power to motor cruise with all boards down, (sails dowsed) at 4-5 mph. And I like doing that without having a small (9.9HP Yachtwin Evinrude)screeming at the top of it's 2 cylinder lungs!Remember; some folks will buy bigger only for the reason of running smaller more comfortably.Some people will buy a bigger air conditioner units only because it does not have to cycle as long as a smaler unit.Sometimes the old adage that having the right tool for the job is what it takes to get the job done. If what you buy to handle that job is just barely adequate, chances are it will break or wear out on you before you know it.If you feel you need a 90HP for whatever it is you have in mind. Its your boat ... go for it.

 

[Capt. Kermie]

70+

Sardo Wrote:"5. Has headroom (I am over 70 and don't bend as well as I used to)."So how do you make out handling the Mac at 70+ years, At 54 I am really hoping to still be sailing when I reach you age. Seems like a lot of effort now though so my perception of 70 has me believing I may have to give it up, sure hope not.I also tow with an SUV quite easily (Extended 129" wheelbase '04 Trailblazer w/inline 6)and it does quite well.

 

[sardo]

It ain't for sissies'

getting old that is ...You will manage at 70+ if you keep yourself moving between now til then. Never give into the aches and pains. Don't give in to the crap others your own age might tell you, especially some crack-pot doctors. Condition yourself mentally. That is, starting now (at your tender age), that you can still do anything ... especially sailing IF given the time. Key secret is time. You see a wise man once said (Sir Isaac Newton) that work was independant of time. Always remember that. Believe it or not, chores are made up of work and work takes a certain amount of energy to complete. No less no more. Which means as an example;It takes x amount of energy to move a table and four chairs to a spot 50 feet away. Accomplishing this chore has nothing to do with time. Whether you take 5 minutes or 5 hours to conmplete this chore, the energy required remains the same.The ability to rigg and sail a yacht takes a certain amount of energy to accomplish no matter what your age, but thank goodness life is good to us and allows us the grace of using time to our advantage.Also looking for different ways of doing things also helps.I chose a MAC for all the obvious reasons ... but the key here to remember is it takes time to rigg and splash. I peck away at the chore at my pace. If your expectations of such accomplishments are dependant on time, then life will pass you by by the time you hit my age and sailing may not be. Oh and yeah that is the reason old men like me get up so dad-blasted early. I need the head-start so that whipper-snappers like you don't get on and hog the ramp before me!

 

[Retcoastie]

Power

YY quotes Pegasus on his return in bad weather, "had a split second when the bow lined up with the narrow entrance, hit the throttle, I think I might have closed my eyes at this point…"I wonder what the out come would have been had Pegasus hit his 9.9 hp vs that 75hp Merc.The episode talks more about sea state and handling than horsepower. Later in that same post Beene talks about how he enjoyed his M with the 75 Merc and the fun they had. He water skied behind her and was very impressed the rig would pull a 200lb+ skier well enought to have fun.YY, me thinks you are like lots of preachers. You take a few words out of context and try to make a totally different point, very misleading.