As a dealer, I taught my customers how to operate their boat. However, if you are borrowing another sailboat or willing to do anything for them like to move the boat, the big question to ask whether or not there are any issues. If you do not ask nor check for example the sails and gear out before going out, then anything can happen. I am surprised the jib furler and in mast furler were not checked out first or obth did not work. The main thing I am glad is the trip was made safely and all is well. I would advise the owner of that boat what you experienced. Part of that could be out of tune.
Opinions On In-Mast Furling Main
- Thread starter jviss
- Start date
My Hunter 430 has NO Backstay and my Hunter [by the OEM manual] mast has prebend. Most Hunters have NO backstay with what is called B&R rigging. That takes me out of the discussion, since fooling with the standing rigging to furl the main, is at best, very unusual for most recreational sailors.
Jim...
The one better point on the Selden rig is that the furling line goes to a drum on the aft side of the mast. If there is a problem with the furling line you can take a winch handle directly to the drum to wind or unwind the furling mast. There is also a ratchet setting so the sail can be furled and will not unfurl. This allows for reefing in strong winds and not relying on a line or friction to hold the sail at the point of furl.
O.K., but using the winch would require going on deck, right? Also, if jammed, I'm assuming a winch won't help, but maybe make things worse.
The Sparcraft setup I'm looking at is such that the furling or outhaul lines can be put on a winch from the cockpit. As for the ratchet, they are led through sheet stoppers that have a ratchet function when not fully latched.
Yes it would require going forward and I'm not condoning putting more muscle into a mess but lines can slip and break, clutches wear, again I like that there is a mechanical work around on the Selden. It also has a line led to the cockpit and clutches but I like having a plan B.
Yea, I get that. unfortunately, one can't 'order' a used boat, so I'll be going with the Sparcraft that's on this one, if I buy it. I've seen the Selden, not sure it's worth the extra weight, expense, etc., for a winch. Do you know, perhaps, what the justification for the winch might be? And please, how does it constitute a "mechanical workaround," as compared to a winch on the coach roof? Does the winch bypass the furling line?
Came in late to this heated topic, but count me as one who was sceptical about in mast furlers, bought a used boat that has one, and loves it. As others have said, if you furl correctly, no problem. And really, which systems on your boat just allow you to operate them however you feel like? My winches, for example, require that the line goes around clockwise 3 turns and then across the metal bar before going around the self tailer--How demanding! But we do it because that's how it works. The furler wants the sail coming in flat with some tension on the outhaul, which is hardly surprising.
My pre-sale concern was more about performance from a battenless main with so little roach, but it does fine for my purposes. Meanwhile, the convenience and reduced drama completely sold me.
My pre-sale concern was more about performance from a battenless main with so little roach, but it does fine for my purposes. Meanwhile, the convenience and reduced drama completely sold me.
I have a 41ft boat with a full-batten main, TidesMarine StrongTrack, lazy jacks and regularly single hand it. Friction is your enemy. In the Trades or a fresh breeze I probably wouldn't care, in light to moderate wind (mid latitudes) I can outsail any furling sail boat. Pointing and speed. This isn't a binary decision, there are many elements to making a traditional rig work well, luff gear, jacks, halyard set up and winches. Many production boats have way too small secondary winches, making the job of hoisting an unnecessarily difficult chore. I choose to not have a furling main.
Yes it bypasses the furling line. It's not actually a winch it's just a set of beveled gears that turn the mast with the input on one gear being a drum that the furling line goes around from the cockpit via clutches and the like. The center of the drum has a place to put a winch handle in case of line failure.
@jviss
Since you mentioned Sparcraft, here is the history. Same building, pretty much same masts now with an in mast furling mast. Here we go on history.
Kenyon Isomat (friend of mine was their sales mgr.) located in Charlotte, NC was purchased by Z Spar (French owned company) with a facility near Alachua, Florida. The employees at both facilities were let go while the upper mgmt. (four people) for Z Spar in Florida were transferred to the facility in Charlotte. Without the proper training of new but lacking employees, Z Spar was behind in production and delivery of masts with boats built and delivered to dealers. I know as I had two boats for sale without masts. Eventually, the mgr. at Z Spar left for another job which many criticized but his hands were tied. Eventually, the name of Z Spar left out shores. The old employees of Kenyon Isomat reformed in the same building with the same masts but under Charleston Spar. As for Selden, they approached Hunter Marine and that relationship was born. Hunter made darn sure they would not go thru that again. Charleston Spar either was purchased or changed it's name to Sparcraft. I now note that Sparcraft is part of the Wichard group. As for parts for Z Spar, a new company, U.S. Spars opened up in the same facility that Z Spar once occupied outside of Alachua, Florida selling Z Spar parts under that new name and the ownership I have been told is by the same French company or Z Spar in Europe. Selden now supplies masts to Catalina and I am not sure about Beneteau as I have been retired for a while. As for parts for Kenyon Isomat and possibly Sparcraft, it is said that Rig Rite sells those part. I do not believe the forum store has any relationship with Sparcraft but not sure on that. I hope this helps all folks .
As for in mast furling from a dealer perspective now retired, companies mentioned do make excellent in mast furling but it is up to the individual choice what to purchase but the key here is what everyone has been saying, knowledge and experience to include learning is most important. The in mast was specifically designed for the leisure sailing, not for racing but as time goes by, things evolve. As for any information from me comes from knowing the folks who designed the original in mast furling which they asked my advice as well. I only report what worked for me. For example is the 1 degree or less for a straight mast when tuning note that with each boat the rake is different. Another when mainsail is jammed, I use to pull down on the sail by the mast and pull out at the end of the boom. Seemed to work.
I hope this information will answer some questions you have.
Since you mentioned Sparcraft, here is the history. Same building, pretty much same masts now with an in mast furling mast. Here we go on history.
Kenyon Isomat (friend of mine was their sales mgr.) located in Charlotte, NC was purchased by Z Spar (French owned company) with a facility near Alachua, Florida. The employees at both facilities were let go while the upper mgmt. (four people) for Z Spar in Florida were transferred to the facility in Charlotte. Without the proper training of new but lacking employees, Z Spar was behind in production and delivery of masts with boats built and delivered to dealers. I know as I had two boats for sale without masts. Eventually, the mgr. at Z Spar left for another job which many criticized but his hands were tied. Eventually, the name of Z Spar left out shores. The old employees of Kenyon Isomat reformed in the same building with the same masts but under Charleston Spar. As for Selden, they approached Hunter Marine and that relationship was born. Hunter made darn sure they would not go thru that again. Charleston Spar either was purchased or changed it's name to Sparcraft. I now note that Sparcraft is part of the Wichard group. As for parts for Z Spar, a new company, U.S. Spars opened up in the same facility that Z Spar once occupied outside of Alachua, Florida selling Z Spar parts under that new name and the ownership I have been told is by the same French company or Z Spar in Europe. Selden now supplies masts to Catalina and I am not sure about Beneteau as I have been retired for a while. As for parts for Kenyon Isomat and possibly Sparcraft, it is said that Rig Rite sells those part. I do not believe the forum store has any relationship with Sparcraft but not sure on that. I hope this helps all folks .
As for in mast furling from a dealer perspective now retired, companies mentioned do make excellent in mast furling but it is up to the individual choice what to purchase but the key here is what everyone has been saying, knowledge and experience to include learning is most important. The in mast was specifically designed for the leisure sailing, not for racing but as time goes by, things evolve. As for any information from me comes from knowing the folks who designed the original in mast furling which they asked my advice as well. I only report what worked for me. For example is the 1 degree or less for a straight mast when tuning note that with each boat the rake is different. Another when mainsail is jammed, I use to pull down on the sail by the mast and pull out at the end of the boom. Seemed to work.
I hope this information will answer some questions you have.
My 356 had a winch provision and a lock. It was Selden. Anyway, the boom vang or kicker was in the way of a full circle rotation of the winch handle in the gear. Maybe the vang was aftermarket, I don't know. But since it wasn't a ratchet, you would have to take the winch handle out every 1/2 turn and replace it for another 1/2 turn. In other words, it was useless.
Wow, thanks, Dave, for the history! I had learned of some of those relationships in a static sense, but the chronology you provide makes it more interesting. It seemed to be a somewhat incestuous industry, the mast and spar industry, I guess it really is! And apparently nearly all French, both Wichard and Z-Spar, the exception being Selden, a Swedish company.
Beneteau currently uses US Spar, whose logo is a giant Z with a US flag on the top part. They use the same style furling mechanism as Sparcraft.
Makes sense. From the US Spar wedsite: "US Spars is part of group Z-Spar of France, the World's Largest Spar Builders."
@Davidasailor26
Remember the location in Charlotte, Kenyon Isomat to Z Spar, then to Charleston spar then to Sparcraft.
One fellow with Z Spar was designing an in mast furling system and would not surprise me it is one in the same. I knew the fellow who asked me some questions about in mast furling which I responded. He taught me a lot.
Remember the location in Charlotte, Kenyon Isomat to Z Spar, then to Charleston spar then to Sparcraft.
One fellow with Z Spar was designing an in mast furling system and would not surprise me it is one in the same. I knew the fellow who asked me some questions about in mast furling which I responded. He taught me a lot.
I bought a new Catalina 310 (Hull 162) in 2002. This boat has a roller Furling main (Charleston Spars). In the 15 years that I have sailed the boat, I have had the main jam only one time. That one time was my fault, as I didn't keep tension on the outhaul as well as some wind in the main as I furled. I landed up with a fold on the leech. This made it really hard to unfurl the next time out.
For me, the ease of furling and unfurling (usually) as well as not having to leave the cockpit or mess with a sail cover makes the in mast roller furler a good deal. Just be sure to pay attention to your technique when furling!
For me, the ease of furling and unfurling (usually) as well as not having to leave the cockpit or mess with a sail cover makes the in mast roller furler a good deal. Just be sure to pay attention to your technique when furling!
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I know this thread is on in-mast furling systems, but I'm just wondering if you happen to know anything about the history of Schaefer Spars. That happens to be the mast on my boat and apparently they are long out of business... It is not with in-mast furling... But is found on a Hunter.
dj
Years ago in the heyday, there were over 30 mast manufacturers maybe closer to 40 but as the years past too much competition. Kenyon merged with Isomat becoming Kenyon Isomat as an example. I cannot remember Schaeffer Masts but Schaeffer Marine hardware, the name is too close that I would venture it was the same group. Contact Schaeffer Marine and talk with an old timer to see if they know or can point you in the right direction.
Thank you. I did contact Schaeffer Marine but have never gotten a response. Perhaps I should try again.
Just a FYI - it happens to be a really nice mast. I am quite pleased to find it on my new-to-me boat....
dj