O'Day 32 - questions from Greenhorn

Joe11688 · Nov 27, 2008

The picture didn't come out, but I'm guessing that you have a damaged foam filled rudder blade. I'm told that the spade type rudder's were made very similar to the rudders that hang on the transom. I've gone through two of those rudder blades on my O'Day 222, myself. I finally smartened up and had a new solid rudder blade built by a fellow named Rudy Nickerson of D&R Marine. I haven't had a problem since. Luckily, Rudy lives about 8 or 10 miles from me in Massachusetts. Rudy worked for O'Day and bought all the O'Day boat molds, plus all the parts that they had in their factory after they folded up and went out of business. Rudy is probably the only one who has parts for these boats and he ships them anywhere in the world. He also contract out to have some of the O'Days built back in the mid 1990s. If your rudder is foam filled, it is doubtful whether it can be repaired. I tried it myself and was very unsuccessful. On the other hand, I suppose that it is possible to build one out of laminated marine plywood and fiberglass, but weight may be a factor after it is mounted. I'm giving you Rudy's web link to check out, and you may want to give him a call. I wish you the best of luck! http://www.drmarine.com/
Joe

Joe11688 · Nov 28, 2008

Konstantin,
I'm pretty sure that O'Day had a company that supplied them with these rudder blades. The blades were molded in two halves. Then they were glued together and pumped with foam. My rudders developed cracks and each time I tried to make repairs with fiberglass, it would keep cracking. I had one rudder blade actually break in half on me while I was out sailing in the Bay. Also, there is a seam around the edge of these rudder blades, and any kind of flex will almost always open this seam. I think that if they had made that rudder out of a solid material, they would have never had problems with them. As it is, foam isn't really a strong substance, and the blade is only as strong as it's outer molded fiberglass shell. I think that it's a waste of time and money to try and repair it, but I may be wrong. I can understand your predicament. These rudder blades are very expensive for the average American to buy in the states, and I can't imagine the cost of shipping it to Russia. I remember reading in one of my boat magazines, "Wooden Boat" magazine I think, and they had an instructional article in it with pictures on how to build a rudder out of sandwiched marine plywood and fiberglass. I can't seem to find that magazine at the house right now. You could use your old rudder blade for a pattern. If you're not up to taking on a task such as this, perhaps you could find someone at a local boatyard that could build it for you. One of our old yacht club members owned an O'Day 32 similar to yours. He's no longer in the club but I still see his boat out on the river in the summer months. They are a pretty nice boat. I wish you luck.
Joe

RAD · Nov 28, 2008

Konstantin,
That rudder looks like water got into it and then it froze causing the crack on the bottom, just a thought maybe remove the rudder and turn it upside down and pour epoxy into the crack and be prepared to have a lot of epoxy on hand in case it swallows it up
Joe, what do you think?

Joe11688 · Nov 28, 2008

Rad,
I'm really not sure. Years ago, when I was having my rudder built, Rudy told me that they used some kind of compound in his rudders to make them strong. Although his rudder blade may be a little heavier than the original Foss Mfg rudder blades, they were stronger. I'm guessing that Konstantin's rudder blade has a metal shaft that goes into the blade and has some sort of a welded cross member that keeps the shaft from turning in the blade. I still think that his best bet is to have one made locally. Here's a link to a Youtube that shows how a blade can be built using a good grade of marine plywood along with epoxy and cloth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyGrrr7tlSE I Googled "Sailboat Rudders" and just found it. I hope that I was able to be of some help to you.
Joe

Joe11688 · Nov 28, 2008

Rad,
I think that the problems that you run into with epoxy is trying to get it to stick to a surface with foreign materials like foam, and an inside surface that hasn't been thoroughly roughed up and cleaned with Acetone. With that said, you would have to cut the seam of the blade all the way around and take it apart, clean out the foam, reconstruct the damaged area and rough it up, and clean it good with Acetone. Then you would have to epoxy the two halves together and fill it with something like an epoxy compound, but you still wouldn't know if the blade is going to have any voids inside, or whether the blade is going to be too heavy and throw the boats center of effort off kilter. I'm really not all that knowledgeable about these things. I tried to fix my two rudder blades about 3 or 4 times and was unsuccessful. After I had Rudy build me a new solid blade, the old blades sat down in my cellar for years and I didn't have the heart to throw them out, but I finally wound up doing just that. I always thought that the 192s and 222s were the only boats with these type of rudders, until I talked to Rudy. He told me that the O'Day 40s had them also. He showed me a large spade rudder in his shop that he was sending out to someone. Big bucks!
Joe

Joe11688 · Nov 30, 2008

Konstantin,
There might be one other option for you. It may be possible to fix this blade by pulling it off the boat and laying it down flat on a work bench, and to cut the whole side off of the blade. All of the foam would need to be removed. The blade and the metal shaft would have to be held in place on the table by any means possible, in order to insure perfect alignment. With the side off, you could get at the inner shell of the rudder and make the appropriate fiberglass reconstruction and also add the filler, which comes in synthetic sheets of various thicknesses. It would be similar to using a Balsa core. Once the blade is filled with the synthetic filler saturated with Epoxy resin, the final step would involve the reconstruction of the piece of fiberglass that you cut out in order to get to the inside of the blade. This Reconstruction would involve epoxy saturated fiberglass cloth, and a filler such as micro-balloons. I'm thinking that an expert fiberglass guy could make this repair, which is no different than doing a repair of this nature on a core rotted fiberglass deck of a boat. You may be able to tackle this job yourself. If so, I recommend that you try to get the book entitled, "Sailboat Hull & Deck Repair" by Don Casey. You would need to find out about the core material and where to purchase it. Search out "Epoxyworks" on the web. There is some information on rudder repair using West System Epoxies.
I recommend that you use a good brand of Fiberglass Epoxy and stay away from Polyester type resins. If worst comes to worst, you could always build the rudder out of wood. Wood has been around a lot longer than fiberglass and continues to be used this very day. I wish you luck!
Joe

Joe11688 · Dec 2, 2008

Konstantin,
I'm afraid I don't know much about inboard engines, but the Atomic 4 inboard engines are pretty popular and 30 Hp sounds like more than enough engine for this boat if it runs good. Just make sure that you have a good blower system for removing any gasoline fumes prior to starting, and always keep an eye on any potential fuel leaks. I would prefer a diesel engine in a boat of that size, but as long as it runs good, I'd go ahead and use it. You probably have this site;
http://www.iheartodays.com/ But if you don't, you can check out your boat on it. Take your time, ask a lot of questions, and think things through before you make any decisions on how to attack the rudder blade problem. I don't see any reason why you couldn't repair this blade in the same way that one would repair a laminated deck. Once again, I wish you luck. Please let us know how you make out.
Regards,
Joe

RAD · Dec 2, 2008

Konstantin,
Try this link and type in atomic-4 in a search engine and you'll find a ton of info
because most of the time we only use the engine to get out of the dock slip and when there's no wind, there's not a lot of hours put on the engine and if yours was taken care of I can see this lasting a long time and there are plenty of them still running around also make sure the blower is run before starting and refueling and check the fuel tank for integrity
http://www.atomic-4.com/

RichBone · Dec 2, 2008

Why couldn't the whole rudder be wrapped in several layers of fiberglass after its dried out?

Joe11688 · Dec 2, 2008

I suppose that where it's a spade rudder which doesn't have to fit into an Aluminum rudder head similar to the way my outboard tip up rudder is set up, it's possible to do that, provided you have the necessary clearances in that particular area of the hull. The only problem is; you would need to fair the layers of cloth with a filler, and the final product would come out larger than the original design of the blade, which would look a little abnormal with the net possibility of poor steering performance. These foam filled rudder blades are probably OK if you never hit anything with them. The foam filled blade that came with my 222 was a tip up rudder blade and what happens is; when the blade creeps up as little as a 1/2", a lot of weather helm is created on the tiller which causes the blade to flex. If I'm sitting at the tiller, I can feel it and correct the situation by resetting the rudder blade pendant line, but I use an autopilot about 98% of the time and there is no way I can know. After I broke my second blade, I had no idea how to fix it. The information wasn't available to me back then as it is now and I wasn't into PCs. I don't live very far from Rudy's shop, so having him build me one was a no brainer for me. Actually, he had a business partner named Jeff who was building rudders on the premises of his old location in Freetown Ma. I think that part of your suggestion has merit though. I would want to do away with that seam that goes around the whole blade, and the only way to do that would be to grind it out, build it back up with cloth, and fair it with filler. The end result would be a blade with no seam that can open up. Maybe, Konstantin can get away with doing just that. If that doesn't work, he can always replace the inside core later.
Joe

Joe11688 · Dec 3, 2008

Konstantin said:
Joe! Do you know what kind of foam was used to fill up O'Day rudders? Was it single-component or two-component foam?

Konstantin,
I'm giving you a copy of the page from my O'Day 222 manual on my kick-up rudder blade. Also, I have the link to Foss Mfg. which will explain how these rudders are manufactured today compared to years ago.
http://fossfoam.com/index.htm I hope that I was able to be of some help to you. The best of luck to you my friend.
Joe

FOSS FOAM, INC.

II POLYURETHANE FOAM
YOUR FOSS FIBERGLASS & URETHANE RUDDER

The Foss Company has been producing sailboat rudders for over 20

years for most major boat companies.

. The fiberglass blade with
its rigid urethane core makes a~ extremely strong, dependable
rudder.

The near neutral buoyancy of your rudder helps the performance of
your boat by reducing total weight, as well as reducing the moment
of inertia in the stern. Near neutral buoyancy also is helpful,
should the rudder ever need to be removed for steering system repairs.
The boat does not need to be hauled out of the water to
remove the rudder.
Tough fiberglass and urethane plastic used in the construction of
your rudder is nearly indestructable. The urethane core is composed
of a strong rigid closed cell urethane. Water, diesel solvents,
or marine borers will not damage your rudder blade.

'.

When you paint your rudder the first time, particular attention
should be paid to the paint manufacturer's instructions for preparing
the surface. Solvent washing is not enough. The rudder
must be sanded heavily to remove a heavy coating of mold release.
We recommend whi tepaints be used. White is a popular color, ,as
it is easy to see weeds and other debris which can catch on your
rudder.
Surface repairs may be performed by cleaning, drying, and roughing
up the damaged area and applying bondo or any similar filler
with a putty knife. Should a small blister appear, it may be
filled with resin or cut away and repaired. Once the patch has
dried, it may be sanded smooth and painted directly with bottom
paint or any coating you desire.
We do not recommend the use of dark colors on your rudder, as
they generate heat when the boat is out of the water in the sun.
Since the rudder is made of cellular material, this heat can cause
dimensional changes and cosmetic damage. If the rudder is painted
with a dark color, it should be shielded from the sun with a white
wrapping when the boat is out of the water. The rudder warranty
excludes damage caused by heat.
You should make periodic inspections of your rudder and look for
possible damage from grounding or electrolysis.
REPRINTED FROM FOSS FOAM BULLETIN
Foss Foam,-rDC.--------
4480 - 126th Ave. N:
Clearwater, FL 33520

4185

- -

Shoaldrafter · Dec 8, 2008

Konstantin - in Russia a new commentator

Konstantin:

I just reviewed all the posts about your problem. Joe is usually a source of good and helpful information.

In reviewing your comments, the expense of getting new rudder seems to be issue.

The comments indicate difficulty in repairing foam filled rudders. Difficulty does not mean impossible if careful study and planning are done.

I would follow recommendations to remove rudder for repair. Completely dry it out. Cut it open as best you can around original seam.

With two halves exposed, remove all rotten or water damaged materials. Evaluate if both halves will go together or joined easily. If not, modify sides so that after interior repair they can easliy be joined together flush as possible.

The suggestion of using balsa wood to fill any voids sound good, if it is obtainable in your location. If it is not tell us what is that you would consider using and will collectively will comment.

After interior repairs are made to rudder, you will use epoxy to glue two sides back together. After two sides are glued together, you will make 10 or more thru the rudder holes. They will be countersunk at ends for fairing. You may use stainless steel bolts to bolt glued halves.

Alternatively, make epoxy fiber reinforced hole fillers to act as frp bolts to strengten holding two halves together.

If you choose stainless steel bolts, make sure that they are below surface so that you cover with epoxy, seal and make watertight.

Make sure that all bolt holes going thru rudder are redrilled larger and filled with epoxy then drilled to original size to insure no more water intrusion.

Here is a helpfull web site that contains much frp repair information:
http://www.epoxyworks.com/

Ed K
O'Day 26

Konstantin said:
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Thank you! It's very useful information for me!
[/left]

O'Day 32 - questions from Greenhorn

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