On Demand Propane Water Heater?

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JoeD

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Aug 31, 2005
116
Columbia 34 MKII Smith Point,VA
Do understand your intent. Think you should reread the whole thread and you will find I installed a vented one not non vented. But, That was my choice because alswys try to be on the safe side.

I do have a problem with some marine Surveyors. many like to cut and paste from their data base. Also stated there good ones out there.

This thread is a good one and again stated some Surveys I have read after customer came to me to get an Engineers report were laughable. Guess after spending a lot of years working in the Marine Industry working with Ship Yards and ABS that I am a little picky when it comes to Surveys. They should be simple statement of fact as to the condition of vesel as inspected with data and pictures to back up the inspection. Have witnessed many times that an opinion was stated and not fact.

Many times on the sailing boards people make statements about a product that have never touch one but have a negative about them. Who knows why, Us Enrineers are a funny sort we drive ourselves crazy researching stuff. Maybe that is a good thing but you will never see a good Engineer biuld any thing on someones foundation with out proper testing and knowledge of it. Example would a replacement of shell plate on a wing tank on a ship from a yard. Welds look good but you had better RT it to be sure.

Think everyone on this thread understands that these heaters are not approved by ABYC. That will change over time as the European Boats will be the first to offer them.

Joe
 
Jun 3, 2004
298
'79 Hunter 33' HUN33190M79L Olympia
Truth be told I would love to have one but would not consider one until they meet the applicable US safety standards for marine use.
Maine Sail, Maybe you have missed my posts regarding the apparent disparity in fear regarding gas vs electric appliances on boats. I'm conjecturing that your statement above reflects that irrational paranoia. No offense. I'm just trying to get at the true risks here for the safety of my boat and my family. If my conjecture is wrong and there is a rational reason to avoid these uncertified propane devices and ignore all the uncertified electrical devices on my boat then I want to know about it.

If I'm right, then you have numerous electrical devices on your boat that are uncertified, like inverters, solar chargers and controllers, microwaves, breaker panels, coffee makers and many others. I can provide you with links to inverters and solar devices sold on West Marine today that are not ABYC approved and I wager you haven't cautioned anyone about those despite the fact that they usually run unattended. Am I wrong?
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Maine Sail, Maybe you have missed my posts regarding the apparent disparity in fear regarding gas vs electric appliances on boats. I'm conjecturing that your statement above reflects that irrational paranoia. No offense. I'm just trying to get at the true risks here for the safety of my boat and my family. If my conjecture is wrong and there is a rational reason to avoid these uncertified propane devices and ignore all the uncertified electrical devices on my boat then I want to know about it.

If I'm right, then you have numerous electrical devices on your boat that are uncertified, like inverters, solar chargers and controllers, microwaves, breaker panels, coffee makers and many others. I can provide you with links to inverters and solar devices sold on West Marine today that are not ABYC approved and I wager you haven't cautioned anyone about those despite the fact that they usually run unattended. Am I wrong?
One word PALOMA! Also I have personally replaced 7, YES SEVEN propane sniffers, two smoke detectors and one failed CO detector all in the marine environment. I test my LPG sniffer multiple times per summer and they are horribly unrelaible. I also worked in the hydronics industry and was the guy doing warranty inspections of failed safety controls on boilers, furnaces and water heaters. They can fail and do a LOT more than one would suspect..

This is a direct quote from a marine surveyor:

I am sympathetic to the insurance problems, but the bottom line is safety. I personally do not like the use of any unattended propane be it for hot water refrigeration or whatever. There are a lot of problems with these heaters. If they are not clearly labeled with a ABYC or UL for marine use I write them up. And I have yet to any that are approved but here in the south we do not see many. I have always been told by fellow surveyors that if you end up in court the prosecution will be waving a copy of ABYC as if it were the bible. So any surveyor is well aware we have to follow those recommendations.

That aside I have watched as a friend was removed from his boat in a body bag because of CO poisoning, and I have had a couple of close calls testing propane stoves.
(I will no longer light them to test during a survey) My job is to make owners and buyers aware of safety hazards as well as rate the condition of the vessel. Safety is my first responsibility in my mind. So if I see it and it does not meet recommendations I write it up and explain why. Sorry if that is a problem with insurance but what good is insurance if you are dead?


Sorry if I am jaded and cautions after working in that industry for many years but until these units can MEET or exceed the applicable safety standards you won't find me condoning their use.
 
Jun 3, 2004
298
'79 Hunter 33' HUN33190M79L Olympia
How do you explain the statistics quoted by Peggy Hall about the overwhelmingly higher danger from electrical appliances? Apparently I am using the word "certified" when I should have been using the term "approved." Sorry. Still doesn't your boat still contain many unapproved electrical devices, or am I still misunderstanding? I tried looking on the ABYC site, but at $25 per document for members, I was unable to gain any understanding there. Are you saying that all solar electrical devices are approved because they adhere to other organization standards? Thanks for your help.
 
Jun 3, 2004
298
'79 Hunter 33' HUN33190M79L Olympia
Paloma

Also, why apply the Paloma example to the Excels? Weren't those caused by CO poisoning due to the pilot light? The Excel doesn't have a pilot light that burns unattended.

The surveyor in your story seems to be applying a strong bias to propane devices because of his highly unusual personal experience. If his experience represented reality he would have carried out tens times as many bodies caused by electrical problems and he would be applying evem more strict standards to those. Where am I going wrong here?
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
Re: Paloma

Maybe when they develop a CO detector that shuts off the fire the way a GFCI shuts off the electricity the concerns about gas appliances will be diminished. I am old enough to remember when you could get an electrical shock if the radio had its plug in wrong and you were to touch an exposed screw.
 

JoeD

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Aug 31, 2005
116
Columbia 34 MKII Smith Point,VA
Ross, It already exist. Might be a good Consulting Gig for you.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6045352.html

But, How long would it take to get approved. Kind of like dealing with FDA, How many years? Would be fun to shove that in the face of Insurance Companies, make them tell you no anyway. Then due the American thing Sue them.

Joe
 
May 6, 2004
916
Hunter 37C Seattle
Excell's oxigen sensor

The "ventless" unit I intalled is called "ventless" because it has an oxigen depletion sensor that is supposed to shut off the gas when the oxigen level depletes to a certain ( unspecified ) level. I intend to make sure this feature works. I ran the heater for 8 minutes on high flame in the closed cockpit locker ( which shares the air space with the stern lockers) and it didn't shut off. So I am going to run it longer until it shuts off or I conclude the sensor doesn't work. Maybe I will put my CO detector in the locker to see which goes off first, the alarm or the heater. It does have the feature that shuts off the gas if the flame goes out. I am going to see if there is some way to test that also.

I have no dissagreement with MainSail's postings.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Would you buy an artificial heart at Harbor Freight? A cheap propane device will kill you all the same. A boat is simply not an RV. It's a dangerous semi-sealed bowl that holds the heaviest gas in the bilge waiting to kill you.
I would put one of those excels on my boat, but it would be treated like it was going to fail.
There is no way I would install it in the cabin.
And are you people installing other propane devices that are not marine rated?
 

Alan

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Jun 2, 2004
4,174
Hunter 35.5 LI, NY
....better ask the Cowboys !! The Giants made mush of them. The only reason they had half their points was the Giants gave them to 'em.
 
Jun 3, 2004
298
'79 Hunter 33' HUN33190M79L Olympia
The "ventless" unit I intalled is called "ventless" because it has an oxigen depletion sensor that is supposed to shut off the gas when the oxigen level depletes to a certain ( unspecified ) level. I intend to make sure this feature works. I ran the heater for 8 minutes on high flame in the closed cockpit locker ( which shares the air space with the stern lockers) and it didn't shut off. So I am going to run it longer until it shuts off or I conclude the sensor doesn't work. Maybe I will put my CO detector in the locker to see which goes off first, the alarm or the heater. It does have the feature that shuts off the gas if the flame goes out. I am going to see if there is some way to test that also.

I have no dissagreement with MainSail's postings.
A properly burning propane flame produces no CO, so you won't able to get the CO detector to work that way with the heater working properly.
 
Jun 3, 2004
298
'79 Hunter 33' HUN33190M79L Olympia
Would you buy an artificial heart at Harbor Freight? A cheap propane device will kill you all the same. A boat is simply not an RV. It's a dangerous semi-sealed bowl that holds the heaviest gas in the bilge waiting to kill you.
I would put one of those excels on my boat, but it would be treated like it was going to fail.
There is no way I would install it in the cabin.
And are you people installing other propane devices that are not marine rated?
Surely they are, right along with all the electrical devices that are not marine rated that you and everyone else installs. My repeated (and as yet unanswered) question is why are all of you making such a big stink about the propane devices when statistics show the electrical devices you are installing are killing far more people?
 

Ross

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Jun 15, 2004
14,693
Islander/Wayfairer 30 sail number 25 Perryville,Md.
An electrical fault will kill or injure one person. A CO problem can kill a whole boat load of people. That is just one reason to be concerned.
 
Sep 25, 2008
2,288
C30 Event Horizon Port Aransas
Surely they are, right along with all the electrical devices that are not marine rated that you and everyone else installs. My repeated (and as yet unanswered) question is why are all of you making such a big stink about the propane devices when statistics show the electrical devices you are installing are killing far more people?
Also don't clean your gun loaded, and don't let someone else pack your chute, there are a lot of things that are dangerous and you should heed all of them. Are you trying to divert away from the point about unrated propane devices? Start a thread on the dangers of electric egg beaters left unattended if you will, I just don't think they are as dangerous.
 
Jun 3, 2004
298
'79 Hunter 33' HUN33190M79L Olympia
Also don't clean your gun loaded, and don't let someone else pack your chute, there are a lot of things that are dangerous and you should heed all of them. Are you trying to divert away from the point about unrated propane devices? Start a thread on the dangers of electric egg beaters left unattended if you will, I just don't think they are as dangerous.
But you're dead wrong!! Didn't you see the statistics Peggy Hall quoted toward the beginning of this thread (#18)? Electrical accidents on boats kill far far more people. The number of people killed by propane is so small they don't even have a category for it. This is about propane devices and the apparently irrational fear of them, way out of proportion to the danger!
 
Feb 26, 2004
22,986
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Stephan, many folks provide some supporting evidence and/or something positive.

Why not just give it a break?
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,701
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Surely they are, right along with all the electrical devices that are not marine rated that you and everyone else installs. My repeated (and as yet unanswered) question is why are all of you making such a big stink about the propane devices when statistics show the electrical devices you are installing are killing far more people?
Consider what statistics are and how boats are modified over the years for electrical vs. propane and you might find your answer. You are trying to use one stat with no qualifications or quantification's to help you justify your decision. You can't really use stats that way unless you want to make a justification. You can't compare apples to oranges.

The vast majority of boats I go on are usually untouched from the factory when it comes LPG installations. These installations were usually built to safety standards at the time of install though some were not if they are old enough. Ours is a 1979 and would meet today's standards for an LPG install of the LPG range as it came from the factory in 1979.

Interestingly enough our boat was flagged during survey due to a Tee for the cabin heater that was not located in the LPG locker, my friend Norm the PO had done this. Before I could get insurance I had to remove the Tee and pipe the LPG heater to meet the current safety standard by going straight from the heater to the LPG locker. I would have done that anyway but our insurance company made us do it, regardless. Even in Maine perhaps only 1 in 12 boats I go on have any sort of added LPG appliances such as a cabin heater which means the systems are largely untouched from the factory install, can;t say the same for electrical.. We do not use our cabin heater because I feel it is an unsafe unit, it is VERY wet, and it is not a sealed combustion device. It will get replaced by an Espar or Webasto diesel unit.

Was just on a neighbors 1979 CD-36 this afternoon with a 100% original LPG installation and the only changes had been to add a propane sniffer and shut off switch in close proximity to the galley, both of these are ELECTRICAL upgrades not propane related in terms of go boom. My neighbor tom who lives behind me has a 1996 Sabre 362 and it too has an untouched, unmodified, factory LPG system. The locker, solenoid location, fittings and stove are all the same, no changes. I see this all the time.

Overlay the largely untouched factory installations of propane systems to electrical systems and you will see a VAST difference in DIY activity!

I can't even recall the last time I was on-board a boat that did not have a DIY touch the wiring or many, many hands touch the wiring over the years. Everything from battery bank modifications to piss poor inverter installs or home made shore power connections out of extension cords, improper grounding, unsupported wire runs etc. etc. etc.. People I find are far more apt to "tap in" to a wire to add a GPS or other electronic device. They'll use a 14Ga wire for a load that should really be 8GA and so on. "Oh it's only low voltage DC", yeah, but with 3000 amps of current behind it!!!!

This is what happens with DC if you are not careful and DO NOT use fuses:


I tend to look beyond basic stats and look at the why and how those stats may be what they are.

I personally saw a Bristol 32 that blew up in Bootbay Harbor due to a DIY LPG modification. Not pretty! It split the hull and deck at the seam of the boat but both people on-board lived. It scared the hell out of me seeing that boat.

Think about what you see in a marine chandlery when you go down the electrical aisle vs. the propane "section"?

There are VERY FEW fittings and pieces to choose from when it comes to propane so mismatches, hose sizing, etc. so hose, solenoid or valving issues are drastically minimized. All the fittings are industry standard but usually can't be mismatched.

With electrical you have hundreds of fuses to choose from, piles of crimp connectors, multiple gauges of wire, alternators, inverters, pumps, etc., etc. etc., on and on. With electrical you have oodles more ways to create a hazardous installation that you do with propane.

In short the stats are likely what they are because more people mess with the DC systems on their vessels than they do with the factory installed LPG systems and LPG systems have less variability in available "parts & pieces" than do electrical options..

It's not as if propane is 100% safe, but it is VERY safe, if the system is installed properly.

Here are just a couple of instances where it was not safe for what ever reason.

"A small sailboat exploded into flames in an apparent propane explosion this afternoon, blackening the sky and crowding downtown with rescue personnel and spectators.

While there were some efforts to extinguish the flames, the boat was eventually towed out into the bay and sunk, East Jefferson Fire-Rescue Chief Gordon Pomeroy said.

No one was injured.

The boat’s operator was not aboard when it caught fire and arrived on shore to watch the flames and smoke after the fire started.
Pomeroy said the operator did not own the craft, described by the Coast Guard as a 40-foot Catalina sailboat that was one of several legally anchored in the bay off City Dock.

Pomeroy said they thought the operator lived on the boat “and lost everything.”"




"A 66-year-old New Smyrna Beach man suffered burns over 80 percent of his body Sunday evening when an apparent propane explosion destroyed his sailboat as it was anchored in the Intracoastal Waterway, emergency responders said.

The victim, identified by New Smyrna Beach police as Richard Sweat, was transported to Orlando Regional Medical Center's burn unit with life-threatening injuries after the 8:30 p.m. incident.

"He said he was making coffee on the stove and that blew up," U.S. Coast Guard Petty Officer First Class John Chandler said.

The force of the explosion lifted the cabin and front deck off the hull of the approximately 36-foot vessel, Chandler said.

Fire officials suspect a problem with the boat's propane system may have caused the blast.

Chandler said residents who lived near the explosion in the 400 block of Quay Assisi, just north of the North Causeway Bridge in New Smyrna Beach, reported the explosion shaking their homes.

Sweat's cat also was on board the vessel and it survived, Chandler said, "Although I don't know how.""

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCrwm4nV0c
 
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