? on mounting Deck Organizer & Line Clutch

[Ward H]

You guys helped with my boom to mast reefing hardware questions so now I am on to part two of that project, deck organizer and line clutch mounting. I am running three lines from the mast to the triple ganged clutch.

On the O'day 25 there is very little space between the cabin top hand rails and the sliding hatch rails.
RBone was able to squeeze his deck organizers under the hand rails a bit to line up his lines but my hand rails are a little different so I don't think that is an option.

I'm thinking about putting the deck organizer on a mounting pad to raise it up so the lines go over the slider rail. I think I could get better geometry this way also. I would then raise the clutch as necessary to get a fair lead into it.

Deck organizer will probably be double stacked double block. I might be able to go with a triple block single stack but I think that will be too long to offer any improvement.

Materials of choice would be starboard or teak. Probably need a spacer 1' to 1 1/2" thick.

Any suggestions or opinions?

 

[Joe]

You can certainly mount the organizer on a block.... and also the clutches. Raising the organizer will also keep the lines off the deck... which will keep them cleaner and discourage mildew. As for the clutch gang... you have some choices. Besides its own mounting block plan... you could fabricate a metal bridge to span the handrail... giving you better drainage in this area... Another method would be to remove a rung or two from either end of the hand rail .... you don't really need hand rails the entire length of the cabin top... this would give you a much less cluttered appearance and more space to place the the organizer and clutch box where you want. On my boat, a 70's era Catalina 27, and also many others of that generation, the basic boat came with a winch on the mast, not the cabin top.... if at all. The lines led aft configuration was often special order, or an aftermarket upgrade. Anyhow, on these bare bones vessels the teak handrails were common.. so, on boats with the lines led aft, the handrails were discarded by the owner or left off at the factory.

The point I'm making is that just because your boat has full length handrails, doesn't mean you can't change it to make it work better for you...keeping a boat "factory" has little advantage in resale, especially if the modification makes the boat better.

Finally, I would not consider a three tier set up... too much leverage on the securing bolts.. a two tier block on a 1.5 inch platform will call for an extremely long bolt as it is... don't forget backing plates or large fender washers to support the bolts.

 

[trainmanjess]

hello

good idea about bringing your ropes back to the cockpit for easier handling of your running rigging... I set my boat up the same way... I want to solo sail it, so all my ropes come to the cockpit...

you might relocate the teak handrails closer to the edge of the cabin roof to give yourself more room for your deck organizer and rope clutches... the wood platform for the organizer is good, but remember you do not want to put the organizer above your blocks at the mast base... If you do that, it will increase the friction and you will need to use more force on the ropes.. it is best to keep the organizer equal to or slightly below the blocks at the base of the mast... if you can raise the blocks to be equal to your deck organizers, that would be good too... on my boat I used powercleats, instead of rope clutches... I like the powercleats much better... I rock the rope up (release) or down (lock) to make adjustments... the powercleats take up more room side by side than the rope clutches, but I have the room on my cabin top...

the important thing to remember, is set the boat up for how you will use it... there is not a set of rules on how you must set up your boat...

sincerely
Jess

 

[Ward H]

Hi Joe,
I have 3 lines on the starboard side so the 3 block deck organizer would be single tier but I think the quad block double tier will work better. Hadn't thought about removing a section of hand rail so I looked at a photo of the boat and yes, that would work well. The DO would be right in the center between two supports so removing that one grab rail will probably do the trick and give me the proper geometry needed.
The clutch needs to be shimmed up anyway as the cabin top is curved so I might still shim both to get the lines of the deck as you suggested.

Jess, Good point on watching I don't get the DO higher than the mast blocks. I should be good there because I am using larger blocks than needed. Garhaurer recommended 25 series (2" sheaves) for the reef lines and 30 series, (2 11/16" sheave) for the halyard line. I may go with the 30 series for all three.
I went back and forth on whether to use cam cleats or rope clutches or even plain horn cleats. Hadn't seen the spin locks. Went with rope clutches because they would work and a triple gang would fit in the available space.

appreciate the suggestions, as always.

 

[Joe]

I went back and forth on whether to use cam cleats or rope clutches or even plain horn cleats. Hadn't seen the spin locks. Went with rope clutches because they would work and a triple gang would fit in the available space.

appreciate the suggestions, as always.

Just an additional comment, Ward. I have the garhaurer rope clutches... the are beautiful and quite a convenience... however... DO NOT fall in love with leaving the clutch mechanism on while hoisting the sail... it will tear up your halyard as quick as you can say "What the ^$%^#*!" I hoist by hand with the clutch wide open until I need the winch, then bring it up till it's close, set the clutch, then finish it off.

 

[Scott T-Bird]

Clutches ...

I have the Spinlock clutches and I was careful to get the model that matches the halyard diameters. I leave them closed when pulling the lines thru and have not noticed any significant abrasion over the course of several years. I'm not sure they are as robust as garhaurer and I heard others say that lewmar are better ... but I have been satisfied.

Ward, you might consider 2 pairs of 2 clutches. I have that arrangement on my boat on each side. I also have the 2 x 2 deck organizer and have no problem with lines being led below the organizer. I have more of a problem with the lines coming in too high because the leads are mounted to the mast, not the coach roof (and the roof is sloping away pretty much).

You are doing the right thing. I've always felt that going forward to the mast is not the best thing to do on a small boat where the coach roof is small and sloping. The bigger boats have a much broader roof, which makes it much more comfortable to work at the mast. Our boats are much more precarious in that situation. The more you can lead to the cockpit, the better.

 

[Ward H]

Guys, I don't have a winch for my halyard now and wasn't planning on installing one. I figured I would have more leverage pulling on the halyard from the cockpit than at the mast so I still wouldn't need one after running the lines back. Am I missing something by not having a winch for the main halyard? Should I position the rope clutch to allow for future installation of a winch?

 

[Scott T-Bird]

You are probably at that borderline where having a winch isn't necessary but it would be nice to have. Without a winch, the positioning of the leads is more important because adding blocks and changing the angles adds friction which makes your effort harder. Granted, your leverage is better when you can brace yourself in the cockpit, (and I agree that it is a big difference compared to standing on a pitching coach roof) but you are adding at least 2 blocks and angle changes.

I would say that you should position the clutches for the best way they will work without the winch. You can change the location if and when you add a winch.

 

[tomlax12]

Ward, just to let you know I am doing the same thing. I will be installing a winch on at least the starboard side. How had your progress?

 

[Ward H]

tomlax12,
Mine turned out pretty good. Did use a spacer under the rope clutch but wasn't satisfied with the spacer under the organizer. I had already potted and drilled the holes, then found I had the organizer upside down and the top of the bracket was smaller than the bottom. Turned it over and found I had to cut off a bit. Then shimmed it on one side, bedded and bolted it tight. Not much space but doable.

For the rope clutch I found there was a space between the bottom of the deck and the cabin roof. I drilled 3/4" holes and put the washers and nuts inside, then found plugs to cover the holes. It was the same way they mounted the hand rails.

 

[Mitch Howes]

tomlax12,
Mine turned out pretty good. Did use a spacer under the rope clutch but wasn't satisfied with the spacer under the organizer. I had already potted and drilled the holes, then found I had the organizer upside down and the top of the bracket was smaller than the bottom. Turned it over and found I had to cut off a bit. Then shimmed it on one side, bedded and bolted it tight. Not much space but doable.

For the rope clutch I found there was a space between the bottom of the deck and the cabin roof. I drilled 3/4" holes and put the washers and nuts inside, then found plugs to cover the holes. It was the same way they mounted the hand rails.

 

[Mitch Howes]

Sorry for the Hijack. these pictures are an immense help. I am doing almost exactly what you have done except I am running two lines through a double deck organizer aft through a double clutch and to a winch on Starboard or port side. THE MAIN OBSTACLE FOR ME is that the Deck organizer has to be mounted directly over my Beam header which is at least 4 inches thick. How the heck can I mount this? Is it possible to tap and drill as I do not think I can find 5 inch stainless steel bolts for through bolting. The other option might be to use a stacking double foot block instead of the deck organizer although this will not solve my problem. Any bedding compound suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Any help guys? Thanks

 

[BudGates]

I'm not familiar with the Cat 27 so I can't help much there but I can tell you that 5" bolts are often available on eBay.

 

[CloudDiver]

One way to make more space for the lines having a fair lead to the clutches is to get rid of those teak handrails... seriously.
My boat is smaller than yours and I made room for 3 lines on each side by getting rid of the handrails and mounting new stainless handrails to the outboard drip-rail. See pics in my thread on page 30 here;
http://forums.sailboatowners.com/in...-of-1981-c-22-swing-keel-10580.166613/page-30
The 24 inch stainless hand rails from West Marine are very affordable and well built, you could mount two on each side farther outboard. They look nice and are zero maintenance, not teak varnishing!
http://www.westmarine.com/buy/west-marine--stainless-steel-handrails--P012868733
I'm not sure what your interior overhead is like (liner or no liner), but these should easily drill through and mount. The old teak hand rail holes, tape off the bottom, fill 98% to the top with epoxy. When cure, use a like sized drill bit to just turn the top of the hole clean about 1/8" deep and make a clean surface, the fill with Spectrum Gel-Paste which you can get color matched to the boat; They don't list much for O-day, but you can call them and they might have a similar color for your non-skid. The 2-oz patch paste kit is about $25, and you are only filling bolt holes so if the color isn't a perfect match it won't stick out too much.
http://www.spectrumcolor.com/Items.aspx?code=K&key=cat

You can def add cabin top winches at a later time. Scott-T Bird's pic is a perfect example to go by, just make sure the position of the clutches is anywhere between say 16 to 24 inches of the proposed winch location. On my boat the clutches are 11 inches forward of the winch, but my max line size is 5/16. You might want a little more space than a foot. Stand in the cockpit where you normally would if you had to reach for the clutch on the cabin-top, get an idea of how far forward is too far and back up to an ideal position, keeping in mind you still want to be about 16 inches in front of the winch.

I'm using Stainless Andersen 10's as my cabin top winches, they are around $150 each. These are the same size as the original primary winches on my C-22 (I upgraded to larger self tailers). They are a great halyard winch for up to 5/16 (8mm line), but once you go to 3/8" or bigger its not so great, the thicker line does not make 3 wraps very well and starts to kink up. Choose you cabin-top winch according to your make line size that will be running through the clutch.
Plan out your running rigging fo lines led aft. How many lines will you use? How many do you really need? Will you want to add lines in the future like single line reefing, a spinnaker halyard, etc? I have 6 lines total and I'm not using them all just yet but I will have room for the spinnaker stuff. If you can see yourself using it all, go with a pair of stacked doubles on each side for a total of 8 lines and two pair of double clutches. Otherwise, you might be fine with two triple organizers and two triple clutches... It gets expensive! Remember to plan well and if there is any wood in your cabin top core, epoxy pot the mounting holes! If there is no wood in the laminate core you don't have to do that.

 

[Mitch Howes]

Thanks for all the great information CloudDiver. I am on the fence as to how much money I wish to spend on this project. The boat is a 1979 Cat 27 and it could use some fibreglass repair. There are lots of deck mounts on her that may or may not have been properly installed. I can't seem to find out if it is a wood core boat online. How do you tell? (Newbie question sorry). I looked at your linked page. You have done some great work. I could not find the pic of your SS rails that you installed in place of the teak? I think I am just looking to run My main and jib halyards aft for the time being. .. Just a little worried about adding 12 ish new holes to the deck.
Cheers

 

[CloudDiver]

In the pics on page 30 the hand rails are not there, just the feet I had to make out of epoxy filler are visible. You wouldn't have to do that on your boat, they are designed to mount on a flat surface.
A 79 C-27 definitely has a plywood core on the decks and the cabin top, but the sliding hatch may be solid fiberglass (you wouldn't mount anything trough that anyway). Look on the West System website, they have great articles including how to epoxy 'pot' mounting holes. When you over-drill a 1/4" hole to 5/16" you will get wood shavings after the fiberglass. If you look into the hole and see fresh wood you are good to go, if you see dark or black wood or a big gap, that tells you there was water leakage and there is core rot in the area. There are ways to fix that, some easy and some hard, but hopefully your decks are good and don't need to be re-cored.
if you are going to only run the two halyards back aft you can get away with installing just one clutch on one side of the mast for now. I would go with the triple because if you look at the price it is not much more than the double, and you'll have space for one more line. Next year or later you can add another clutch to the other side... you'll want more eventually. You could also do what Scott suggested and have a pair of doubles on each side, so just with one double clutch on one side and double deck organizer... as the seasons go by just stack the deck organizers and add the additional double clutches.

 

[BudGates]

I think I am just looking to run My main and jib halyards aft for the time being. .. Just a little worried about adding 12 ish new holes to the deck.
Cheers

I understand what you mean. I dread every new hole that I end up drilling into my deck. With this in mind you might consider planning out your layout to leave room for expansion before installing anything. It could make a difference of where you decide to start drilling. Another consideration that can minimize the holes needed would be to install hardware that is grouped together on a plate first then install the plate to the deck. This is how I was able to install all 6 clutches with only 4 holes rather than 12.

 

[Mitch Howes]

Thanks but I cannot exactly install a clutch and a winch on the same plate and still maintain 16 inches of separation. You guys have been a great help. Just going to have to drill bigger holes and epoxy my through bolts.

 

[Mitch Howes]

Just a heads up guys. I already have a used Lewmar double clutch, a winch and a double deck organizer on their way from ebay.

 

[Stu Jackson]

My main and jib halyards aft for the time being. ..

If you have roller furling running the jib halyard aft is unncessary.