Outboard advice

Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Is this your speculation or is there a link? It’s interesting but I just don’t think it’s correct (I don’t have a link either). The idea that the prop might be cavitating could be somewhat plausible if the hp delivered were on the order of 10X but we are only talking about a 5 to 10 hp outboard here.

I got sold on what you are saying at one time from internet posts so have tried both high thrust and conventional swept back props and just don’t think its true at all that the swept back conventional blade prop cavitate. When props cavitate, you can feel it in a loss of power. I have a 9.8 hp with a conventional swept back blade prop and have slowly increased the throttle to see if some sort of cavatation can be felt - I’m fairly sure it just doesn’t happen.

I have also measured peak speed with both types of props on the same outboard / boat over a month period. The high thrust prop got the top speed of the boat about 4% higher. I.e., both props took the boat to theoretical hull speed. I think the high thrust prop got the boat up to slightly higher speed just because it allowed the outboard to turn at a higher rpm where it developed a little more hp. The high thrust prop however resulted in a lot more noise and vibration also because of the higher rpm. I took it off the outboard and went back to the conventional prop.

Any measured data saying the high thrust prop does something better on the displacement hull in forward and on these small hp outboards?

High thrust props are clearly better in reverse.
I'll go along with some of this... Here are some notes.

Once you get a displacement hull to hull speed, increases in power will provide diminishing returns as far as speed, but that energy will transfer into higher amplitude bow and stern waves. The waterline length holds the wave at a fixed wavelength, which can't go any faster through the water. Inputting more power thus causes increase of amplitude of bow and stern wave. In large ships, this can lead to unsupported areas amidships, and possible hull damage (this info from Chapmans.)

You are probably right, that the small outboard prop probably won't cavitate. However, I will stand behind my assertion that a high thrust prop of larger diameter, higher surface area blades, and lower pitch will provide benefits to a displacement hull. I will also agree that if a 5 or 6 hp motor will get a 21 foot displacement hull to hull speed at less than WOT, a 9.9hp won't help you much. If your motor can't get you to hull speed at WOT when you are bucking a strong wind, then in that case a higher HP motor probably can, since it may be spec'd with a different pitch prop (but, in these small sizes, probably not a bigger diameter prop.) Less pitch will allow RPM to build more quickly and provide more pushing power, but less high end speed.

I disagree that more horsepower will help bucking a current, because we will be talking about hull speed through the water. If your boat has a max hull speed of 5 knots, it will be awfully hard to buck a current of 5 knots. The energy of the current and the outboard will still be trying to move the boat through the water at 5 knots (even if speed over land was 0,) creating the bow and stern wavelength dependent on the waterline length. Increasing power to marginally increase speed over land will also increase wave amplitude while not materially increasing wave speed. Therefore, I feel it's easier for more HP to overcome windage than current.

I will also agree that a larger diameter prop can make for more vibration. I can feel a thum-thum-thum vibration with a high thrust prop that was not there with the speed prop. I can't say this is caused by the blade tips on the larger diameter high thrust being closer to the anti-ventilation plate, or the shape of the elephant ear blades, or what... My guess is that a blade tip vortex is now close enough to vibrate against the anti-ventilation plate...

Also, I think the typical spec prop will have increased blade rake. This has the effect of lifting the bow, which I don't feel is desirable in a displacement hull. The Evinrude doc referenced blow states this is desirable in a smaller planing hull to lift the bow and reduce drag from wetted surface area. My high thrust prop definitely has less rake.

There is a lot of info on pitch, rake, etc. in this Evinrude prop document. http://www.evinrude.com/Content/Pdf/en-US/propeller_selection_guide_767064.pdf#zoom=100 (I'm using this Evinrude doc because I had looked them up regarding previous posts discussing the Bombardier purchase of OMC, and the killing off of the Johnson brand in 2007.)

I still stand by my assertion that most smaller outboards are spec'd and intended for planing hull boats, like lightweight aluminum fishing boats. Our displacement sailboats will benefit from lower pitch, larger diameter, bigger blade area, less rake, and higher RPMs into optimal operating ranges. (Optimal operating ranges can see benefits in cleaner burning spark plugs with less fouling.)

One thing I have learned, regardless of prop pitch, is that many novice helmsmen find the boat moves too fast at idle, and they come in to the dock too hot. There is an easy way to control this with motors that have transmissions: shifting into neutral, and forward for bursts of power, will keep speeds at manageable levels. I've taught several people this technique, as my Grandfather taught me, and they find it makes docking so much easier than coming in mach 5 with their hair on fire... :eek: or at least too fast at idle :D
 
Mar 1, 2012
2,182
1961 Rhodes Meridian 25 Texas coast
Brian - you said

"I disagree that more horsepower will help bucking a current, because we will be talking about hull speed through the water. If your boat has a max hull speed of 5 knots, it will be awfully hard to buck a current of 5 knots. The energy of the current and the outboard will still be trying to move the boat through the water at 5 knots (even if speed over land was 0,) creating the bow and stern wavelength dependent on the waterline length. Increasing power to marginally increase speed over land will also increase wave amplitude while not materially increasing wave speed. Therefore, I feel it's easier for more HP to overcome windage than current."

I've been trying to explain that to folks for years, and I still get the old " you just need a bigger engine"

Sigh

Also-

"One thing I have learned, regardless of prop pitch, is that many novice helmsmen find the boat moves too fast at idle, and they come in to the dock too hot. There is an easy way to control this with motors that have transmissions: shifting into neutral, and forward for bursts of power, will keep speeds at manageable levels. I've taught several people this technique, as my Grandfather taught me, and they find it makes docking so much easier than coming in mach 5 with their hair on fire... :eek: or at least too fast at idle :D "

Back in the 50's, when I first started messing around in boats I had an OLD man (he was probably younger than I am now :D) tell me-

"Son, come into as dock as if you didn't HAVE reverse. Then when you need it MAYBE it'll work for you"

Been using that ever since, to very good affect. Learn how far your boat will fore reach in neutral (away from the docks) and use that technique.
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
TSBB, guess what? My Grandfather taught me the exact same thing: dock as if you don't have reverse!

These old men sure can teach you a thing or two!
 
Aug 12, 2014
214
Universal Marine Montego 25 San Pedro, CA
Not to thread-jack, but allow me to hijack this thread for a moment ... :hijacked:

I always hear this kind of "stay away from ethanol blend gasoline for your outboard" advice. I regard this as impractical, like saying, "be sure to never exceed the speed limit". Is it possible? Perhaps. Is it likely? Not around Los Angeles!

I was taught (recently) that there is no substitute for running the gas out of the engine, because it is nearly impossible - at least in Southern California - to avoid the ethanol. Although what someone said here about how you are potentially leaving a small, easily-evaporated pool behind in the float bowl when you do that makes sense to me. No problems for me so far, keeping my fingers crossed (and using SeaFoam once in a while).

Now perhaps this website doesn't list 100% of ethanol-free filling stations for my state, but it shows only 19 sites where you can get it:

http://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=CA

California has over 800 miles of coastline. I recognize three coastal SoCal cities in that list of 19 "pure gas" stations ... and none of those are in a marina!

Anyway I am not trying to stir the pot, I'm just sayin' that it is becoming increasingly difficult to find "pure" gasoline ... at least in California.

[It's not only outboards, of course, that are affected. I also ride motorcycles and a friend of mine has an Aprilia Tuono that came with a gas tank, or parts of it, that was made of a certain type of plastic that did not "play well" with the ethanol in our CA blends. His tank warped as a result and began leaking fuel! He had to fight with the manufacturer to get a suitable replacement. What a mess ...]
 
May 24, 2004
7,213
CC 30 South Florida
I really do not know your boat but if you are set on getting a 9.9 HP engine get a two stroke. The difference in weight is considerable.
 
Jun 8, 2004
10,536
-na -NA Anywhere USA
Slogfish;

I believe you are in North Carolina but never advised if I am correct. I have been reading the posts and some are good and some not so good. For a 21 foot, you will be over powered with a 9.9 hp and you are simply would be wasting time considering that size for a 21 footer. The largest I would tell you is an 8 hp if you want an electric start. The Key to fuel, use straight gas if available but if not, add the additive to help combat ethanol and let the fuel run out of the carburetor when finished using the engine.

As a former and the largest small sailboat dealer in the country having sold nearly all brands, I would advise you a 5 or 6 hp engine for your 21 footer at Belews Creek and the North Carolina coast.

If you go with the 8 hp, make sure the current outboard motor bracket will carry the weight. EPA rules which became effective in 2006 basically outlawed the manufacture of the old two stroke engines which four stroke became the norm. I am retired and do not know if there are any new two stroke engines allowed for manufacture. If you insist on buying an older two stroke engine, I would suggest you bite the bullet and take it to a service center and let them inspect before buying.

Like I tell anyone, I speak from experience and knowledge.
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,550
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
fyi, I’m also with you guys regarding current..

The wave making that dramatically increases displacement hull drag as you get near hull speed (I believe) works the same regardless if the body of water you are in is stationary or moving. A slightly larger outboard or a high thrust prop are going to matter very little with regards to current. Hull speed is hull speed in stationary water or in current.

In my case where I did measure my peak speeds with a swept back "high speed" prop and a high thrust prop, I got to 7.1 mph with the high speed prop and about 7.4 mph with the high thrust prop (about 4% higher speed likely because the outboard was running at a higher rpm where it developed higher hp).

If I was motoring against a 7.2 mph current, with the high speed prop, my speed would be a negative 0.1 mph and with the high thrust prop, my speed would be a positive 0.2 mph.

If you get in a situation where this matters... you made a really bad decision about when you decided to go out. Your better solution is to figure out when the current will be a lot safer.
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,330
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
All this talk about hull speed...the boat we are talking about has a fairly flat bottom and is pretty light weight, and not much ballast. It is likely it will plane, so hull speed is not be as relevant as people are claiming. While one may not "need" a lot of power, more power will make the boat go faster.
 

mm2347

.
Oct 21, 2008
243
oday 222 niagara
Wouldn't a two or four stroke outboard have the same "thrust" or "push" on the motor bracket w/ the same force if the RPM and the prop are the same?
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
Marke14, I see your point about www.pure-gas.org.

Just remember that this is a database of user reported locations that sell ethanol free. It may not specifically note marinas that may carry ethanol free, and probably wouldn't if the car centric user base never visits a marina. If you find a marina that sells ethanol free, you can report it to the site here: http://www.pure-gas.org/add
 
Nov 9, 2012
2,500
Oday 192 Lake Nockamixon
I've been looking for someone to explain this to me as well. Without any empirical data to go on, my suspicion is that a 2 stroke engine mount that carried a max 10 hp motor might run into problems with a 10 hp 4 stroke, because it would be at the design limit, and the 4 stroke would be heavier.

That being said, I keep an eye on my aluminum 2 stroke Garelick, but so far, it's perfectly fine with my 5 hp 4 stroke. Garelick's site says the HP rating for the design of my bracket is: Over 7 1/2 to 20 Motor Weight Not to Exceed: 115 lbs. Weeeeelllll, my 5 hp isn't over 7/12, and it's approximately 60 pounds, so I figure I'm well within design specs.

I dunno, could there be more torque on a 4 stroke motor that could twist off a mount? Maybe at maximums of weight or HP, but I just don't see how for something 1/2 or less of the "max" listed.

Someone who knows, please feel free to educate me on this! :D

Wouldn't a two or four stroke outboard have the same "thrust" or "push" on the motor bracket w/ the same force if the RPM and the prop are the same?
 
Jan 22, 2008
14
Hunter 410 Grand Rivers, Kentucky
ditto on the propane. I have a 5hp Lehr for my 12ft inflatable and swear by it.
 

sdstef

.
Jan 31, 2013
140
Hunter 28 Branched Oak Lake
My first boat back in the early 80's was a Venture 21. I sailed it from Dana point Ca, to Avalon,Ca many times using an old 2 stroke Evinrude yachtwinn 4 hp. No problem even in 8 ft swells. I have an Oday 25 w/ a new 8 hp electric start Mercury that I never need more than 1/2 throttle to move 5k lbs at hull speed against 20mph winds. I would think a 6 hp Mercury 4 stroke long shaft would make you very happy. And they are pretty reasonable.
 
Mar 7, 2013
30
Sirius 21 Belews Lake
I've learned so much from this thread, thanks for so much information. I know the weight factor is really my main limitation on selecting the right motor. Id definitely rather be on the higher end just to be able to deal with any unexpected currents or wind. I've passed on several opportunities to get a good looking 9.9hp. But the used 6-8hp market is limited. My wife is really cheering on the electric start option as she has difficulty pulling a starting rope. So I guess 8hp looks like the minimum size outboard with electric start. Im still looking. Heres a local listing that Im trying to talk myself out of,
http://winstonsalem.craigslist.org/boa/4904553720.html
but it is 2-stroke and still weighs about 80lb. Does this still look like its still too heavy for my Sirius 21? And has anybody had any experience with Tracker motors?
 
Dec 31, 2012
91
Catalina 28 mkll #649 Port Charlotte, fl
Evinrude and Johnson were real good 2 strokes... the 9.9 & 15 hp were the same block and weight.... thats why if the boat was rated for that much hp..... i would always use the 15.... fair winds.
 
Mar 5, 2012
152
Hunter 37-cutter Saint Augustine
hello everbody, wow what replys ,,, its simple a 2 stroke has more power to wieght than a 4 stroke 6 ho would be perfect for your boat although you are going to get all of these replys a 2 stroke has more power to wieght than a 4 stroke but really a 2 stroke is much simpler in desigin than a 4, the olny thing that you have to be concerned about is that a 2 stroke has a sertaine power band and that is the sweet spot where it runs best, I had a 28 ft cal with a 9.9 johnson it ran for the 12 years I had the boat. never flush it, just made sure that I ran it out of fuel before I put it away, I dont have a clue as to haw long the previous owners had it. It never said no. and when I sold it it still ran great, so second boat was a 19 ft o day mariner had 3 motors on it turns out I Put a 6 hp johnson ran forever never gave me a problem although no charging. I put a solar charger on it to keep house battery charged. I am a master mechanic and would always say that a 2 stroke is just plain simple and reliable.but just to say that i have a 19 ft power boat as well and 1986 johnson it still kicks but and still do not have a problem. just remember run it out of gas before you put it away, because you dont know how long it will sit up before your next time out. also remember this economy is no an issue with a sailboat as once you get out and sails up you dont need the motor
 
Feb 25, 2010
18
Catalina 30 Long Beach
Whether two or four stroke, at the end of the day, let the fuel run out of the carb.
Don't ever run a two strokeout of gas ! I knew a guy who used to disconnect the fuel line and run the engine until it stopped after every use. He thought he was keeping his fuel system clean. The engine was junk in two years. Here's why. Oil creates a film between metal parts to prevent scraping and wear. In a two stroke motor, the oil is in the gas. The oily gas is drawn in through the carburetor and through a reed valve. It then lubricates the main and rod bearings, crankshaft, seals and the cylinder walls, before being compressed and ported into the cylinder. There is no other oil. If you remove the fuel, the motor will, depending on engine speed, run out of fuel and will spin from 5 to 50 revolutions at high speed with metal on metal on the mains, rods, crankshaft, seals, and piston rings. This will cause devastating wear in a few years of heavy use. In two strokes, always leave gas in the Carburetor.
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
8,318
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
Don't ever run a two strokeout of gas ! I knew a guy who used to disconnect the fuel line and run the engine until it stopped after every use. He thought he was keeping his fuel system clean. The engine was junk in two years. Here's why. Oil creates a film between metal parts to prevent scraping and wear. In a two stroke motor, the oil is in the gas. The oily gas is drawn in through the carburetor and through a reed valve. It then lubricates the main and rod bearings, crankshaft, seals and the cylinder walls, before being compressed and ported into the cylinder. There is no other oil. If you remove the fuel, the motor will, depending on engine speed, run out of fuel and will spin from 5 to 50 revolutions at high speed with metal on metal on the mains, rods, crankshaft, seals, and piston rings. This will cause devastating wear in a few years of heavy use. In two strokes, always leave gas in the Carburetor.
Let me be the first to disagree with your "....I know a guy....." factoid. My 21 year old 2 stroke Tohatsu 9.9 is running as good as it always has...i.e. fabulous... and I always run the fuel out of the engine when I leave the boat.

My yearly professional mechanic's inspections and service the 16 years I've had the motor have never revealed any problems experienced by your "source".
 
Sep 20, 2014
1,330
Rob Legg RL24 Chain O'Lakes
There is another reason to not run your engine out of gas. As the bowl runs low, this makes the engine run lean. As it leans out, the engine gets hot, so you take a good chance of melting a hole in a piston. This will be especially true if any performance mods have been done to the engine.
 

Sumner

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Jan 31, 2009
5,254
Macgregor & Endeavour 26S and 37 Utah's Canyon Country
Just a note on this running the carb out. Next time you do it then remove the float bowl drain screw at the bottom of the float bowl and you will see that you really didn't run it all the way out. As soon as the jet starts sucking air the motor dies but there is still gas below the jet level in the bowl. Now that gas is drying out and leaving sediment in there a little by little each time so not sure you are really gaining much.

If I'm using the motor at all I don't try and run it dry, just use it. If it is going into storage at the end of the season or for any other reason I'll shut it off and then remove the drain screw and get 'all' the gas out of the carb,

Sumner

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