Observation

[Daveinet]

When I first learned to sail, I realized that using the terms port and starboard was the answer to life. I was much better at reacting to starboard than "my other left". There is some scientific reasoning for this. There are those of us who have ADHD tendencies, the reason of which is that every word is represented by a picture. We don't see words on a page, we see the pictures in our minds that represent each word. In life, left and right changes as you face different directions. This means the word picture is confused and often is wrong, as it looses its meaning every time you turn. Port and Starboard does not change relative to the boat, regardless of which way the boat faces. Port and Starboard are less about a direction that is ambiguous, and more about sides of the boat. For the word picture, one divides the boat in have. Everything on the left half is port, and everything on the right side is starboard. For left and right, we don't normally look at our body and reference a direction, so the word picture is not as concrete and is easily confused, as what we see constantly changes.

As to you boat trim not being what you expect, something I noticed recently is looking at my telltales that are stuck on my jib. Previously I had been playing with sail trim primarily as letting the sail out and finding where it flutters, and then pulling it in some. I've noticed with the jib that results in the leeward side of the sail stalling in the lower section of the sail. Pulling it in till the telltail comes to life, and I noticed the boat pick up speed. In your case, a factor you may not be considering is that as your boat speeds up, your apparent wind chains, which is what the sail sees. The faster the boat goes, the tighter the trim will need to be. I find sailing in moderate winds, that I go from my boom most the way out to about 35 degrees or even less.

I would also suggest that if your sails are blown out, the extra bag will stall the wind much easier. Putting the boom to center may have taken some of the bag out of your sail, and you may have had a larger area of the sail working for you. Most of your lift comes from the luff. If the luff end is baggy, your trim may not be what you really think it is.

 

[Don Guillette]

When sailing downwind your telltales are virtually useless -- you should sail using the wind vane at the top of the mast.

Personally, sailing downwind is my less favorite point of sail BUT in beer can races a mate can use the downwind leg to pick off a couple of boats if he understands how to sail downwind. One reason it works is that's the leg sailors break out the beer /sandwiches and stop paying attention. They'll probably catch you on the next leg but it's fun going by them.

I never liked the Newport to Ensenada Race, mainly because it's all downhill and you could do the same thing by attaching a broom handle with a bedsheet to a 55 gal drum!!

That's not the main reason I didn't like that race even though I did it twice. It was the FOOD on board the boat. The only decent meal we had was a Subway sandwich, which we ate shortly after we left Newport Beach. From a food standpoint it went downhill from there. The boat (a old Newport) didn't have a stove. I was envious of the Catalina/Hunter guys with their fridges, ovens and stoves -- they ate like kings!! I couldn't wait to get to Mexico and get off the boat and get some good food!!

 

[sesmith]

Downwind sailing for me has always been the most frustrating point of sail. Sometimes the genoa gets blanketed...do we change direction a few degrees to try and fill it...do we pole it out...do we pole it out and sail wing on wing with a preventer on the main. Then there's the spinnaker to add another dimension. Decisions decisions. Usually, these frustrations happen most on light wind days. I've found that more wind usually fixes everything. Get enough wind, and we fly the genoa alone...hull speed is hull speed...fixed. Someday I hope to feel competent sailing down wind. Always a learning experience.

As far as knots vs mph. Mph (or kph in Canada) is for my car. Knots is for the boat (even in Canada). Every marine forecast I've ever heard on the great lakes is in knots.

 

[flynhi4u]

Knot versus MPH

Yesterday it was easy choice which term to use to describe our speed. We defined it with knot, as in knot going anywhere! Just that time of year in Indiana when the wind might blow five minutes now, and again in three or four hours. Frustrating time.
We motored out, raised sails, spun around in circles once we lost all momentum, gave the boat a bath, motored back in to the slip, only to have the wind start blowing again for another 5 minutes.
Working on the final measurements for our new sails now. Going to get rid of the drooping boom syndrome our boat currently has. Just trying to decide if we go with their generic foot angle of 88.6 degrees will be enough or if I want to reduce that angle a bit more. A few extra inches lost of the leach edge will really reduce the chances of me taking the boom to the head if I am running the sheets for Cindy, who has the tendency to confuse tacking and jibing and catch me off guard.
I have learned a lot from this post. I basically get the feeling I am going to have to learn our boat all over again once we get our new sails, which will have tell tales. I am installing a wind vane this winter as well. Speaking of which, anyone tried the vane that combines with the vhf antenna? We are looking forward to an exciting season next year with new sails, flying a spinnaker for the first time, learning to read the tell tales and vane, all while getting ready to head north to the channel in July.
Going to be a busy off season as well getting the boat ready. Finally going to build the doghouse cover for our pop top that I have wanted since day one but have always ran out of time to get made. I am sure it will make her feel like we just went from a boy scout pup tent to a dome tent for the first time LOL. Going to also sew up a canopy for the cockpit that we can get some shade from and stay dry under in a light rain while we are on the hook. Will have to wait and see where the boom winds up once we get the new main on before I finalize the design of that one. Been saving all my change for a new Sail Rite sewing machine as my old Kenmore has about had it. There is probably money to be made around our area sewing things for others as just yesterday I had another 20 minute conversation about our cockpit cover, this time with one of the dock attendants. While it can be a bit of pain to put on it is really nice to have a nice clean and dry cockpit each time. We even leave our cushions in place under it. Plus it probably adds just a bit more security to the cabin as it is one more thing for a thief to mess with.
One advantage to a smaller boat is that the gulls seem to have a hard time landing on her. All the other boats around us seem to have an issue but, knock on wood, so far we have escaped unscathed. Now mud dobber bees making nest on our main sail under the cover is a different story. Seems like the last few times we have raised our main after she has set for a few days the dirt ball bees nest just fall off and explode on top of the cabin, hence the need for regular baths. One thing I never though we would have a problem with when we got the boat was critters. Between the ants that would not die last year, to spiders and mud dobbers this year, it has been interesting.
Thanks for all the info and hopefully we can use that to help us sail a bit better and faster.

Sam in IN

 

[Daveinet]

On that size boat, go electric. It makes the lack of wind much less annoying. While of course you main goal is to sail, being able to ghost quietly at 3 or 4 knots even when there is no wind is still enjoyable. we took a week long sailing vacation. Two days had no wind at all. The trolling motor was a life saver. You cans till get a reasonable amount of tranquility, even though you are knot really sailing.

 

[flynhi4u]

I considered electric and we probably would have been fine doing so had it not been for needing a 30 mile range next summer. That probably would have taken more than two batteries, then the weight would have been an issue.
Even the one battery we run now was a bit of an issue. It was on the starboard side of the keel trunk right in the center of the boat. I decided to move it all the way forward to the bow storage area in the V birth. It was a tight fit but it really helped level the boat out when we are both in the cockpit. We don't have near the water oming through the cockpit drain that we did have. Plus it gave us more usable room for storage in the keel trunk area. The bow storage area is so far forward we never used it anyway. I had to trim the opening just a bit to get the battery to fit in the opening and there was just enough room for it sit in there. Worked great.
Love the solar panel. It is basically a plug it in and forget it setup. Wish our whole house was that way !

Sam in IN

 

[pateco]

I have been trying to improve my speed on a beam reach by looking for articles on the internet and You Tube and I have come to the conclusion the only course people sail is close hauled up wind. That said, I have found moving the boom in or out can change speed a half a knot even though the tell tales are flying perfectly (everyone tells you to watch the tell tales). One of the things I have learned is to carefully watch is how much weather helm I have. By adjusting the boom to minimize weather helm gives one more visual indicator for setting the sails.

LakeOntario,

You can also adjust weather helm by moving the traveler while keeping the main trimmed for good airflow. Shifting the traveler from one side to the other effects where the main's force is being applied to the stern of your boat.

 

[Zed]

I considered electric and we probably would have been fine doing so had it not been for needing a 30 mile range next summer. That probably would have taken more than two batteries, then the weight would have been an issue.

If money is not an issue, but weight is, then you might consider a Torqeedo. Although your displacement is not as light as my WWP19, two batteries would get you 16 miles. At least you wouldn't have to fire up the smoke/sound hog as often.

 

[Daveinet]

I considered electric and we probably would have been fine doing so had it not been for needing a 30 mile range next summer. That probably would have taken more than two batteries, then the weight would have been an issue.
...
Sam in IN

30 miles by it self is not an issue, however 30 miles into a 20mph headwind would be. Yes, you can push into a headwind, or have a fantastic range, but not both. Where I vacationed with my boat in southern IL, I motored around for two days, and the battery indicator never came off full. 86lbs thrust, 24 volt, 2 batteries <$400. Most of the time I ran on 3 (5 is max). I have 3 batteries (1 system 2 trolling). They sit just ahead of the centerboard, which helps keep the rear of the boat from sinking. Our boats weigh similar amounts. I don't find the battery weight to be an issue.

 

[flynhi4u]

Sure would be great if the darn wind would blow again down here so I can put all I have learned to good use!

Sam in Indiana

 

[Daveinet]

Sure would be great if the darn wind would blow again down here so I can put all I have learned to good use!

Sam in Indiana

So tempting to reply with a political comment, but I'll refrain.

Lake Monroe sits down low, so its not normally going to get much wind. I vacationed there once a few years back. It was hot, there was no wind, and lots of dead fish floating in the water from power boats. We've since switched to Carlyle Reservoir, which is flooded farm land, so its flat, and much better for wind. As you get later in the year, the winds tend to die down and the tall shoreline isn't helping you any.

 

[danstanford]

LakeOntario,

You can also adjust weather helm by moving the traveler while keeping the main trimmed for good airflow. Shifting the traveler from one side to the other effects where the main's force is being applied to the stern of your boat.

Pateco, I am struggling with this explanation, can you elaborate. I use the traveler to change the amount of "downforce" on the boom but otherwise did not understand the implication in terms of the location of the application of force. If I understand you correctly, on a broad reach where the main is a good distance off centerline, moving the traveler to leeward would change weatherhelm one way or the other based on the place you are exerting the force? My previous understanding would be that moving the traveler to leeward would make the mainsheet have a more acute angle to the boom and exert downward pressure causing the sail to flatten.
I look forward to your explanation as these topics are fascinating to me!

Dan

 

[Jackdaw]

Pateco, I am struggling with this explanation, can you elaborate. I use the traveler to change the amount of "downforce" on the boom but otherwise did not understand the implication in terms of the location of the application of force. If I understand you correctly, on a broad reach where the main is a good distance off centerline, moving the traveler to leeward would change weatherhelm one way or the other based on the place you are exerting the force? My previous understanding would be that moving the traveler to leeward would make the mainsheet have a more acute angle to the boom and exert downward pressure causing the sail to flatten.
I look forward to your explanation as these topics are fascinating to me!

Dan

I'll take a swing at this.

A well-designed boat (along with its sailplan) should exhibit a 'balanced' drive through the water. This means that the combined center of effort (CE) of the jib and main should be at the same horizontal location as the boat's Center of Lateral Resistance (CLR). Actually it should be a bit AFT of that point, giving the boat slightly more drive in the aft which in turn creates a slight amount of weather helm.

This means when boats sails are in ideal trim for a given point of sail, the boat should want to turn slightly into the wind, and a slight amount of helm is needed to hold the boat straight. This is actually good because that slight helm angle generates lift for the rudder.

Now if you want to balance the boat so the helm is perfectly neutral, you typically have to de-power the main. This means talking it out of ideal trim so it generates less power. Any one of the primary mainsail controls can do this (mainsheet, traveler, vang). As was suggested, the traveler is often the easiest and best because it disturbs the overall shape of the sail less than the other controls.

On a fractional boat, simply adding outhaul will flatten the sail, lower the power it generates and will have the same effect.

 

[Jackdaw]

Pateco, I am struggling with this explanation, can you elaborate. I use the traveler to change the amount of "downforce" on the boom but otherwise did not understand the implication in terms of the location of the application of force. If I understand you correctly, on a broad reach where the main is a good distance off centerline, moving the traveler to leeward would change weatherhelm one way or the other based on the place you are exerting the force? My previous understanding would be that moving the traveler to leeward would make the mainsheet have a more acute angle to the boom and exert downward pressure causing the sail to flatten.
I look forward to your explanation as these topics are fascinating to me!

Dan

This part of your comment did not makes sense until I realized your boat might not actually have a traveler! That sentience in bold only makes sense if you were pulling on your mainsheet instead. I think the traveler was option on the arch of your boat; do you have one?

 

[danstanford]

Jackdaw, my boat does indeed have a traveler and I use it exactly as you describe in your note. In a sense, moving the traveler closer to the boom acts in a similar fashion to my boomvang by flattening the sail. I believe this is what you described in your explanation.
My question was to Pateco (not that I don't like your input as it does agree with my understanding), and to his assertion that moving the traveler changes weatherhelm by changing where the force of the main is applied to the boat. This was intriguing and I wanted to understand it more.

 

[danstanford]

I forgot to answer that my boat does have an arch which I love though the bimini with a solar panel on it does obscure my view of the main sheet/traveler unless I move forward of the helm to look up through the clear portion of the bimini.

 

[Jackdaw]

Jackdaw, my boat does indeed have a traveler and I use it exactly as you describe in your note. In a sense, moving the traveler closer to the boom acts in a similar fashion to my boomvang by flattening the sail. I believe this is what you described in your explanation.
My question was to Pateco (not that I don't like your input as it does agree with my understanding), and to his assertion that moving the traveler changes weatherhelm by changing where the force of the main is applied to the boat. This was intriguing and I wanted to understand it more.

Moving the traveler closer to the boom? I don't understand what you mean. Pulling the boom closer to the traveler is done with the MAINSHEET, not the traveler control.

Pateco's comments were rather straightforward and addressed by my original reply to you; lowering the traveler to lower the Angle of Attack (AOA) of the main leaves it in general trim but depowers it. That will reduce weather helm.

 

[danstanford]

Sorry for not being clear. If the boom is 30 degrees off center line and you move the traveler from centered to 20 degrees off centerline you have moved the traveler closer to the boom assuming the sheet was pulled in to maintain the angle of the boom. As I see it, this pulls down on the boom (in a vertical plane) flattening the sail, depowering it as you note.

I was simply trying to understand what Pateco was saying which is different than this as far as I can tell. I am not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand the comment " Shifting the traveler from one side to the other effects where the main's force is being applied to the stern of your boat."

 

[Stu Jackson]

Sorry for not being clear. If the boom is 30 degrees off center line and you move the traveler from centered to 20 degrees off centerline you have moved the traveler closer to the boom assuming the sheet was pulled in to maintain the angle of the boom. As I see it, this pulls down on the boom (in a vertical plane) flattening the sail, depowering it as you note.

I don't understand why moving the traveler has anything to do with the mainsheet. You move one or the other, but not both if you're just moving the traveler.

The traveler changes the angle of attack. That's all.

 

[danstanford]

Wow Guys, I must really be making this confusing. Let me try again.
In this example we are assuming that the process is aimed at changing the amount of weather helm. I am presuming that we want the boom to stay where it is so both the traveler and the sheet must be adjusted, don't they? Assuming we want to de-power the main as a method to affect the weather helm of course.
It seems to me that Jackdaw and I are having a vehement agreement and that is just fine with me. I am just trying to figure out if I have a big misunderstanding about how the traveler location acts on the boat.
Sorry for any confusion, I am just trying to get a little smarter is all! Dan