Just a quick question to find out if I'm the only neurotic sailor out there. It is our policy that at night, especially off shore, everybody wears either a life jacket with attached light or harness while in the cock pit. My wife and I have our own inflatable/harness's and use them during these conditions or foul weather. I have sailed on other boats where the owner/captain said it was not needed since his boat was so safe (41 and 51 foot boats). Having been a paramedic for the last fifteen years I've noticed that human stupidity is job security for me and I'm determined not to become some paramedic's story of yet another idiot-in-action. What do others do while off shore at night? Which court do you people fall into, the neurotic sailor or the happy-go-lucky sailor?
- Status
Safety First
After dark, even in clear, calm weather, anyone out of the cabin is REQUIRED to have a properly fitted inflatable vest on. We bought them for that purpose, and they aren't uncomfortable to wear. All are outfitted with lights, whistles, and other safety items. NO EXCEPTIONS, even for "just a minute."
After dark, even in clear, calm weather, anyone out of the cabin is REQUIRED to have a properly fitted inflatable vest on. We bought them for that purpose, and they aren't uncomfortable to wear. All are outfitted with lights, whistles, and other safety items. NO EXCEPTIONS, even for "just a minute."
There are old sailors
However, there are no old, bold sailors! Flying Dutchman (with apologies to the IAAP)
However, there are no old, bold sailors! Flying Dutchman (with apologies to the IAAP)
Common sense
There's NO such thing as a totally safe boat in a blow -- except maybe one lashed to a pier while you are home safe and sound! Common sense reigns supreme in matters of Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS). One misstep or a zig of the boat when you are in the middle of a zag can dump you overboard and even if the boat is traveling at a tranquil 2-3 knots, you'd be surprised how fast it can get away from you! I have stood many, many solo bluewater watches in the middle of the night and I always clip into the boat with a safety harneess. If you have to move on deck, clip into the "lifelines" and remember, one hand for you, one hand for the boat. Also, wear good non-skid boat shoes or sneakers. The bare foot provides insufficient grip and, besides, wrap a little toe around a cleat or deck fitting and find out what sailing is like while crippled! I would recommend, at least, a safety harness for night and possible even a pair of SOS inflatable PFD suspenders with a safety harness. Your friend who scoffs at bare-minimum safety precautions is not being very prudent or, in my opinion, very responsible.
There's NO such thing as a totally safe boat in a blow -- except maybe one lashed to a pier while you are home safe and sound! Common sense reigns supreme in matters of Safety of Life at Sea (SOLAS). One misstep or a zig of the boat when you are in the middle of a zag can dump you overboard and even if the boat is traveling at a tranquil 2-3 knots, you'd be surprised how fast it can get away from you! I have stood many, many solo bluewater watches in the middle of the night and I always clip into the boat with a safety harneess. If you have to move on deck, clip into the "lifelines" and remember, one hand for you, one hand for the boat. Also, wear good non-skid boat shoes or sneakers. The bare foot provides insufficient grip and, besides, wrap a little toe around a cleat or deck fitting and find out what sailing is like while crippled! I would recommend, at least, a safety harness for night and possible even a pair of SOS inflatable PFD suspenders with a safety harness. Your friend who scoffs at bare-minimum safety precautions is not being very prudent or, in my opinion, very responsible.
Safety
I agree with the last post. Besides what you are already doing, you should consider clipping on. Around here, San Francisco, the water is very cold and normal seas can be 6-8 feet with 25 knots. Thats on a good day. As a paramedic you kbow how quickly hypothermia can kill you. When was the last time your wife did solo MOB drills in those conditions. If you go over, even with a PFD, it will be no drill. Outside the Golden Gate, our rule is that you are clipped on whenever outside the cabin, no exceptions. PFD's are worn, strobe, and I've even been know to slip a VHF and/or an EPIRB in my pocket if I'm out there alone at night on watch. That way they can at least find the body. I don't think you are paranoid. Because you don't require anyone, including yourself to clip on, you are actually an optimist. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
I agree with the last post. Besides what you are already doing, you should consider clipping on. Around here, San Francisco, the water is very cold and normal seas can be 6-8 feet with 25 knots. Thats on a good day. As a paramedic you kbow how quickly hypothermia can kill you. When was the last time your wife did solo MOB drills in those conditions. If you go over, even with a PFD, it will be no drill. Outside the Golden Gate, our rule is that you are clipped on whenever outside the cabin, no exceptions. PFD's are worn, strobe, and I've even been know to slip a VHF and/or an EPIRB in my pocket if I'm out there alone at night on watch. That way they can at least find the body. I don't think you are paranoid. Because you don't require anyone, including yourself to clip on, you are actually an optimist. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
I Wonder
I wonder why it is that when a question like this comes up everyone says they *always* take these precautions and yet when out on the Chesapeake I seldom see *anyone* who does? Few wear pfds and even fewer even have any means to clip in, let alone actually do it. I know that I do not always wear a pfd at night (depends on conditions). Maybe I should, but I strongly believe that I am still far more likely to die in my car than in the bay. Note: I am not saying it isn't a good idea, just that more people don't than do. Offshore the balance would shift toward wearing a pfd, but probably still not the majority unless the weather is iffy. Pete
I wonder why it is that when a question like this comes up everyone says they *always* take these precautions and yet when out on the Chesapeake I seldom see *anyone* who does? Few wear pfds and even fewer even have any means to clip in, let alone actually do it. I know that I do not always wear a pfd at night (depends on conditions). Maybe I should, but I strongly believe that I am still far more likely to die in my car than in the bay. Note: I am not saying it isn't a good idea, just that more people don't than do. Offshore the balance would shift toward wearing a pfd, but probably still not the majority unless the weather is iffy. Pete
I guess I draw a distinction between a bay/river
and the ocean. Motoring/sailing on the St Johns River at night I rarely wear a PFD, maybe I should but I don't. Might be flirting with disaster there. Out in the ocean, I wouldn't dream of having someone on deck without being in a harness with an inflatable PFD and snapped in at night or in a fair sea. I guess its a comfort level thing, I tend to feel comfortable in the river and maybe don't take all of the precautions I should at night.
and the ocean. Motoring/sailing on the St Johns River at night I rarely wear a PFD, maybe I should but I don't. Might be flirting with disaster there. Out in the ocean, I wouldn't dream of having someone on deck without being in a harness with an inflatable PFD and snapped in at night or in a fair sea. I guess its a comfort level thing, I tend to feel comfortable in the river and maybe don't take all of the precautions I should at night.
With an inflatable belt jacket
I sail at night with an inflatatable belt jacket and a light, if alone I clip to the arch.
I sail at night with an inflatatable belt jacket and a light, if alone I clip to the arch.
Wear it !
Two years ago with many skilled seamen on board, a man was lost over board on a large sailing yacht sailing the Lighthouse race at night in Erie PA. The boom jibed unexpectedly and over he went, NO LIFE JACKET, THE CREW COULD NOT KEEP HIM IN SIGHT. He was removed from the beach 4 days later. If you sail with inexperienced crew, single handed, or even with an experienced crew, wear the pfd. The crew must keep you in sight. An inexperienced crew would not know to do this. An experienced crew has enough to do with getting the boat turned around. I raced that race on another boat that had it's own problems. However because of that, I will not sail during the day singlehanded without a PFD. Most of my crews are inexperienced and if I would go over I know it would be a long time before I would get picked up. If I am crewing with children on board, I make it known to the captain that if a child goes over board I will follow. If you sail with children.... you, the crew, and the children should wear pfd's. There is never time when emergencies happen to get prepared. I think it is much better to be prepared. Steven, no I don't think you are over doing it. By the way I do have an opinion on this subject. r.w.landau
Two years ago with many skilled seamen on board, a man was lost over board on a large sailing yacht sailing the Lighthouse race at night in Erie PA. The boom jibed unexpectedly and over he went, NO LIFE JACKET, THE CREW COULD NOT KEEP HIM IN SIGHT. He was removed from the beach 4 days later. If you sail with inexperienced crew, single handed, or even with an experienced crew, wear the pfd. The crew must keep you in sight. An inexperienced crew would not know to do this. An experienced crew has enough to do with getting the boat turned around. I raced that race on another boat that had it's own problems. However because of that, I will not sail during the day singlehanded without a PFD. Most of my crews are inexperienced and if I would go over I know it would be a long time before I would get picked up. If I am crewing with children on board, I make it known to the captain that if a child goes over board I will follow. If you sail with children.... you, the crew, and the children should wear pfd's. There is never time when emergencies happen to get prepared. I think it is much better to be prepared. Steven, no I don't think you are over doing it. By the way I do have an opinion on this subject. r.w.landau
Always a PFD, and
Always a harness clipped on if: - going forward in windy conditions, - sailing solo (this includes if the crew isn't qualified for the MOB drill), and - at night (when you can't see the gust coming.) We use inflatable PFD's for warm weather, but the full jacket type is needed for cold water in the spring on Lake Erie. Oh yeah, these rules apply to all on the boat at any time. David Lady Lillie
Always a harness clipped on if: - going forward in windy conditions, - sailing solo (this includes if the crew isn't qualified for the MOB drill), and - at night (when you can't see the gust coming.) We use inflatable PFD's for warm weather, but the full jacket type is needed for cold water in the spring on Lake Erie. Oh yeah, these rules apply to all on the boat at any time. David Lady Lillie
Relative Danger
A glance at the Coast Guard safety stats indicates that boating in general is a fairly dangerous activity with about 700 deaths in the year 2000. That is about 5.5 deaths per 100,000 registered craft. The vast majority of those were in boats in the 10'-18' range. Of those 700 only 14 involved sailboats and only 5 occurred while sailing. That sure seems to indicate that darn few folks are dying by falling out of sailboats. This in spite of the fact that the majority of the folks I see are not clipped in or wearing a PFD. So yes it is still a good idea to clip in and yes it is a good idea to wear a PFD. But it isn't a dangerous enough situation to get too preachy over. Especially for folks who take much greater risks elsewhere. Driving is probably more dangerous, as is not eating properly, smoking, drinking alcohol to excess, having unprotected sex, riding a bicycle, and a lot of other activities. Heck many folks jobs carry a substantially higher risk. I dare say that everyone who reads this does something that they don't give a thought to and is more dangerous than sailing at night during good weather without a PFD. My point isn't that you should skip the pfd or tether, just that someone who does isn't taking an extremely reckless chance. Pete
A glance at the Coast Guard safety stats indicates that boating in general is a fairly dangerous activity with about 700 deaths in the year 2000. That is about 5.5 deaths per 100,000 registered craft. The vast majority of those were in boats in the 10'-18' range. Of those 700 only 14 involved sailboats and only 5 occurred while sailing. That sure seems to indicate that darn few folks are dying by falling out of sailboats. This in spite of the fact that the majority of the folks I see are not clipped in or wearing a PFD. So yes it is still a good idea to clip in and yes it is a good idea to wear a PFD. But it isn't a dangerous enough situation to get too preachy over. Especially for folks who take much greater risks elsewhere. Driving is probably more dangerous, as is not eating properly, smoking, drinking alcohol to excess, having unprotected sex, riding a bicycle, and a lot of other activities. Heck many folks jobs carry a substantially higher risk. I dare say that everyone who reads this does something that they don't give a thought to and is more dangerous than sailing at night during good weather without a PFD. My point isn't that you should skip the pfd or tether, just that someone who does isn't taking an extremely reckless chance. Pete
Reckless
Pete, Don't think this really warrants a debate, but given the estemely different sailing conditions that the readers of this forum represent, the statements you make are just a little too general. I did not wear a PFD for day sailing in the British Virgins. I always wear one on San Francisco Bay and tether outside the Golden Gate. These situations represent significant differences in consequences if you go overboard. Readers of this forum, some who depend on the advice represented here, sail in far more extreme conditions. I suspect that sailors are better trained in general regarding MOB issues and that helps their satistics some. I also suspect the the more dangerous sailing acivities (like racing) include more consistent use of PFD's and tethers. Finally, the issue of extremely reckless can look very different when viewed from hindsight rather than statistics. Statistically, I agree with you...but I still put my seatbelt on (always) while driving to the boat and elsewhere, the fuel gauges in airplanes are usually pretty accurate, but I still look in the tank before I fly. For the price of a comfortable auto-inflate PFD, I'd prefer to survive a very survivable fall into the water. If I didn't survive because I did not have the PFD on, I think most people would say that I was not only "Extremely recless", but just plain old regular reckless. My thinking is that this is not a good place to suggest that non-use of a PFD is reasonable. You used "Coast Guard" statistics to augment your augument. Are there any Coast Guard members who would agree that non-use of PFD's anytime you are on the water is good advice? Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
Pete, Don't think this really warrants a debate, but given the estemely different sailing conditions that the readers of this forum represent, the statements you make are just a little too general. I did not wear a PFD for day sailing in the British Virgins. I always wear one on San Francisco Bay and tether outside the Golden Gate. These situations represent significant differences in consequences if you go overboard. Readers of this forum, some who depend on the advice represented here, sail in far more extreme conditions. I suspect that sailors are better trained in general regarding MOB issues and that helps their satistics some. I also suspect the the more dangerous sailing acivities (like racing) include more consistent use of PFD's and tethers. Finally, the issue of extremely reckless can look very different when viewed from hindsight rather than statistics. Statistically, I agree with you...but I still put my seatbelt on (always) while driving to the boat and elsewhere, the fuel gauges in airplanes are usually pretty accurate, but I still look in the tank before I fly. For the price of a comfortable auto-inflate PFD, I'd prefer to survive a very survivable fall into the water. If I didn't survive because I did not have the PFD on, I think most people would say that I was not only "Extremely recless", but just plain old regular reckless. My thinking is that this is not a good place to suggest that non-use of a PFD is reasonable. You used "Coast Guard" statistics to augment your augument. Are there any Coast Guard members who would agree that non-use of PFD's anytime you are on the water is good advice? Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
Personal Choice
Dan, First, I didn't suggest that anyone skip wearing a PFD or tether, in spite of your implication that I did. I merely suggested that it is a personal choice, and in some conditions at least, a reasonable one. By your own report you youself do not wear a PFD under all conditions. I did also suggest that a large majority of sailors skip the PFD at night some of the time and that the majority of boats do not even carry any means to clip in. I believe that this is true here, perhaps it might not be the case everywhere. I think wearing a PFD is a good thing to do as, is using a tether. I do both when I think conditions warrant. I recommend others do the same when they feel it is prudent. Pete BTW: I don't think the following is particularly relevent, but since you asked ... You asked, "Are there any Coast Guard members who would agree that non-use of PFD's anytime you are on the water is good advice?". My answer is that I have two friends who were in the Coast Guard (one of them retired from the CG) and neither wears a PFD all of the time while underway and in the cockpit. I have only seen them in a boat in pretty benign conditions, but haven't seen either with a PFD on. I do not know when they do and don't wear one, but I do know it isn't all the time.
Dan, First, I didn't suggest that anyone skip wearing a PFD or tether, in spite of your implication that I did. I merely suggested that it is a personal choice, and in some conditions at least, a reasonable one. By your own report you youself do not wear a PFD under all conditions. I did also suggest that a large majority of sailors skip the PFD at night some of the time and that the majority of boats do not even carry any means to clip in. I believe that this is true here, perhaps it might not be the case everywhere. I think wearing a PFD is a good thing to do as, is using a tether. I do both when I think conditions warrant. I recommend others do the same when they feel it is prudent. Pete BTW: I don't think the following is particularly relevent, but since you asked ... You asked, "Are there any Coast Guard members who would agree that non-use of PFD's anytime you are on the water is good advice?". My answer is that I have two friends who were in the Coast Guard (one of them retired from the CG) and neither wears a PFD all of the time while underway and in the cockpit. I have only seen them in a boat in pretty benign conditions, but haven't seen either with a PFD on. I do not know when they do and don't wear one, but I do know it isn't all the time.
Not the "Real" Coast Guard but...
I am the local Coast Guard Auxiliary Flotilla commander. Whenever anyone is on the water doing Coast Guard business they wear a PFD. When the water temp gets low enough we also wear Mustang suits. When I am out on my own I do not wear one all of the time. I ask everyone who gets on the boat to pick one out and try it on. I then tell them "If you are not going to wear it, keep track of were you put yours if we do need them." The time it takes to don and fit one is considerably more than the time it takes to don one that is already sized for you especially if a person is not familiar with it. Kids on board who are out of the cabin wear one any time we are under way. This is pretty much the same thought of all the Coast Guard and Auxiliary folks I know. Is it safer to wear one all of the time? Absolutely. But we all know the risks and the dangers of not wearing one and weigh that against the situation at the time for making the decision. During the day with the air temperatures in the 90s the water in the 80s 100 yards off of the shore were in most places you could just stand up and walk home if required a PFD is not needed as much as when the temps are in the 30 or 40s its dark, rough and you are a couple of miles off shore. If you are sailing off shore and alone just a PFD by itself is not going to help you much when it is a couple of hundred miles to shore and nobody knows your in the water. You make your decisions and live with the consequences. Boating has actually gotten much safer. The only incidence of an increase in accidents is among non-traditional boaters, (hunters, kayakers personal water craft, etc) and we have launched an extra effort to get them educated on staying safe on the water. Most folks get into trouble on the water after doing something stupid for many they get stupid after they are drunk. If you take the time to think about what you are doing and have second thoughts about doing it don't. If there is not a choice about it do everything you can to make it as safe as possible. If I thought it was necessary to wear a PFD every time I was out on my boat I would be looking for a safer hobby like bungee jumping or Rattle Snake farming. To answer Steve's original question you are not neurotic at all. I would like to add anyone out there with a non automatic inflatable think twice about wearing it in lieu of a traditional PFD. It will not do you any good if you are not able to inflate it on your own and that may be why you ended up in the water in the first place.
I am the local Coast Guard Auxiliary Flotilla commander. Whenever anyone is on the water doing Coast Guard business they wear a PFD. When the water temp gets low enough we also wear Mustang suits. When I am out on my own I do not wear one all of the time. I ask everyone who gets on the boat to pick one out and try it on. I then tell them "If you are not going to wear it, keep track of were you put yours if we do need them." The time it takes to don and fit one is considerably more than the time it takes to don one that is already sized for you especially if a person is not familiar with it. Kids on board who are out of the cabin wear one any time we are under way. This is pretty much the same thought of all the Coast Guard and Auxiliary folks I know. Is it safer to wear one all of the time? Absolutely. But we all know the risks and the dangers of not wearing one and weigh that against the situation at the time for making the decision. During the day with the air temperatures in the 90s the water in the 80s 100 yards off of the shore were in most places you could just stand up and walk home if required a PFD is not needed as much as when the temps are in the 30 or 40s its dark, rough and you are a couple of miles off shore. If you are sailing off shore and alone just a PFD by itself is not going to help you much when it is a couple of hundred miles to shore and nobody knows your in the water. You make your decisions and live with the consequences. Boating has actually gotten much safer. The only incidence of an increase in accidents is among non-traditional boaters, (hunters, kayakers personal water craft, etc) and we have launched an extra effort to get them educated on staying safe on the water. Most folks get into trouble on the water after doing something stupid for many they get stupid after they are drunk. If you take the time to think about what you are doing and have second thoughts about doing it don't. If there is not a choice about it do everything you can to make it as safe as possible. If I thought it was necessary to wear a PFD every time I was out on my boat I would be looking for a safer hobby like bungee jumping or Rattle Snake farming. To answer Steve's original question you are not neurotic at all. I would like to add anyone out there with a non automatic inflatable think twice about wearing it in lieu of a traditional PFD. It will not do you any good if you are not able to inflate it on your own and that may be why you ended up in the water in the first place.
Inflatables?
Steven, I just want to add one comment. Any and all precautions are absolutely necessary and accidents also "happen" on 41 and 51 foot boats. PFD, harnesses, jacklines, PFD lights and the like are a must for night sailing. I will also suggest that you reconsider you choice of PFD. Infatable PFD's, both manually and self inflatables, fail, period. Just last September a sailor fell overboard during a race in the Great Lakes and drowned in spite of being recovered by other sailors in the race. He was wearing a manually inflatable PFD which did not open. I do not know if the actual cause of death was drowning, but when other sailors got to him he had to be floated as he had already gone under several feet. He was DOA. Regardless of the cause of death (which might have been drowning), the point to us sailors here is that infaltable PFD's do not operate 100% of the times and this is very bad if it happens to you or someone in your boat. Also remember that these PFD's must be checked periodically, etc. In the end of course it is like a flashbulb, you don't really know if it will work until you try it, but there is a lot more at stake than a lousy picture. I own one and I have removed it from the boat as I had an interesting experience with it a few months back; fortunately everything was OK. In any case you should consider the type 1, US Coast Guard approved PFD, with a light, wistle and personal flares. I want to make sure that if I go overboard at night I will float and people can see me so that they can pick me up. A PFD is the last line of defense once you are in the water, it better work when you need it. Regards Ed
Steven, I just want to add one comment. Any and all precautions are absolutely necessary and accidents also "happen" on 41 and 51 foot boats. PFD, harnesses, jacklines, PFD lights and the like are a must for night sailing. I will also suggest that you reconsider you choice of PFD. Infatable PFD's, both manually and self inflatables, fail, period. Just last September a sailor fell overboard during a race in the Great Lakes and drowned in spite of being recovered by other sailors in the race. He was wearing a manually inflatable PFD which did not open. I do not know if the actual cause of death was drowning, but when other sailors got to him he had to be floated as he had already gone under several feet. He was DOA. Regardless of the cause of death (which might have been drowning), the point to us sailors here is that infaltable PFD's do not operate 100% of the times and this is very bad if it happens to you or someone in your boat. Also remember that these PFD's must be checked periodically, etc. In the end of course it is like a flashbulb, you don't really know if it will work until you try it, but there is a lot more at stake than a lousy picture. I own one and I have removed it from the boat as I had an interesting experience with it a few months back; fortunately everything was OK. In any case you should consider the type 1, US Coast Guard approved PFD, with a light, wistle and personal flares. I want to make sure that if I go overboard at night I will float and people can see me so that they can pick me up. A PFD is the last line of defense once you are in the water, it better work when you need it. Regards Ed
Tan Lines
Pete, I did not wear the PFD in the Virgins because I wanted to avoid the tan lines. Besides, everytime I dove in to check the anchor set it made it difficult to get down more than a few feet, even when I dove off the second spreader. Seriously, I appreciate your comments and respect that these things are matters of choice. I apologize if you think I came on a little strong. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
Pete, I did not wear the PFD in the Virgins because I wanted to avoid the tan lines. Besides, everytime I dove in to check the anchor set it made it difficult to get down more than a few feet, even when I dove off the second spreader. Seriously, I appreciate your comments and respect that these things are matters of choice. I apologize if you think I came on a little strong. Dan Jonas (S/V Feije)
And another thing ...
Keeping a proper watch is more critical at night. Recently, we were sailing at night, a moonlit night, on the Chesapeake. We came upon a small boat at anchor with no anchor light displayed. Fortunately, they had a citronella candle burning in the cockpit, and we, several sets of eyes, saw him in time to avoid a certain collision. A sailboat under sail at night is very stealthy; that boat at anchor was just as surprised by us as we were by him.
Keeping a proper watch is more critical at night. Recently, we were sailing at night, a moonlit night, on the Chesapeake. We came upon a small boat at anchor with no anchor light displayed. Fortunately, they had a citronella candle burning in the cockpit, and we, several sets of eyes, saw him in time to avoid a certain collision. A sailboat under sail at night is very stealthy; that boat at anchor was just as surprised by us as we were by him.
Night Vision
Singlehand in the SF Bay and have always worn a self inflating PFD. Always clip on to a through bole ring or jacklines when going forward. A big self congratulatory slap on the back for me. But. For my own stupid pet trick. I was sailing during the day, into the evening, and then under a full moon last summer. At about 11:00 p.m. things started to cool with an onshore breeze. I put on a banana suit to stay warm. The rising sweatfog from the suit was fogging my glasses, so I took them off to clean. Discovered I had been wearing sunglasses the whole time. Doh!
Singlehand in the SF Bay and have always worn a self inflating PFD. Always clip on to a through bole ring or jacklines when going forward. A big self congratulatory slap on the back for me. But. For my own stupid pet trick. I was sailing during the day, into the evening, and then under a full moon last summer. At about 11:00 p.m. things started to cool with an onshore breeze. I put on a banana suit to stay warm. The rising sweatfog from the suit was fogging my glasses, so I took them off to clean. Discovered I had been wearing sunglasses the whole time. Doh!
A couple more comments
Dan, No offense taken. I think that we may actually be pretty close to agreeing on this issue. I just figured I needed to pipe up because whenever safety issues come up two things usually happen. 1. Only the people who take the most precautions usually pipe up. 2. They present the most conservative interpretation of their opinion. So any way, be safe and have fun. Pete
Dan, No offense taken. I think that we may actually be pretty close to agreeing on this issue. I just figured I needed to pipe up because whenever safety issues come up two things usually happen. 1. Only the people who take the most precautions usually pipe up. 2. They present the most conservative interpretation of their opinion. So any way, be safe and have fun. Pete
Inflatables? Absolutes?
Ed, Sorry for prolonging this further, but these absolute statements really need to be challenged. You say, "Any and all precautions are absolutely necessary and accidents also "happen" on 41 and 51 foot boats". That statement is absurd. How about "all reasonable" instead of "any and all". NO ONE including you takes "any and all precautions". You can always dream up more possible precautions. Never travel without a doctor on board, never travel with out trained rescue divers hovering overhead in a helicoptor. The list could go on for ever. Accidents will happen at some rate on any boat regardless of what precautions you take. You take the level of precautions that make sense to you. Regarding manually inflatable PFD's: The fact that you may be unconcious or for some other reason not inflate your PFD is a good thing to consider when deciding what PFD to use. It is just one of many things to consider though. Few people wear a PFD ALL of the time, so if an inflatable means you will wear it more of the time then it might be a better choice. As you point out they do not operate 100% of the time. On the other hand, no device is 100% effective. You just don't get any 100% guarantees when it comes to safety. I can't think of any place or activity that can promise that. It certainly isn't possible on a boat. You just take the level of precautions that you feel you should. Everyone will draw the line in a different place. Have fun and be safe, Pete
Ed, Sorry for prolonging this further, but these absolute statements really need to be challenged. You say, "Any and all precautions are absolutely necessary and accidents also "happen" on 41 and 51 foot boats". That statement is absurd. How about "all reasonable" instead of "any and all". NO ONE including you takes "any and all precautions". You can always dream up more possible precautions. Never travel without a doctor on board, never travel with out trained rescue divers hovering overhead in a helicoptor. The list could go on for ever. Accidents will happen at some rate on any boat regardless of what precautions you take. You take the level of precautions that make sense to you. Regarding manually inflatable PFD's: The fact that you may be unconcious or for some other reason not inflate your PFD is a good thing to consider when deciding what PFD to use. It is just one of many things to consider though. Few people wear a PFD ALL of the time, so if an inflatable means you will wear it more of the time then it might be a better choice. As you point out they do not operate 100% of the time. On the other hand, no device is 100% effective. You just don't get any 100% guarantees when it comes to safety. I can't think of any place or activity that can promise that. It certainly isn't possible on a boat. You just take the level of precautions that you feel you should. Everyone will draw the line in a different place. Have fun and be safe, Pete
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