And don't fight with the folks who are trying to help you, whether you like the answers or not is NOT the issue.
Novice needing knowledge
- Thread starter Wasp77
- Start date
The problem is that you asked a specific question expecting a specific answer when there isn't a specific answer to your question. While some of us have a budget that we may try to keep, I suspect most of us don't keep track of our expenses to the level of specificity that you are asking.
Most of the regulars here are sailors who day sail and cruise. Most of us are not live aboard sailors who are cruising the world. As someone else mentioned Cruisersforum.com has a broader reach and more folks who are actively cruising. I will warn you though, if you ask the question you asked here, you may find less friendly answers.
A question you might want to ask is what type of expenses should I be prepared for?
Since I can't answer your question I can only try to help you get a answer to it by guiding you to a place that will help you. I don't know if you listen to podcasts at all but there is a gentleman who interviews liveaboards and most of them are circumnavigators. He asks them about their costs in detail on most episodes as well as all about their travels and what led them to sailing the world. The podcast is called The Sail Loot podcast https://www.sailloot.com . I enjoy the episodes and I feel like you will get all the answers you need by just listening them.
Dude, you are out of your league socially to not be trolled merclessly on a public free speech forum. You seek advice from very successful, knowledgeable, competent posters. You offer a rambling post thats hard to read completly, and expect the world to respect your time? What are you offering to this forum?
If you scan sailnet and cruiser forum youll find the answer is...how much do you have.
Google cruising on $500 a month.
The short "answer" is: forget it; you probably cannot afford it at this time and apparently are not ready. It costs what it costs. Boat up-keep is expensive, especially if it's 40 ft or more; no escaping it. Any sort of highly-budgeted, minimalist approach to sailing/cruising will likely fail, at least for the rank novice. What crew "A", "B" or "C" can do it on might prove little indication of what crew "D" will need. If you want to do something, you do it and make it work out. Yet, it's totally naïve to think you're going to spend ???? days at sea per year when frankly, I doubt you even know your susceptibility to sea sickness. One step at a time. Geeze. Perhaps, go sit atop a mountain if you wish to drop out of society.
Some relevant issues related to "what it costs" answers. Do you own the boat free and clear or have a mortgage? Is it in good shape or poor? Will you be motoring a lot (diesel $$$) and do you know how to sail? Where will you take paid moorage? Will you have a water maker? Will you have pet(s)? Will you take a complete supply of parts and tools, or fly them in as needed? And it goes on and on. What if you lose a set of ground tackle? What if you go aground? What if your sails rip out? What if you have to "move on" when you are not ready?, etc.
Some relevant issues related to "what it costs" answers. Do you own the boat free and clear or have a mortgage? Is it in good shape or poor? Will you be motoring a lot (diesel $$$) and do you know how to sail? Where will you take paid moorage? Will you have a water maker? Will you have pet(s)? Will you take a complete supply of parts and tools, or fly them in as needed? And it goes on and on. What if you lose a set of ground tackle? What if you go aground? What if your sails rip out? What if you have to "move on" when you are not ready?, etc.
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First: You will need to modify your "dealing with idiots" by having a heart-to-heart intervention with the person who watches you shave in the morning. The people on this forum will offer their experiences and knowledge quite readily, but then you need to privately digest what they shared. Sadly, sometimes you (and we) just don't know what you (we) don't know.
Second: Being "open to suggestions by experienced sailors" does not belong in the same sentence or conversation as "spit fire to anyone telling me I can't do something". From your original post you don't have very much, if any, sailing experience. You will probably find that the romantic idea of sailing will be lost quickly during the first storm you experience while you are in control (or not) of your dream vessel. Perhaps starting out a bit more humble would be useful. Mother Nature can and will humble any of us in the blink of an eye!
Third: Go to that ASA course as soon as possible. Get onto as many types of boats as possible. Each has different sailing characteristics. Sail with your friends...….or make friends with people who sail. Learning by experience will help you determine your next sailing choices and boat requirements. There are no universal answers to sailing, and determining an average cost won't allow for several unexpected high amounts in close succession.
Some sail as if they are camping out, caring not at all about being comfortable in their home on the water, at anchor or underway, and others sleep on satin sheets, have a kitchen any gourmet chef would approve of, eating filet mignon 4 times a week. Some sail with a lot of electronics and gizmos of all sorts (refrigeration, watermaker, air conditioning, trash compactors, electric windlasses and winches and a whole bunch of hank on sails to suit the conditions). Others have a chart, a compass, and a sextant. No Roocna anchor, mostly a line rode and choose their boat equipment by the price.
There are no guidelines, generalities or norms in this lifestyle. There are only the costs of what any individual cares to spend to live this way, on the boat, how it is equipped, maintained and how they choose to live.
But basically, living on a boat will cost you pretty much the same living on land did, if you don't change your way of life a great deal. If you were living in your car or under an overpass, you'll probably get a small, uncomfortable boat and get by just as you did living in your car. If you lived in a mansion in Beverly Hills, you will probably buy a big, expensive boat with all the bells and whistles, which will cost as much to maintain as did your hillside mansion.
If you are looking for a general budget, first you will have to determine how you want to live on your boat, then where you want to live (some countries have very expensive fees, others not so much, but few if any are free these days) and finally how much gear you want to maintain. I believe the common thought is that a couple cruising a modest 42' boat can live fairly comfortably on 25 to 30k a year. Much less than 20 and you'll be declining invites to join the other cruisers for a weekly meal ashore together, sitting on your boat alone. Eventually, the invites will cease and you will miss out on opportunities to discuss aspects and solutions to problems of this lifestyle that others with more experience may have to offer you.
Unless you are one of the very few like Bernard Moitessier, I think you will find it very difficult to be as insular as you say you want to be, in a lifestyle you are unfamiliar with.
There are no guidelines, generalities or norms in this lifestyle. There are only the costs of what any individual cares to spend to live this way, on the boat, how it is equipped, maintained and how they choose to live.
But basically, living on a boat will cost you pretty much the same living on land did, if you don't change your way of life a great deal. If you were living in your car or under an overpass, you'll probably get a small, uncomfortable boat and get by just as you did living in your car. If you lived in a mansion in Beverly Hills, you will probably buy a big, expensive boat with all the bells and whistles, which will cost as much to maintain as did your hillside mansion.
If you are looking for a general budget, first you will have to determine how you want to live on your boat, then where you want to live (some countries have very expensive fees, others not so much, but few if any are free these days) and finally how much gear you want to maintain. I believe the common thought is that a couple cruising a modest 42' boat can live fairly comfortably on 25 to 30k a year. Much less than 20 and you'll be declining invites to join the other cruisers for a weekly meal ashore together, sitting on your boat alone. Eventually, the invites will cease and you will miss out on opportunities to discuss aspects and solutions to problems of this lifestyle that others with more experience may have to offer you.
Unless you are one of the very few like Bernard Moitessier, I think you will find it very difficult to be as insular as you say you want to be, in a lifestyle you are unfamiliar with.
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Frankly, for me, it has been an unexpected experience discovering the degree to which "sailing" and "cruising" are largely alternate social settings away from "regular life." Their own diverse social communities of experienced and inexperienced, affluent and less than affluent, workers and vacationers, old and young, popular and unpopular, well educated and less well educated, skilled and unskilled, and it goes on, etc. There's no real escape there for the misanthropes. Nobody just sails round and round the world 300 days/yr. Even Moitessier dropped off at Tahiti for a while.
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This part is really funny.
Sorry, didn't realize that I couldn't take care of other business while waiting for people to criticize me. Out of all of these replies, only a couple answered my actual question (for which I am very thankful). The rest of you are just being tools. How is it so difficult to understand that I want hear personal experiences on a specific subject and not what I should expect? The answer from Capta saying that it'll cost about the same as what I typically spend now was helpful, thank you. It wasn't what I asked, but still very helpful.
I've been told that boaters are typically a friendly bunch (even read that in a forum post here), but most of you are showing me that you're a bunch of jerks and idiots, and further my reasons for wanting to escape people. Seriously, how hard is it to answer such a simple question?
For those few that are sincerely trying to help, I apologise for this rant. But, the plurality of people responding are either tools, or need this SIMPLE question to be broken down Barney style, which I don't have the patience to do.
I've been told that boaters are typically a friendly bunch (even read that in a forum post here), but most of you are showing me that you're a bunch of jerks and idiots, and further my reasons for wanting to escape people. Seriously, how hard is it to answer such a simple question?
For those few that are sincerely trying to help, I apologise for this rant. But, the plurality of people responding are either tools, or need this SIMPLE question to be broken down Barney style, which I don't have the patience to do.
Wasp77,
I spent my 10th thru 14th years living on a 56' sailboat. I don't know any specific costs and I'm sure they would be quite different in the 70's anyhow. My father always said it was cheap.
Your experience with people, especially the sailors on this forum are going to be exactly like the expenses you have as a live-aboard, they will be up to you. No one has yet fully explained properly why they answer the way they have. Please allow me to help fill in some of the gaps.
You are aggressive. From your very first post you charge in and threaten. Frankly, I'm a little surprised you got responses. I saw your post before you had any answers and choose not to respond because of how you came across.
There are opinionated and straight forward members on this forum. Some of them are supremely confident in their knowledge and don't mince words about it. It can be difficult, but I find it refreshing to interact with people who don't hold back and let me know when I'm full of $#!t. I have certainly had my differences with a few of my fellow members, but not one of them has offered to attack me before I responded, nor has attacked me personally in the way you are doing to the general SBO population.
Be patient, be open and attempt to put yourself in the other person's chair, most of all, be respectful for the amazing class of people that are on this forum and you will find yourself welcome with open arms.
If you this is not an attitude you can take, I hope you great success in your endeavors to get onto a sailboat and sail the world as you wish.
- Will (Dragonfly)
I spent my 10th thru 14th years living on a 56' sailboat. I don't know any specific costs and I'm sure they would be quite different in the 70's anyhow. My father always said it was cheap.
Your experience with people, especially the sailors on this forum are going to be exactly like the expenses you have as a live-aboard, they will be up to you. No one has yet fully explained properly why they answer the way they have. Please allow me to help fill in some of the gaps.
You are aggressive. From your very first post you charge in and threaten. Frankly, I'm a little surprised you got responses. I saw your post before you had any answers and choose not to respond because of how you came across.
There are opinionated and straight forward members on this forum. Some of them are supremely confident in their knowledge and don't mince words about it. It can be difficult, but I find it refreshing to interact with people who don't hold back and let me know when I'm full of $#!t. I have certainly had my differences with a few of my fellow members, but not one of them has offered to attack me before I responded, nor has attacked me personally in the way you are doing to the general SBO population.
Be patient, be open and attempt to put yourself in the other person's chair, most of all, be respectful for the amazing class of people that are on this forum and you will find yourself welcome with open arms.
If you this is not an attitude you can take, I hope you great success in your endeavors to get onto a sailboat and sail the world as you wish.
- Will (Dragonfly)
Will Gilmore,
I can't thank you enough for you candor. Although I don't fully see how I came across as aggressive from the beginning, I do understand that others may feel that way. With this, I apologize to everyone, and will ask to allow me to come at this with a different approach. I understand that no two people are alike, and that every experience is different. My goal is to find out what those differences are on personal levels. I am not asking for personal information, or exact figures. But, I do want to know individual experiences. Perhaps this will help (please feel free to add anything that I miss, which will be a lot):
1. Size of your vessel:
2. Average cost that you pay insurance:
3. Approximate average time that you spend under way:
4. Average cost of your fuel:
5. Average approximate cost that you pay for mooring (I understand that it varies from place to place):
6. Average approximate cost that you spend on food:
7. Average approximate cost for your supplies:
8. Frequency and cost of purchasing new lines for your boat:
9. Frequency and cost of purchasing new sails for your boat, and what sails you have:
10. Frequency and cost of reconditioning new sails for your boat:
11. Frequency and cost of repainting bottom of your boat:
12. Frequency and cost of repainting top of your boat:
Add anything that I have missed, please.
Again, I apologize if I seemed too abrasive from the start. It's not that I'm a d!ck, I'm just jaded.
I can't thank you enough for you candor. Although I don't fully see how I came across as aggressive from the beginning, I do understand that others may feel that way. With this, I apologize to everyone, and will ask to allow me to come at this with a different approach. I understand that no two people are alike, and that every experience is different. My goal is to find out what those differences are on personal levels. I am not asking for personal information, or exact figures. But, I do want to know individual experiences. Perhaps this will help (please feel free to add anything that I miss, which will be a lot):
1. Size of your vessel:
2. Average cost that you pay insurance:
3. Approximate average time that you spend under way:
4. Average cost of your fuel:
5. Average approximate cost that you pay for mooring (I understand that it varies from place to place):
6. Average approximate cost that you spend on food:
7. Average approximate cost for your supplies:
8. Frequency and cost of purchasing new lines for your boat:
9. Frequency and cost of purchasing new sails for your boat, and what sails you have:
10. Frequency and cost of reconditioning new sails for your boat:
11. Frequency and cost of repainting bottom of your boat:
12. Frequency and cost of repainting top of your boat:
Add anything that I have missed, please.
Again, I apologize if I seemed too abrasive from the start. It's not that I'm a d!ck, I'm just jaded.
The absolute most help, thank you. I have done similar searches before, but I suppose my wording wasn't right as the only answer that I've ever found is "it depends on what you do." While that's true, it doesn't help in the slightest. It's like asking, "What did you eat for dinner?" and getting an answer of, "It depends on which restaurant you go to."
If your plans are to sail the world and visit other regions countries and cultures, the most important skills you can acquire are people skills, especially skills in not coming across in an arrogant, demanding, and insulting manner.
Listen more, speak less.
Especially by those who have done it or are doing it at this time.This part is really funny.
Again, this information just isn't so black and white.
On my circumnavigation, I began sailing the SoPac on a 65' gaff ketch built in 1909. After 5.5 years I switched to a 37' multihull. Obviously, the operational costs were completely different. Personal expenses may have remained about the same, but considering the multihull ate up much less of our income, we probably spent more on fun things.
There is a cruiser who posts his monthly expenses right down to the penny on a forum, but I doubt you are going to get too many who will take the time going through their records to answer your complex itemized list. You can't be angry that folks don't want to invest that sort of time and energy in answering your question in so much depth when this subject has been covered so many times in the past on every sailing forum.
It all depends is the only honest answer you are going to get when there is a book out there on cruising on $500.00 a month and others blogging about their voyaging costing $35,000.00 a year.
We are a charter boat (we got bored just cruising), so our expenses would be of little value to you, even though we obviously have pretty good records. Other folks are commuter cruisers and still others are full time retired liveaboard cruisers who do very little sailing.
If you are trying to put together a plan for cruising from what you learn here, then it will be unique to you and your needs, and as prices are continually rising, the information you get today may have little relevance to a cruise 5 years down the road.
1. Say 40 ft
2. $500 to $1200/yr depending on local region and company. Rates higher in tropical areas due to major wind storms and lightening strikes, but in any event--a global wandering policy would be the most expensive.
3. You'll be lucky to make 150 n.mi./24 hours, so you figure.
4. Most sail boaters put around 100-120 h/yr on the diesel coastal cruising. A 39 hp diesel burns 0.5 -1 gal/hr x $4.00/gal = you figure.
5. Figure no less than $1.00/ft/night for transients at a dock. Thus, at least $40/d for a 40 ft boat in the States and Canada. In Long Beach, it's now about $1.40/ft/night; in Newport Harbor it's over $2.00/ft/night. Mooring balls are usually quite a bit less in remote areas, but then you need a dink. However, a mooring at Catalina Island is the same as dockside in Long Beach.
6. Lines last 10 to 15 yr, or more, if you take care of them. Cost varies as to diameter, length and type of cordage. A full new set of running rigging for a 40 ft boat would likely cost $500 to $800.
7. About whatever you spend now, assuming you do not go out to eat much more. But in any event, beans, rice, pasta, veggies and fruit are cheap. Most of what you'll eat will be from canned (preserved) and dried goods if away from shore (services) more than 2-3 wk at a time. So go price out a selection then multiply by the appropriate time interval.
8. Needs definition
9. Sails can last at least 10 yr even for the active coastal cruiser, but that is based on not that many d/yr at sea. UV kills sails. For somebody who is underway a lot, I'd guess every two years. For new replacements, figure around $5,000 for mainsail; $2,500-$3,500 for a headsail depending on its size. Most cruising boats carry one mainsail and maybe two headsails and/or a cruising chute of some design; also around $3-5 grand. Replacing w/ used sails can knock it down 50 to 60% depending on remaining useful life but you'd have to replace them more frequently.
10. Could be yearly for active cruising. Figure labor at $100/h minimum these days plus parts if you take it to a loft. Some folks have their own set up aboard for sail repair.
11. Figure every 2 yr at minimally $2,000/bottom job assuming there are no repairs to the bottom that have to be made. That's just hauling and painting. Some places allow you to do it yourself; but it does not come out much better b/c you have to pay for the haul-out, buy materials from the yard, and to use the yard (lay-days) @ minimally $100 to $150/d. It's $190 in Long Beach.
12. Almost never unless damaged.
Too much to list exhaustively--engine up keep (oil change every 100-150 hr; fuel filters, & impellers), auto pilot purchase/up-keep, hardware replacements (broken blocks), ground tackle replacement if lost ($300-$400), batteries replacement ($500 to $1,000) and up-keep, specialized tools, navigation equipment (GPS & chart sets), replacing stuff that falls overboard (winch handles, eyeglasses, shackles--you name it), tender and outboard up-keep ($200/yr avg), dodger & Bimini repairs, cost of sacrificial anodes ($100/yr or more), regular bottom cleaning if using a service ($45/mo), maintenance (regular purchase) of required safety equipment such as flares, cost and maintenance of a life-raft if you have one ($2,000 to $3,000 to buy if four man; $750-800/3yr to service), radar repair, etc.
Also, weather service if you need one, a weather fax aboard, sat phone or HAM, water maker if you need one, and more, etc.
I once saw a boat named: Capital Punishment, and that is what it is.
Oh, and by the way, if a 50-ft boat many of the costs detailed above go up by a power. That is, if $5,000 for mainsail on a 40 ft boat, it's not 50/40 x $5000 = $6,200 for 50 ft. It's more like $5,000 x (10 ft exp. 0.5) = $15,800.
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The interesting thing is, you don’t get to make that call. The people you interact with do.