Observation

Jackdaw · Aug 27, 2015

Interesting. But first some observations.

As a sailor you should always express speeds in knots, not MPH. And express angles always off the bow. That way we are all taking the same lingo!

If the apparent wind was 35 degrees off the transom, that translates to 145 off the bow. That actually is a really deep reach, with 10 knots breeze the true angle being closer to 150. That might be the first clue.

Its possible you main was not far enough out, and was just blanketing your jib. The key thing to do is to be ALWAYS BE WATCHING YOUR TELLTAILS. If people would simply remember that you position the sails so all the telltails fly, we would not need books on sail trim. Sorry Don!! ;^)

Another clue, if trimming you main to center-line unblanketed your jib, you were REALLY deep.

Unanswerable is why the other boat was sailing like this. It if WAS a J22, in 10 knots they would easily catch you in almost any sail configuration. They are quick little boats. But why did they do that with the main? Its not the fastest thing to do.

Boats often go downwind under just headsail, in particular in a decent breeze like you had. In the Med they call it sailing 'Catalan', for the region around Barcelona. But its normally done with the main down, and not weathervaned back into the breeze. So that's a big unknown.

The good news that you are watching, asking questions, and learning. You'll be great at this in no time at all!

All U Get · Aug 27, 2015

When I bought Don's book he had a chart for running down wind showing best velocities at each angle. I believe it was a download. I've made use of it because it made sense to me. I've seen more complicated versions but I learn more like you, by observations. (Sometimes it a revelation)

All U Get

LakeOntario270 · Aug 28, 2015

I have been trying to improve my speed on a beam reach by looking for articles on the internet and You Tube and I have come to the conclusion the only course people sail is close hauled up wind. That said, I have found moving the boom in or out can change speed a half a knot even though the tell tales are flying perfectly (everyone tells you to watch the tell tales). One of the things I have learned is to carefully watch is how much weather helm I have. By adjusting the boom to minimize weather helm gives one more visual indicator for setting the sails.

Jackdaw · Aug 28, 2015

flynhi4u said:
Been pondering why sailing downwind with just the head sail may be more efficient than with both the head and main.
Could it have to do with the main sail's force being applied to boom which would in turn act like a lever that would tend to push the bow of the boat into the water? Where as if you are just being pulled along with the head sail that is exerting it's force on the bow of the boat some what lifting the bow up out of the water which then in turn reduces the parasitic drag by reducing the amount of hull in contact with the water?
Got a head cold and could not sleep last night. Too much time to sit and ponder the mysteries of life LOL

Sam in IN

The simple answer is that it is not. Its often just more convenient, and if the breeze is up, its likely almost as fast as the boat approaches hull speed. Hauling the main out far enough to be effective leaves the boat open to an accidental crash jibe, and not letting it out far enough makes for an inefficient sail plan that is likely slower than just the headsail.

Jackdaw · Aug 28, 2015

flynhi4u said:
Thanks Jack. Gotcha on knots and degrees off the bow. I knew I was reaching for an answer with the info provided.
Our main does not have tell tails but our new one will. Having been a commercial pilot for almost 30 years now I am amazed how little about a airfoil transfers to sailing. There is so much more capability to adjust a sail versus the wing of a plan. The wright brothers with their wing wrapping would be about the closest.
That said, is there a set angle of sail that the main stops pulling the boat along with lift from the sail and the sail starts to push the boat on a reach?
Thanks for all the info and help.

Sam in In

Sam,

Its really hard to set sails without telltales. The big reason is that the apparent wind direction constantly changes with the boats course and the wind speed. And what is right for one boat will likely be wrong for another.

Last night we had a race in light airs. Going downwind (True wind angle 150) the apparent wind was pushed so far forward that the main was almost on the centerline. The trick as always is to set the sail to its telltails.

To answer the question about a 'set angle', that does happen but not at a set angle. Remember that the boat moving forward pushed the apparent wind forward, so the faster you go vs the wind, the farther the wind moves forward, and keeps the sails acting like a wing and not a barn door.

If you're a pilot the best analogy would be the effect of head or tailwind on takeoffs/landings. The setting for flaps etc is based on the speed of the wind over the wing, and not the planes speed over ground.

Jackdaw · Aug 28, 2015

flynhi4u said:
Having never used tell tales before is there somewhere online I can get a crash course? Which side of the sail in regards to windward or the Lee side provide the best information when it comes to sett the sails?
So much to learn and such a short sailing season to learn it in...

Sam in IN

Like I mentioned the goal is to get them all streaming back. The two tricks:

1) Where to place them for best effect
2) How to trim or stream when they are NOT streaming back

Many books and web pages have been written to answer this, also the patron of the forum has written on it and has many fans. His quick ref card might be very handy.

http://shop.sailboatowners.com/prod.php?51997/

Don Guillette · Aug 28, 2015

Jackdaw:What caught my attention was you're note telling sailors to use nautical terms. I run into this problem all the time dealing with newbie sailors -- they're my most favorite group of folks because I don't want them to go through what I went through to learn how to sail a silly sailboat.

Anyway, they constantly ask me why I can't use common terms like left side/right side, front/back -- anything other than windward/leeward etc. I start out answering their question by telling them that's our lingo!! Just like in bike racing (peloton), golf (par), tennis (love), football (clip), Cunningham (a man's name), knot (MPH) and so on. I tell them I don't know why it is -- it's just that way. I tell them they need to keep a GLOSSARY handy and soon they'll be talking like the rest of us!!

Kermit · Aug 28, 2015

I find that talking nautical is helpful. Port is always the boat's left side. But left can mean right depending on which way you're facing. I've had that happen when a boat owner didn't speak nautical. I swear it helps. But you have to know it.

Siamese · Aug 28, 2015

Stick with "miles per hour". That's what applies on a lake. I sail lakes, too. Lake Michigan mostly, and our charts are in "statute miles", not knots, hence the use of miles per hour to describe your speed.

I live on a channel off lake michigan, and thousand foot ore boats routinely pass my front porch. They may look like ships, but they're not. They're boats, because they're on a lake. And, their speed is measured in mph.

Jackdaw · Aug 28, 2015

Siamese said:
Stick with "miles per hour". That's what applies on a lake. I sail lakes, too. Lake Michigan mostly, and our charts are in "statute miles", not knots, hence the use of miles per hour to describe your speed.

I live on a channel off lake michigan, and thousand foot ore boats routinely pass my front porch. They may look like ships, but they're not. They're boats, because they're on a lake. And, their speed is measured in mph.

Reasonable point about Great Lakes paper charts.

But unless you're sailing ambitions point at playing ore boat, go with knots. Indeed, try and find ANY serious discussion or documentation about SAILING that uses MPH. I'll wait.

Wet_Feet · Aug 28, 2015

Jackdaw said:
Another clue, if trimming you main to center-line unblanketed your jib, you were REALLY deep.

Unanswerable is why the other boat was sailing like this. It if WAS a J22, in 10 knots they would easily catch you in almost any sail configuration. They are quick little boats. But why did they do that with the main? Its not the fastest thing to do.

Boats often go downwind under just headsail, in particular in a decent breeze like you had. In the Med they call it sailing 'Catalan', for the region around Barcelona. But its normally done with the main down, and not weathervaned back into the breeze. So that's a big unknown.

I'm a noob as well and one of the things I have found when sailing our 26X (during the 4 times I've had it under sail) on a broad reach or a run, is I don't like how the main sail leans against the spreaders when it is let out that far so tend to trim it in to probably a less than optimal angle which probably blankets the jib so, maybe better off hauling it all the way in?Perhaps that could be the "why"...although I would think if you were planning to use just the jib, the 'Catalan' set up with the Main down would be best....perhaps it was just laziness or anticipation of a course change? We had some trouble getting our main up and tight (not sure if the upper slugs are binding) so our baggy sail may exacerbate our problems with spreader contact.

Jackdaw said:
The key thing to do is to be ALWAYS BE WATCHING YOUR TELLTAILS. If people would simply remember that you position the sails so all the telltails fly, we would not need books on sail trim. Sorry Don!! ;^)

As far as keeping the tells flying, I can picture this all the way from close hauled to a beam reach but once the wind gets behind you, I have a hard time envisioning this on a broad reach.

(Don't worry Don, I will probably still need your book

)

My list of things I want to try next time I'm out is growing exponentially.

Jackdaw · Aug 29, 2015

Wet_Feet said:
I'm a noob as well and one of the things I have found when sailing our 26X (during the 4 times I've had it under sail) on a broad reach or a run, is I don't like how the main sail leans against the spreaders when it is let out that far so tend to trim it in to probably a less than optimal angle which probably blankets the jib so, maybe better off hauling it all the way in?Perhaps that could be the "why"...although I would think if you were planning to use just the jib, the 'Catalan' set up with the Main down would be best....perhaps it was just laziness or anticipation of a course change? We had some trouble getting our main up and tight (not sure if the upper slugs are binding) so our baggy sail may exacerbate our problems with spreader contact.

As far as keeping the tells flying, I can picture this all the way from close hauled to a beam reach but once the wind gets behind you, I have a hard time envisioning this on a broad reach. (Don't worry Don, I will probably still need your book)

My list of things I want to try next time I'm out is growing exponentially.

Your right, a baggy sail will hit the spreaders much sooner that one with good shape.

But also make sure to add vang. As you ease the main, the boom rises. That add twist (and a ton of 'shape').

Again correct, once you get so deep that the sail acts as a 'barn door ' , tell tails go out the window. In breeze sometimes that is faster depending on the boat.

Don Guillette · Aug 29, 2015

As far as port and starboard, Cindy has never been able to tell left from right, unless she is facing east, don't ask. So she struggled at first with port and starboard till she realized it never changes. While she still has a misstep every now and then she does much better with port and starboard than she does left and right. Talk about a handicap LOL

flynhi4u: During my first days of learning to sail I also had a the same handicap as Cindy. The sailing instructor would ask me about port tack/starboard tack and I'd have to think - port has 4 letters and so does the word left. He told me I wasn't quick enough with the answer. One day I arrived at the boat before him and I marked a small "P" and a small "S" on the end of the boom. From that point on he couldn't believe how fast I became with my answers!!

Wet_Feet · Aug 29, 2015

I always found "There's no Red Port Left" to be very helpful when trying to remember....Port of course also being a type of wine. This gets all three Relations as your Port nav lights are also red.