• Sailing is all about the Weather.

    Big into the exploration of Atlantic Hurricanes since Katrina came uninvited into his world, James (Jim) Gurley (JamesG161) has followed every Tropical Storm birthed in Atlantic, Gulf and Caribbean waters since. Being a boater, he knows that we often need more time to prepare than we get from the TV weather folk. Jim relies on the science of storm development to share early warning info with friends and fellow boaters.

    Early in 2018, Jim and John Shepard, (JSSailem) started to chat about the weather data available. John asked Jim to help forecast Pacific NW storms, and this morphed into discussions on weather forecasting.

    For John, sailing in the PNW is sometimes hit and miss. One day is ugly, then a string of beautiful days but no wind, followed by a series of blue-sky days and 12 knot breezes. Being ready for those great sailing days means you need to look to the Pacific Ocean and what is brewing. John has been into Pacific NW Weather since the 1970’s when his first PNW November storm hit bringing more than 40 days and 40 nights of continual rain.

    Together we want to share information, new APPs, safety, and thoughts about letting the weather help you. Identify some of the resources for sailors and help prepare you for your next sailboat outing.

    It is far better to go out on the water knowing what to expect in weather terms, than to be out on the water and see dark ominous clouds suddenly appear, unprepared.

New technology : Lightening Protection System

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,843
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
We have had several discussions about the damage caused by lightning to boaters and their equipment. Many of these threads evolve into "How do I protect my boat?"

This looks like a new approach to stopping what, in insurance terms, is referred to as "Act of God".

It uses an Electromagnetic Charge Compensation Device (DDCE).

dinnteco-america-announces-revolution-in-onboard-lightning-protection-systems
 

jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,843
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Has it proven to be successful? I would guess it is an expensive option.
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
492
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
Has it proven to be successful? I would guess it is an expensive option.
We have been in Panama for the past year. Lightning in the summer here is come to Jesus levels, and many boats get hit (we have been hit).

Last summer, the marina we were in had 4 boats hit (5 actually, but I will come back to that). Three of the boats hit had that exact LPD system installed on them. The strikes were catastrophic, taking out all electrical and electronics, and doing physical damage to the boat itself. The 4th boat hit was in the slip next to us, and didn't have that system installed. It also was a catastrophic strike.

The 5th boat struck was one of the original struck boats taking a second strike. Crews of technicians had spent two months full-time replacing every system on that boat, including the lightning protection device. The crew told me it was a $1 million refit/damage repair. One day after the refit was completed, the boat took another catastrophic strike. The lightning protection device was laying on the deck when I went over to look after seeing the strike.

For perspective, the three boats struck with the LPD were the tallest masts in the marina, as they were large expensive boats. There was also another boat hauled out on the hard with this LPD, but I don't know if it took a hit as nobody was on it (after talking to two of the boats hit with that LPD, I was looking around at other boats to see how prevalent they were and saw that one on the hard).

These systems are a waste of money bordering on fraudulent. All of the "testimonies" consist of people saying they installed them and have never been hit. That is meaningless, as many boats without them also have never been hit. The company(s) making them have no scientific experiments, nor usable statistics supporting them other than "this tower got hit, then installed one and hasn't been hit". If they truly worked, even in just a minor statistical way, insurance companies would be requiring them, or at least waving deductibles if they are installed. They are not. Commercial towers and buildings still protect from lightning using tried and true methods, and not these devices.

Mark
 

walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,538
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Similar to the fuzzy ball thing.. These might dissipate some charge in high electric fields but its somewhat like trying to empty the ocean with a table spoon. Maybe more like a tea spoon. These might reduce the odds by a tiny bit of a leader forming right at the device so instead the leader might form half a foot away.

You really can not influence getting hit or not. Grounding or not doest make a difference when electric fields are very high. But you can influence how well you handle a strike and grounding does matter. The term grounding to water also includes grounding to the water surface where lighting is initially being discharged and this is the stuff Dr Ewen Thomson was promoting Marine Lightning Protection Inc. You can also reduce the odds of equipment damage with surge protection.. but its only reducing the odds.
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
492
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
Over the past 16yrs cruising in lands of lightning, we have taken one direct strike, and at least 4 indirect strikes with various damages in the form of lost equipment. I've learned a lot from observation and taking things apart about how lightning surges move about the boat, and how equipment and structure are damaged by them.

1. Give lighting a robust direct path to the water.

This is more than just a small wire assuring equal potential. It needs to be able to carry a strike load and provide a surface designed to dissipate the energy. This surface needs to be more than just a metal keel - it needs edge surfaces.

Our boat that took the direct strike had a LPD system that consisted of a 4/0 cable with a tinned copper electrode on the end of it containing 20' of edge surface. This part was dropped in the water whenever at anchor or dock, and the other end was clamped to the mast with a significant clamping mechanism attached to a permanently installed plate on the mast. This is a catamaran, so clamping to the mast and dropping into the water through the trampoline is the most direct path. While we lost almost all electronic equipment from the strike surge, there was no structural damage, and the LDP electrode had its tin burned off the edge surfaces, some pitting of those edges, and melting of the heat shrink on the connection points - so it did its job.

Unfortunately, this system is no longer sold, as it was a one-man operation by someone steeped in lightning background who just got too old to continue. So for our current boat, each hull has a large ground plate with sharp edges installed in them, with the shrouds and mast connected to the plates with 1/0 wire. It isn't ideal, as the wires are longer and have more bends in them than the other system, but it does keep the mast at ground potential, and gives lighting paths to the water more favorable than just bursting through the fiberglass.

2. Clamp/shut down main electrical paths into the boat, and protect overall circuits.

All of the damage from our strike and indirect strikes was from energy on the DC(-) and grounding system side of things. Radios with fuses on both Pos and Neg leads had only the Neg fuses blown. Damaged circuit boards had only Neg and ground traces and components damaged. Equipment whose breakers were turned off suffered damage through the common negative bus. If possible, it is best to use double pole breakers that isolate both legs of a circuit when off.

Next, use MOV surge protectors on the AC and DC main electrical buses. We have them on the shore power inlet, the AC and DC distribution panels, and directly on the battery main buses. Ones like this - you will find AC and DC versions and need to have the correct ones: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07PFVQBL2?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_1

For the VHF coax, a coax surge protector that is more than just a gas discharge tube - it also needs a static bleed and a DC block like one of these: Coaxial Cable Lightning Arrestor, Coaxial Cable Surge Arrestor

3. Protect individual devices.

We consider our NMEA2000 network and VHF radio to be most important, so they get isolated from the rest of the devices using isolated power supplies like this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LYZZRBQ?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_1 . An additional advantage of using these is that they are buck/boost, so the output voltage can be set to a constant 13.8V regardless of the house battery voltage. This is better for the equipment and protects them from surges and varying voltages. The N2K network supplies power to all the devices on it, so they are all isolated and protected at once. The VHF is a real problem in lightning strikes, as its coax shield is grounded to the main DC bus. Even if the coax surge protector is overwhelmed, a dedicated isolated power supply keeps the VHF isolated from the rest of the circuits.

Other devices than the above are protected by TVS diodes across their power inputs - like these: https://www.newark.com/littelfuse/p6ke33ca/tvs-diode-600w-33v-do-15/dp/17H1873?st=p6ke33ca . I even put them across the DC-DC power supply inputs and outputs to help protect the power supply device itself.

Does all the above work? Maybe. That large catastrophic strike the boat next to us took last summer caused no damage to us, while the boat on the other side of us, and the boat on the other side of the struck boat, both had electronic damages. In the past before these efforts, we would take some electronic/electrical damage any time lightning hit close to us. This is still in the category of coincidence, however.

Mark
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
492
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
There is an odd 5 paragraph blurb about weather forecasting permanently at the top of this thread that I am seeing. It doesn't seem related to the thread, and I've never seen it before. It is related to @jssailem, so maybe it is related to the thread in a way I don't understand.

Does everyone see this?

Mark
 
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walt

.
Jun 1, 2007
3,538
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Colemj, good post... thats what you need to do..

Just to add... On the RF surge protection, most of the lightning radiated energy is under 1 Mhz so anything that doesnt pass DC is useful. An RF surge protection device that does pass DC is going to be much less effective.

Also, lightning itself is a large mostly up to down current flow and will create a large magnetic field which of course propagates. Any conductor that is somewhat aligned with that magnetic field will have a surge of current. Interesting that you have observed more damage in ground wires but all wires pos or neg or just simply conductors will have induced current.
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
492
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
One more thought - this was one of the boats struck I mentioned with that LDP. My advice is that if you are going to permanently epoxy solar panels all over your boat hulls and decks, you do not want to be any place where a lightning strike might happen. The strike ran through all of those panels, and they now have to be removed/replaced. The boat got repaired just enough to motor away, so I don't know what is involved with repairing the rest of it.

Mark

sunreef.jpeg
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
492
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
Colemj, good post... thats what you need to do..

Just to add... On the RF surge protection, most of the lightning radiated energy is under 1 Mhz so anything that doesnt pass DC is useful. An RF surge protection device that does pass DC is going to be much less effective.

Also, lightning itself is a large mostly up to down current flow and will create a large magnetic field which of course propagates. Any conductor that is somewhat aligned with that magnetic field will have a surge of current. Interesting that you have observed more damage in ground wires but all wires pos or neg or just simply conductors will have induced current.
Yes, I didn't mean to imply the ground wires had induced current. My hypothesis was they had direct current on them. Almost positive that came down through the VHF coax shield that is ultimately connected to the DC ground bus.

One observation was that we had consumer electronics laying around everywhere - computers, ipods, phones, HH radios, HH GPS's, tablets, mifi devices, etc. None of them were damaged by EMP or induced currents. The computers were plugged in at the time and unharmed, even though the inverter powering them literally went up in smoke. My belief is that the whole "put things in the oven/microwave/ammo container/etc is way overblown.

As I mentioned, the VHF coax protection has a DC block capacitor built into it - there is no direct connection on the center conductor from one side to the other. However, the coax shield is still connected. I was unable to find an inner-outer DC block that isolated the shield. I talked to Array Solutions and Polyphasor techs, and they said they had too many problems with inner-outers and don't make them now.

The MOV surge protectors on the DC panels are designed to short the DC during a surge, so they by nature must pass DC.

I also forgot to mention that when possible, all DC wire pairs are twisted throughout their runs. Mostly just the larger power cables, since it is inconvenient to run single wires instead of duplex for smaller stuff.

Mark
 

colemj

.
Jul 13, 2004
492
Dolphin Catamaran Dolphin 460 Mystic, CT
There is an odd 5 paragraph blurb about weather forecasting permanently at the top of this thread that I am seeing. It doesn't seem related to the thread, and I've never seen it before. It is related to @jssailem, so maybe it is related to the thread in a way I don't understand.

Does everyone see this?

Mark
Doh, it was pointed out to me that this was the heading for the weather forum. Since I always have posts presented to me as "show new posts", I didn't even look at what forum it was in. My bad!

Mark
 
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Likes: jssailem
Jun 1, 2009
1,823
Hunter 49 toronto
We have had several discussions about the damage caused by lightning to boaters and their equipment. Many of these threads evolve into "How do I protect my boat?"

This looks like a new approach to stopping what, in insurance terms, is referred to as "Act of God".

It uses an Electromagnetic Charge Compensation Device (DDCE).

dinnteco-america-announces-revolution-in-onboard-lightning-protection-systems
Ok
This is simply (for lack of a better word), rubbish
There are several makes of these devices.
They are nothing more than big capacitors.
They show ridiculous claims whereby installing one of these things will protect the Statue of Liberty, etc., etc.
Here is reality
Lightning bolts are millions of volts at thousands of amperes.
If you walk across a carpet in a dry room & touch a doorknob, you’ll get a spark - type shock
This actually has thousands of volts (potential) but micro amps of current
In the shown tests of these devices, they use things such as Van De Graf generators to whip up high voltages, and then bleed off the ionizing current using these “magical devices”
That’s not representative of lighting.
I can guarantee you that if a bolt of lightning hit one of these things, you’d be hard pressed to find remnants of it.
They work on the principle that lightning is so unpredictable, is impossible to prove that something is actually working
I have worked aboard many notable mega yachts installing lightning protection specifically for B&G wind systems .
All of the yachts had been previously hit, with a ton of damage.
After installing this system, they were (not surprisingly), hit again.
When you have a 200 foot tall rig, it’s just part of the issues you’ll face.
But… in all of the cases, there was zero subsequent damage to the protected systems .
This is NOT magic or rocket science. There are specific components in the marketplace which are designed to protect systems from these events. The skill is in packaging them properly, and doing an install with proper grounding, etc., etc
I was always thrilled to receive letters from Captains saying “we got hit again. NO damage to gear. THANkS!”

To reiterate….. nothing you put on top of your mast is going to dissuade a lighting bolt from hitting you. If such a technology existed, every commercial aircraft would have them installed

FYI… the actual name of these advertised devices is “dissipators”. They theorize that by bleeding off charge, they are “dissipating” the ionic charge. You’ll see these things on masts which look like pine tree branches.

So, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there is no way that a multi-million volt charge with thousands of amps is going to change direction and go somewhere else.
 
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jssailem

SBO Weather and Forecasting Forum Jim & John
Oct 22, 2014
22,843
CAL 35 Cruiser #21 moored EVERETT WA
Great information for those with less understanding of the power of lightening.
Thank you @artboas and @colemj for your sharing of knowledge on this subject.

My experience with lightening has been limited to observations in the woods as atree was struck and lit up, and on a golf course. I have learned that you want to drop your clubs and go prone, preferably in a ditch below the level of the ground. I have observed lightening strike the flag in the green and drop the golfers standing at the edge of the green. All I experienced was my hair standing up on end like when you tough one of the static electricity generators.
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