On Demand Propane Water Heater?
- Thread starter Stephen Trapani
- Start date
- Status
Oh, no! Facts.
Stephan will probably say that the propane fires were caused by electrical failures.
Stephan will probably say that the propane fires were caused by electrical failures.
In 2008 3X as many boaters died from CO Poisioning!
BTW I just opened my copy of the 2008 USCG Recreational Boating Stats:
Table 6
MACHINERY & EQUIPMENT PRIMARY
CONTRIBUTING FACTOR OF ACCIDENTS & CASUALTIES
2008
Electrical Systems - Accidents =38 / Deaths =0 / Injuries =11
Table 5 PRIMARY CONTRIBUTING FACTOR OF ACCIDENTS &
CASUALTIES 2008
Carbon Monoxide - Accidents =8 / Deaths =3 / Injuries =11
If you want to use stats
it looks like 3 times as many people died in 2008 from CO poising than they did from electrical systems...
Perhaps Peggy can quote her source mine is from the 2008 USCG Recreational Boating Statistics..
BTW I just opened my copy of the 2008 USCG Recreational Boating Stats:
Table 6
MACHINERY & EQUIPMENT PRIMARYCONTRIBUTING FACTOR OF ACCIDENTS & CASUALTIES
2008
Electrical Systems - Accidents =38 / Deaths =0 / Injuries =11
Table 5
PRIMARY CONTRIBUTING FACTOR OF ACCIDENTS &CASUALTIES 2008
Carbon Monoxide - Accidents =8 / Deaths =3 / Injuries =11
If you want to use stats
it looks like 3 times as many people died in 2008 from CO poising than they did from electrical systems... Perhaps Peggy can quote her source mine is from the 2008 USCG Recreational Boating Statistics..
Re: In 2008 3X as many boaters died from CO Poisioning!
Yes, I was looking at those stats. Difficult to tell how many were from the prevalent CO poisoning on the swim platform variety. You said that propane sniffers are notoriously faulty. Are CO detectors faulty often? They say they are working but they are not?
Yes, I was looking at those stats. Difficult to tell how many were from the prevalent CO poisoning on the swim platform variety. You said that propane sniffers are notoriously faulty. Are CO detectors faulty often? They say they are working but they are not?
I mentioned the Bristol 32 I saw blown up in Boothbay. Here is an excerpt from their story about the disaster.
[FONT="]"By mid-afternoon, it was raining. Back on board for dinner, they prepared something new on the little galley stove: stir-fry Thai chicken.[/FONT]
[FONT="]As a precaution, propane tanks are usually contained inside a box that vents outside the boat. That was the case with Chanticleer: the tank was contained in a box under a seat cushion in the cockpit. A hole in the bottom of the locker allowed leaking gas to flow overboard above the waterline. But a previous owner of Chanticleer had modified the design, leaving the regulator outside the box. From this point, leaking gas could only drop into the bilge. [/FONT]
NOTE: This was not an ABYC compliant LPG installation!
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]And on that rainy April evening in Boothbay Harbor that’s exactly what the leaking propane began to do. At first, the fuel collected in a pocket just above the keel. When that filled, the propane spread under the floorboards, the cloud expanding forward and aft. Gradually, the propane level rose, like invisible water in a bathtub. When the bilge was filled, propane seeped into the lower cabinets, mingling with tools, engine parts and emergency supplies. “I had emergency electrical kits, filters, nuts, bolts, lots of hardware,” Baker said. There were dishes, silverware, glassware,” he said. Had Baker or Plamondon gotten down on all fours, they might have smelled the propane, since an unpleasant scent is added to the otherwise colorless and odorless gas. They would have known something was wrong. Instead, as the propane rose around their feet, they busied themselves with preparing supper, oblivious to the danger that had invaded their quiet evening. All the gas needed was a spark or flame to set it off.[/FONT]
[FONT="]By suppertime, a cold rain drummed overhead. Below deck, it was cozy. By the tiny coal stove, it was warm enough for bare feet and a T-shirt. Plamondon was at the two-burner cookstove, tossing veggies and chicken into the heavy-duty wok. Baker put on a favorite Willy Nelson CD, “The Healing Hands of Time,” then opened the hatches to let out the smoke that the wind kept blowing back down the stack into the cabin from the coal stove. “Finally, I got it regulated,” he said. “We were just vegging out. I had just mixed a Sundowner – rum and orange juice.” In the next moment, Plamondon was slammed violently backward.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]“I remember flying backward through the air and landing on my back and butt,” she said. “I remember Kira’s blood-curdling yelping.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Somewhere on the boat, the swelling cloud of propane had found its spark, exploding in an instant of extreme violence. The flash shocked their pupils closed. Suddenly, all was dark. “I just felt the tremendous devastation of the blast,” Baker said. “Stuff was flying everywhere. I couldn’t find Kira. I thought it was the middle of the night. I was scrambling around, feeling for her.” Plamondon was thrown against a bulkhead door.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Everything was dark,” she said. “(Phil) screamed at me to get out of the boat, but there were no more stairs.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]She turned to exit forward, but the door was jammed closed from debris piled up from the blast. She turned again to exit toward the cockpit and saw a ball of fire on top of the engine, where the stairs would have been. “No way could I jump that,” she said. “But I did. I don’t know how, but I did it.” Baker reached for a fire extinguisher, but the bulkhead where it had been mounted was gone. “I thought if I got the fire out, we’d have an easier time getting off the boat,” he said. Somehow, he managed to get out of the cabin with Kira. [/FONT]
[FONT="]About a hundred yards away, dockmaster Peter Chase was aboard his boat at the Tugboat Inn Marina. “I heard an explosion. It shuddered my boat. It almost reminded me of someone touching off a cannon,” he said. “I went up on deck and looked around.”[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]By then, they had managed to climb off the boat into the dinghy, carrying the lifeless body of Kira. “It was pouring rain, freezing rain, and we were barefoot,” said Baker. In the boat, he got a better look at Plamondon, who had taken the worst of the blast. Her face was blackened and her hair singed short. Her eyebrows were burned off. Her eyelashes were singed together. Her jeans were torn. Her hand was bleeding. She thought she had a broken leg. In his lap, Baker felt Kira’s crispy fur and saw her staring eyes. “Kira’s dead,” he said. “I had lost the boat, Kira was dead, Debi was crying,” said Baker. “It was awful.” Then, he felt Kira’s tiny chest move. Miraculously, Chanticleer’s trio of passengers, now huddled in the rain in the tiny dinghy, had all survived. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Chanticleer[/FONT][FONT="] was not so fortunate. Having absorbed most of the force of the blast, her hull was declared a total loss. The blast cracked apart the fiberglass deck in several spots. Stuck in the jagged fissures were the remains of the meal that never got eaten: pieces of broccoli and red pepper. The deck was separated from the hull along the starboard rail. The wood around the cockpit was splintered. Below deck, it looked like someone had ransacked the place. Drawers and contents were scattered about. [/FONT][FONT="]Baker said he would receive a $35,000 insurance settlement, most of which will go to the bank. Safety experts say he is lucky to be around to collect any of it.[/FONT]
[FONT="]“They were very fortunate to have survived,” said Jeff Ciampa, a marine safety inspector for the Coast Guard. Baker and Plomondon are convinced that opening the hatch shortly before the explosion to let the smoke out gave the force of the explosion somewhere to go.[/FONT]
[FONT="]There was very little fire damage to the boat, probably because the propane mixture was rich enough to detonate, but too lean to ignite, said Steve Dixon, an investigator from the Maine State Fire Marshal’s office. Dixon said the source of ignition appears to have been the open flame on the galley stove. Initially, it was thought to be a spark belowdeck somewhere in the boat’s 12-volt electrical system. “We are 100 percent sure it wasn’t that,” said Dixon. “Both the bilge pump and the water pump are protected.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Plamondon’s first- and -second-degree burns have healed. What she thought had been a broken leg was a bruise that turned her lower leg black and blue for several weeks. A penny-sized puncture wound in the back of her hand –possibly from the handle of the wok – eventually healed. She later had surgery to remove a piece of glass from her hand. The shard had come from a lead crystal glass that Baker had given her earlier as a gift.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Once, he awoke convinced that the boat he had worked so hard on was salvageable. “I went up to see it. I thought I could rescue it if I had two years. I drove up to Boothbay. It was very discouraging. I’d forgotten how bad it was. I had to abandon the idea.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]But neither Baker nor Plamondon has abandoned cruising. And neither thinks twice about using propane again, though Baker said next time he’ll install a propane sensor in the bilge. Since the accident, they have spent their weekends boat hunting." [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]"By mid-afternoon, it was raining. Back on board for dinner, they prepared something new on the little galley stove: stir-fry Thai chicken.[/FONT]
[FONT="]As a precaution, propane tanks are usually contained inside a box that vents outside the boat. That was the case with Chanticleer: the tank was contained in a box under a seat cushion in the cockpit. A hole in the bottom of the locker allowed leaking gas to flow overboard above the waterline. But a previous owner of Chanticleer had modified the design, leaving the regulator outside the box. From this point, leaking gas could only drop into the bilge. [/FONT]
NOTE: This was not an ABYC compliant LPG installation!
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]And on that rainy April evening in Boothbay Harbor that’s exactly what the leaking propane began to do. At first, the fuel collected in a pocket just above the keel. When that filled, the propane spread under the floorboards, the cloud expanding forward and aft. Gradually, the propane level rose, like invisible water in a bathtub. When the bilge was filled, propane seeped into the lower cabinets, mingling with tools, engine parts and emergency supplies. “I had emergency electrical kits, filters, nuts, bolts, lots of hardware,” Baker said. There were dishes, silverware, glassware,” he said. Had Baker or Plamondon gotten down on all fours, they might have smelled the propane, since an unpleasant scent is added to the otherwise colorless and odorless gas. They would have known something was wrong. Instead, as the propane rose around their feet, they busied themselves with preparing supper, oblivious to the danger that had invaded their quiet evening. All the gas needed was a spark or flame to set it off.[/FONT]
[FONT="]By suppertime, a cold rain drummed overhead. Below deck, it was cozy. By the tiny coal stove, it was warm enough for bare feet and a T-shirt. Plamondon was at the two-burner cookstove, tossing veggies and chicken into the heavy-duty wok. Baker put on a favorite Willy Nelson CD, “The Healing Hands of Time,” then opened the hatches to let out the smoke that the wind kept blowing back down the stack into the cabin from the coal stove. “Finally, I got it regulated,” he said. “We were just vegging out. I had just mixed a Sundowner – rum and orange juice.” In the next moment, Plamondon was slammed violently backward.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]“I remember flying backward through the air and landing on my back and butt,” she said. “I remember Kira’s blood-curdling yelping.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Somewhere on the boat, the swelling cloud of propane had found its spark, exploding in an instant of extreme violence. The flash shocked their pupils closed. Suddenly, all was dark. “I just felt the tremendous devastation of the blast,” Baker said. “Stuff was flying everywhere. I couldn’t find Kira. I thought it was the middle of the night. I was scrambling around, feeling for her.” Plamondon was thrown against a bulkhead door.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]“Everything was dark,” she said. “(Phil) screamed at me to get out of the boat, but there were no more stairs.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]She turned to exit forward, but the door was jammed closed from debris piled up from the blast. She turned again to exit toward the cockpit and saw a ball of fire on top of the engine, where the stairs would have been. “No way could I jump that,” she said. “But I did. I don’t know how, but I did it.” Baker reached for a fire extinguisher, but the bulkhead where it had been mounted was gone. “I thought if I got the fire out, we’d have an easier time getting off the boat,” he said. Somehow, he managed to get out of the cabin with Kira. [/FONT]
[FONT="]About a hundred yards away, dockmaster Peter Chase was aboard his boat at the Tugboat Inn Marina. “I heard an explosion. It shuddered my boat. It almost reminded me of someone touching off a cannon,” he said. “I went up on deck and looked around.”[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT]
[FONT="]By then, they had managed to climb off the boat into the dinghy, carrying the lifeless body of Kira. “It was pouring rain, freezing rain, and we were barefoot,” said Baker. In the boat, he got a better look at Plamondon, who had taken the worst of the blast. Her face was blackened and her hair singed short. Her eyebrows were burned off. Her eyelashes were singed together. Her jeans were torn. Her hand was bleeding. She thought she had a broken leg. In his lap, Baker felt Kira’s crispy fur and saw her staring eyes. “Kira’s dead,” he said. “I had lost the boat, Kira was dead, Debi was crying,” said Baker. “It was awful.” Then, he felt Kira’s tiny chest move. Miraculously, Chanticleer’s trio of passengers, now huddled in the rain in the tiny dinghy, had all survived. [/FONT]
[FONT="]Chanticleer[/FONT][FONT="] was not so fortunate. Having absorbed most of the force of the blast, her hull was declared a total loss. The blast cracked apart the fiberglass deck in several spots. Stuck in the jagged fissures were the remains of the meal that never got eaten: pieces of broccoli and red pepper. The deck was separated from the hull along the starboard rail. The wood around the cockpit was splintered. Below deck, it looked like someone had ransacked the place. Drawers and contents were scattered about. [/FONT][FONT="]Baker said he would receive a $35,000 insurance settlement, most of which will go to the bank. Safety experts say he is lucky to be around to collect any of it.[/FONT]
[FONT="]“They were very fortunate to have survived,” said Jeff Ciampa, a marine safety inspector for the Coast Guard. Baker and Plomondon are convinced that opening the hatch shortly before the explosion to let the smoke out gave the force of the explosion somewhere to go.[/FONT]
[FONT="]There was very little fire damage to the boat, probably because the propane mixture was rich enough to detonate, but too lean to ignite, said Steve Dixon, an investigator from the Maine State Fire Marshal’s office. Dixon said the source of ignition appears to have been the open flame on the galley stove. Initially, it was thought to be a spark belowdeck somewhere in the boat’s 12-volt electrical system. “We are 100 percent sure it wasn’t that,” said Dixon. “Both the bilge pump and the water pump are protected.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]Plamondon’s first- and -second-degree burns have healed. What she thought had been a broken leg was a bruise that turned her lower leg black and blue for several weeks. A penny-sized puncture wound in the back of her hand –possibly from the handle of the wok – eventually healed. She later had surgery to remove a piece of glass from her hand. The shard had come from a lead crystal glass that Baker had given her earlier as a gift.[/FONT]
[FONT="]Once, he awoke convinced that the boat he had worked so hard on was salvageable. “I went up to see it. I thought I could rescue it if I had two years. I drove up to Boothbay. It was very discouraging. I’d forgotten how bad it was. I had to abandon the idea.”[/FONT]
[FONT="]But neither Baker nor Plamondon has abandoned cruising. And neither thinks twice about using propane again, though Baker said next time he’ll install a propane sensor in the bilge. Since the accident, they have spent their weekends boat hunting." [/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
New Math
quote=Maine Sail;762060]
Electrical Systems - Accidents =38 / Deaths =0 / Injuries =11
Carbon Monoxide - Accidents =8 / Deaths =3 / Injuries =11
If you want to use stats it looks like 3 times as many people died in 2008 from CO poising than they did from electrical systems...
Hey MaineSail. I know you young guys took "New Math" back in grade school, but the last time I looked it up in the tables: three times zero = 0
Hang in there and hold the front line on this one. Propane may be really convenient but the hazard on a boat is extremely real. I too saw a boat blow up at Lake Sunapee in NH one day. Down near Newbury a cabin cruiser was getting ready to depart and were a bit from shore when a huge explosion took place. People all jumped overboard and the boat burnt to the waterline as the fire dept. didn't have a fire boat. This was back in the 60's, it was from gasoline fumes but the idea is the same. Made quite an impression on me as I was learning to sail in my sunfish.
quote=Maine Sail;762060]
Electrical Systems - Accidents =38 / Deaths =0 / Injuries =11
Carbon Monoxide - Accidents =8 / Deaths =3 / Injuries =11
If you want to use stats
it looks like 3 times as many people died in 2008 from CO poising than they did from electrical systems... Hey MaineSail. I know you young guys took "New Math" back in grade school, but the last time I looked it up in the tables: three times zero = 0
Hang in there and hold the front line on this one. Propane may be really convenient but the hazard on a boat is extremely real. I too saw a boat blow up at Lake Sunapee in NH one day. Down near Newbury a cabin cruiser was getting ready to depart and were a bit from shore when a huge explosion took place. People all jumped overboard and the boat burnt to the waterline as the fire dept. didn't have a fire boat. This was back in the 60's, it was from gasoline fumes but the idea is the same. Made quite an impression on me as I was learning to sail in my sunfish.
62-ft Schooner had 52 schoolgirls onboard then...Ka-BOOM!
First off, some numbers never make it into the statistics because of shear luck.
In Nanaimo, BC, there was a charter boat - standardly these are Coast Guard inspected and are required to meet additional requirements over an above our, *ahem*, "yachts"... that made the local news.
Yet, were it for just a few minutes of time, it would have made the World news.
This charter boat had just returned to port and off-loaded some 52 7th grade school girls and staff when just about 15 minutes later the boat went Ka-BOOM!
Here is a link to a news release article about that incident: http://www.canada.com/victoriatimes...=8d2612c2-c6e4-4326-af42-ffea8daae107&k=11864
The explosion was caused by LP gas and a spark. Don't remember if it was electrical related or not but as I recalled someone was making, or going to make, coffee - I *think*. This was a while back so my memory on the details are a bit fuzzy.
I hate to think what might have happend had the minute hand on the clock been off by just a mater of minutes. Oh my God. Nothing but just total luck!
The point isn't to make a case against gas near as much as it is to point out how the numbers being thrown around with the statistics could have been changed tremendously - if it weren't for just a few minutes of time.
[Disclaimer: Okay, so it would have changed Canadian statistics.]
As an aside, note that many larger pleasure boats (read: assessor tax gimmies) are all electric, including heat and stoves. Of course it does take a diesel generator to power all these conveniences but for the most part new boat manufacturers seem to be avoiding LP. Wouldn't be surprised if the chance of Liability could be a factor in the decision making.
Somehow, it seems, electrical malfunctions don't seem to have quite the headline appeal of a gas fire or explosion.
On-demand gas water heaters have been used in Europe for probably half a century and used to be quite common. But then European liability law suits are not as common as in the US because, as I understand it, the blame is apportioned vice winner-take-all.
First off, some numbers never make it into the statistics because of shear luck.
In Nanaimo, BC, there was a charter boat - standardly these are Coast Guard inspected and are required to meet additional requirements over an above our, *ahem*, "yachts"... that made the local news.
Yet, were it for just a few minutes of time, it would have made the World news.
This charter boat had just returned to port and off-loaded some 52 7th grade school girls and staff when just about 15 minutes later the boat went Ka-BOOM!
Here is a link to a news release article about that incident: http://www.canada.com/victoriatimes...=8d2612c2-c6e4-4326-af42-ffea8daae107&k=11864
The explosion was caused by LP gas and a spark. Don't remember if it was electrical related or not but as I recalled someone was making, or going to make, coffee - I *think*. This was a while back so my memory on the details are a bit fuzzy.
I hate to think what might have happend had the minute hand on the clock been off by just a mater of minutes. Oh my God. Nothing but just total luck!
The point isn't to make a case against gas near as much as it is to point out how the numbers being thrown around with the statistics could have been changed tremendously - if it weren't for just a few minutes of time.
[Disclaimer: Okay, so it would have changed Canadian statistics.]
As an aside, note that many larger pleasure boats (read: assessor tax gimmies) are all electric, including heat and stoves. Of course it does take a diesel generator to power all these conveniences but for the most part new boat manufacturers seem to be avoiding LP. Wouldn't be surprised if the chance of Liability could be a factor in the decision making.
Somehow, it seems, electrical malfunctions don't seem to have quite the headline appeal of a gas fire or explosion.
On-demand gas water heaters have been used in Europe for probably half a century and used to be quite common. But then European liability law suits are not as common as in the US because, as I understand it, the blame is apportioned vice winner-take-all.
LPG vs CNG
I believe that those European heaters are using CNG not LPG. BIG differance. CNG is lighter than air and has a perfect record in all cases except for some gas main breaks. That is why they call it safety gas. That is the gas that is supplied to homes via pipes.
I believe that those European heaters are using CNG not LPG. BIG differance. CNG is lighter than air and has a perfect record in all cases except for some gas main breaks. That is why they call it safety gas. That is the gas that is supplied to homes via pipes.
Interesting viewpoints, all.. Here is mine: I don’t see one incident being quoted that is root cause pertinent to current ventless, tankless water heaters. Note that almost all incidents with LPG are the result of the connections and piping between the tank and the appliance. No safety trips are currently specified for that line.. That supply line is covered in the ABYC standards. I do accept and appreciate Maine’s notes about the ABYC as the standards that are to be used by new yacht manufacturers and as a result may be the guide used by insurance companies for boats that they are considering covering. I believe that they are useful standards and if used will result in a vessel that is safe to operate. My “jaundiced eye” (from having worked with committees of both ASME and API) take on this is that the manufacturers of the water heaters do not want to take the time or spend the dollars to run the gauntlet of testing, paper generation, and committee meetings necessary to have the standards ammended so their product can be considered to be acceptable. Notice I don’t say “approved"; the organizations don’t approve or dis-approve, they write standards and a product either meets or doesn’t meet the standards. The tankless heaters in their current configurations clearly don’t meet the current standards, as written. Having looked (covers off, poking around) at the heaters and used a few myself, I believe that a vented one with cabin air intake could be considered safe for a diesel powered boat with the addition of a low mounted, functioning CO alarm/detector and LPG detector mounted in the cabin. I believe that the ABYC standards were written to accommodate “regular” water heaters that typically have a constantly burning pilot, cycle on and off “unattended” to maintain tank temp, and not a heater that only has combustion when/if a hot water tap is opened. The tankless units have a lot of good thought put into the number of safety trips that are designed into the combustion systems. (most have low oxygen, low water flow, high temp in water side, and flame out) I believe that a vented unit in an enclosed, drip proof space need not be entirely marine-ized..The ones that I’ve looked at and used were made of appropriate materials, especially in the combustion systems. Remember, many of these were designed to be OK in a remote, third world application. It would be prudent to provide for a way of testing the safety trips on a regular basis to insure that they work, however no such test is required of a stove’s trips.. I don’t have a tankless heater (I have one of the ones that can go over temperature from engine heat, that did meet the ABYC standard) nor would I use one without CO and LPG detectors, nor would I use a non-vented one in a closed space in a boat.. Again, My opinion.. with that and around $5 you may be able to get a non-scalding Starbucks!!
Another question, to go along with the last one I asked, which someone will hopefully still answer (What is the failure rate of CO detectors?):
Some of you seem very leary of the very idea of using propane, as if it is a high risk proposition just due to the nature of it, yet looking at the USCG statistics for accidents and deaths in boating, one must guess at just how dangerous propane systems are. Why? They don't even mention it as a primary contributing factor in accidents or deaths anywhere! No "propane," no "LPG," no "gas explosions," no "CO poisoning due to non-engine combustion,"...nothing! Why not, if it is such a danger??
They have deaths due to "engine failure" (7 in 2009)
They have deaths due to "seat broke loose" (4 in 2009)
They have deaths due to "ignition of spilled fuel or vapor" (3 in 2009?)
They have many others "alchohol use" (120 in 2009)
Why nothing specific about "CO poisoning due to non-engine vapor" or "LPG vapor ignition?"
Mustn't the answer be that it isn't significant enough to list?
Some of you seem very leary of the very idea of using propane, as if it is a high risk proposition just due to the nature of it, yet looking at the USCG statistics for accidents and deaths in boating, one must guess at just how dangerous propane systems are. Why? They don't even mention it as a primary contributing factor in accidents or deaths anywhere! No "propane," no "LPG," no "gas explosions," no "CO poisoning due to non-engine combustion,"...nothing! Why not, if it is such a danger??
They have deaths due to "engine failure" (7 in 2009)
They have deaths due to "seat broke loose" (4 in 2009)
They have deaths due to "ignition of spilled fuel or vapor" (3 in 2009?)
They have many others "alchohol use" (120 in 2009)
Why nothing specific about "CO poisoning due to non-engine vapor" or "LPG vapor ignition?"
Mustn't the answer be that it isn't significant enough to list?
Claude,
This is EXACTLY what I have been working with the ABYC on to get changed. it goes to committee next month!!
NO water heater on a boat should be able to supply 180+ degree water, or anywhere close to it, to the faucet. I do suspect a fight from industry on this one as a temepring valve will add perhaps another $30.00 to the price of a new vessel. They should be ashamed however that many children and adults have been scalded by 170+ degree hot water coming out of a faucet on a boat!
Stephen,
Buy the heater, install it, and find a HACK surveyor there are plenty, and go for it.
Keep in mind that the data you are looking at probably includes a .001% population of vent-free water heaters installed on boats compared to mostly factory installed systems.
LPG and electricity are far safer than a lot of things on boats, and I consider them quite safe, but I would still never personally install a vent-free water heater on my own boat that so egregiously goes against the grain of current industry standards because if I did I would be on my own.....
As I have said many times your boat, your choice. You seem rather hesitant about it yet still striving for justification. If you want justification call your OWN insurance company and explain what you want to do. Please don't leave out the fact that this device is vent-free and not ABYC complainant and see the underwriting department has to say. They often record these calls so be honest.. If they say "sure go for it, your covered" then what more "justification" do you need. They are the ultimate arbiter of what you do on your boat not me or any other SBO poster, not the ABYC, not the marine industry, not ANSI just you and your own insurance company or surveyor who surveys to ABYC safety standards. If they are willing to take the risk then you're good to go.
I agree with you, Maine.. and I note that many heaters now come with a tempering valve installed.. I am sure that as a standard item on the heater, like the P/T valves, the added cost would be tiny ! I don't have one on my heater now but when it fails (probably soon) the new one will include a tempering valve. Today, everyone gets the hot water danger talk as part of the basic safety talk..
Another note.. One of the tankless heaters that I talk about is also ventless and is on a houseboat that I play on sometimes. That heater set off the CO alarms in the cabin as a result of a spider and web in the burner air intake area.. we cleaned out the crispy critter and her house and everything was fine again.. The low oxygen cutoff on that particular heater is not designed to catch that contingency...
Another note.. One of the tankless heaters that I talk about is also ventless and is on a houseboat that I play on sometimes. That heater set off the CO alarms in the cabin as a result of a spider and web in the burner air intake area.. we cleaned out the crispy critter and her house and everything was fine again.. The low oxygen cutoff on that particular heater is not designed to catch that contingency...
Claude,
Great post and thanks for sharing your view point. Not sure everyone is aware that the weakest point of any installed appliance is the connection.
Joe
Great post and thanks for sharing your view point. Not sure everyone is aware that the weakest point of any installed appliance is the connection.
Joe
The standards seem to seek to reduce the potential for leaks by limiting the number of fittings and to limit the effect of a leak to the LPG locker. I have had squirrils chew through propane grill hose two or three times which is a real good reason to close the tank valve each time you finish. I always pressure test the system before walking away from the propane locker.
LPG dangers
The dangers of LPG are real. The safety precautions however have lead to a safe product and safe usage. The do's and don'ts of an LPG installation severely limit the potential leakage of gas into the boat and compliance is pretty high due to the danger when you don't follow the guidance.
I'd be willing to bet that there is not a single boater out there that would allow a LPG cylinder to be even be stored "down below" let alone be connected to an appliance.
It is all about the engineering and getting verification that the safety features are in place.
CNG by comparison is pretty safe to mess around with. I had a friend's kid bump the stove burner control to ON but the gas bottle was turned off at the bottle so nothing happened. I did not notice that the burner was on though. I came back to the boat a week or so later to prep her for a storm and decided to stay the night. Made some coffee on the stove on a different burner and about 2 hours later went to sleep. Woke up at 0400 in the morning due to a funny hissing sound. The burner had been on for around 8 hours and I had lit and smoked several cigarettes. There was not even any gas smell!!! I'm pretty sure a LPG boat having a similar experience would have been blown up.
The dangers of LPG are real. The safety precautions however have lead to a safe product and safe usage. The do's and don'ts of an LPG installation severely limit the potential leakage of gas into the boat and compliance is pretty high due to the danger when you don't follow the guidance.
I'd be willing to bet that there is not a single boater out there that would allow a LPG cylinder to be even be stored "down below" let alone be connected to an appliance.
It is all about the engineering and getting verification that the safety features are in place.
CNG by comparison is pretty safe to mess around with. I had a friend's kid bump the stove burner control to ON but the gas bottle was turned off at the bottle so nothing happened. I did not notice that the burner was on though. I came back to the boat a week or so later to prep her for a storm and decided to stay the night. Made some coffee on the stove on a different burner and about 2 hours later went to sleep. Woke up at 0400 in the morning due to a funny hissing sound. The burner had been on for around 8 hours and I had lit and smoked several cigarettes. There was not even any gas smell!!! I'm pretty sure a LPG boat having a similar experience would have been blown up.
Allow me to explain. Ever see "The Truman Show?" Wonderful story about the human condition. I believe it portrays one of the most common ways we sabotage our dreams. We have the choice of whether to take the easy path and continue to have our dreams and desires stifled by irrational fears and falsehoods, or to push for the truth and find out what the real dangers are of moving forward...to find out what we should and shouldn't be afraid of so we can have what we dream, if it is feasible, or change our goals. People will try to stop us based upon their irrational fears or their plans for us. People will also give us good information about real dangers and better ways to proceed. We have to investigate and use good reasoning to tell the difference. That's what I'm doing.
The advantage of having remote hot water on my boat would be huge. South Puget Sound is filled with numerous wonderful gunkholes perfect for remote anchoring. My raw water 2QM15 won't do it. I know of no other option for comfortable living for the less hardy members of my crew. I could give up that dream. If there is no reasonably safe way to do it, I will. But it has to be based upon the truth. And so far, based upon my best, yet fallible means of discerning the truth, what I see is a safe way to use the Excel heater to achieve this dream. A CO detector, propane detector, liberally used solenoid switch, my nose stuck into compartments before ignition and regular inspections seems like they should more than enough to make this dream a reasonably safe reality.
I'm still open to hearing where I may be going wrong and I truly appreciate all the input and concern so far. Thank you.
Very well said Stephen T
As long as there is sound engineering behind it I see no reason why you could not enjoy the benefits of gas hot water.
I would want to make sure that no matter how dumb I got there was a "fail safe" means of insuring that no gas (CO, LPG) could escape the heater and get into the boat or that the heater would suck up the O2 from the boat. Which is what all the talk of venting is about.
Once there is a fresh air intake and an exhaust outlet and they "drain" LPG overboard there is pretty much no issue except the gas hose leading to the heater. And we all know how to route those so they don't get holes in them over time.
So I screw up or the unit's valve malfunctions in some weird way that lets gas leak or creates CO. Whoopty-Do-Basel, it vents overboard and unless I stick my head in front of the opening where it is draining and light a cigarette there is NO problem.
Then just keep up the maintenance like any other gas appliance.
As long as there is sound engineering behind it I see no reason why you could not enjoy the benefits of gas hot water.
I would want to make sure that no matter how dumb I got there was a "fail safe" means of insuring that no gas (CO, LPG) could escape the heater and get into the boat or that the heater would suck up the O2 from the boat. Which is what all the talk of venting is about.
Once there is a fresh air intake and an exhaust outlet and they "drain" LPG overboard there is pretty much no issue except the gas hose leading to the heater. And we all know how to route those so they don't get holes in them over time.
So I screw up or the unit's valve malfunctions in some weird way that lets gas leak or creates CO. Whoopty-Do-Basel, it vents overboard and unless I stick my head in front of the opening where it is draining and light a cigarette there is NO problem.
Then just keep up the maintenance like any other gas appliance.
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