New sails coming - best of both worlds?

[Jackdaw]

Gpl with lite skins does indeed have polyester film. Lite skin is a “skin” which is a substitute for woven taffeta. Gpl LShas 2 layers of polyester film. It’s not correct to say that GPL Liteskin has no film.

DP has been working for 4 years on developing the technology to make a film-less laminate. And just a couple of months ago, in Sept, DP announced its first film less laminate, called iLex.

New player? - Dimension-Polyant

i-LEX™

www.dimension-polyant.com

New player?

Seahorse Magazine

www.seahorsemagazine.com

Judy B
Sailmaker

Thanks for jumping in (again) Judy! Yes that's a great clarification. DP makes it harder to wrap your head around because they have a Lite Skin product for sailmakers (Just the skin) and a GPL Lite Skin product for sailors (the cloth, with Technora warp, fill, and ply). The less expensive but more expensive sounding Carbon Sport Lite Skin uses lower tech black polyester for the threads, and carbon only for some insert.

@DrJudyB , I'd be interested in your thoughts on the 'insert carbon. I'm assuming that the warp/fill(/ply)? are woven into a scrim, and the the carbon is strands that is laid on top before the stuff is sandwiched together?

 

[DrJudyB]

Dimension Polyant GPL Liteskin is the same product as GPL GraphX but with with Lite skin laminated on the outside. It is a film laminate with Technora and Carbon fibers, no twaron .

DP’s “Aramid Sport LS” has twaron (a para-aramid) laminate with film, with the Lite Skin

DP’s “Carbon Sport LS” has a laminate of film, Carbon and technora fibers with LiteSkin on the outside

https://www.dimension-polyant.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/dp_Produktflyer_GPL_GraphX_E_Web.pdf

https://www.dimension-polyant.com/download/aramid-sport/?lang=en&wpdmdl=77359

https://www.dimension-polyant.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/dp_produktflyer_CarbonSport_E_Web.pdf

 

[DrJudyB]

@DrJudyB , I'd be interested in your thoughts on the 'insert carbon. I'm assuming that the warp/fill(/ply)? are woven into a scrim, and the the carbon is strands that is laid on top before the stuff is sandwiched together

@Jackdaw
Hi Clay

I wouldn’t call them “threads”. Thread implies they are twisted. They are all “ fibers” or “yarns” or “inserts “ laid between the film in different orientations. Some look like parallel stripes in one direction (for example, Carbon), some look like a diamond shaped pattern ( for example 22 degree Technora) and others look like square grids ( for example Technora warp and fill at 0 and 90 degrees)

The Carbon fiber inserts are only on the 0 degree (warp) orientation, which is the most highly loaded on a triradial paneled sail.

The Technora “ grid” is inserted on the second most highly loaded orientation. It’s inserted "on the bias". which in DP's opinion should be at about 22 degrees to either side of the 0 degree (warp), and DP markets that as “X-Ply”.

The 0 and 90 degree orientation are aka “warp and fill”. On a tri radial paneled sail, the 90 degree (fill) direction carries very little load. In the GPL, the warp and fill is Technora, which is less brittle than Carbon, and less stretch than polyester. In the Carbon Sport, the warp and fill is polyester.

(Warp orientation is the "long" thread direction in woven cloth produced as rolled goods on a loom. By convention, we call that "0 degrees". The fill orientation for rolled goods is across the shorter direcition, and that's at "90 degrees". We use the same conventions for laminates.)

I wouldn’t recommend Carbon Sport laminate for a boat much bigger than 35 feet or so. GPL laminate can be used up to about 50 feet. Both laminates are available with Lite skin for increased durability.

Call me if you’d like to discuss it in more detail.
Judy

 

[Ted]

My new main and genoa are made with Lite Skin. This is my first season with them and I love the product. Besides the GPL Lite Skin Dimension Polyant also makes Carbon Sport Lite Skin which is very similar to GPL but slightly less expensive. It's a great material if your sails are doing double duty racing and performance cruising/day sailing.

 

[Jackdaw]

@Jackdaw
Hi Clay

I wouldn’t call them “threads”. Thread implies they are twisted. They are all “ fibers” or “yarns” or “inserts “ laid between the film in different orientations. Some look like parallel stripes in one direction (for example, Carbon), some look like a diamond shaped pattern ( for example 22 degree Technora) and others look like square grids ( for example Technora warp and fill at 0 and 90 degrees)

The Carbon fiber inserts are only on the 0 degree (warp) orientation, which is the most highly loaded on a triradial paneled sail.

The Technora “ grid” is inserted on the second most highly loaded orientation. It’s inserted "on the bias". which in DP's opinion should be at about 22 degrees to either side of the 0 degree (warp), and DP markets that as “X-Ply”.

The 0 and 90 degree orientation are aka “warp and fill”. On a tri radial paneled sail, the 90 degree (fill) direction carries very little load. In the GPL, the warp and fill is Technora, which is less brittle than Carbon, and less stretch than polyester. In the Carbon Sport, the warp and fill is polyester.

(Warp orientation is the "long" thread direction in woven cloth produced as rolled goods on a loom. By convention, we call that "0 degrees". The fill orientation for rolled goods is across the shorter direcition, and that's at "90 degrees". We use the same conventions for laminates.)

I wouldn’t recommend Carbon Sport laminate for a boat much bigger than 35 feet or so. GPL laminate can be used up to about 50 feet. Both laminates are available with Lite skin for increased durability.

Call me if you’d like to discuss it in more detail.
Judy

@DrJudyB - This is all gold. Thanks for the detailed reply. The insert deal makes total sense to me now. I never quite thought through the scrim vs insert thing before, but now it makes total sense. The over/under weave of the scrim material will guarantee some stretch as the the scrim tries to flatten under load. But the straight carbon insert 'fibers' ;^) pretty much take all/most of the load before they get the chance to do so!

Kind of like why the polyester cover of dyneema cored line has no effect on line strength. While it could, the dyneema loads up with so little stretch, that the much stretchier cover does not have a change to add any strength value.

What a great discussion!

 

[Jackdaw]

My new main and genoa are made with Lite Skin. This is my first season with them and I love the product. Besides the GPL Lite Skin Dimension Polyant also makes Carbon Sport Lite Skin which is very similar to GPL but slightly less expensive. It's a great material if you're sails are doing double duty racing and performance cruising/day sailing.

awesome. can't wait.

 

[Captain Larry-DH]

I've used a new Liteskin genoa for 2 seasons now and I'm very pleased with it. I think it's a great material for performance cruising/racing.

 

[Hunter216]

After reading the links provided, thank you to @Jackdaw and @DrJudyB for those, it seems to me that DP and whoever their competition is are motivated to get their products into more mainstream use. I would see the major impediments to that being $ compared to “traditional” materials and willingness of the general public, sailmakers and boatbuilders to “upgrade”. The upgrade could be either to select this type of material for replacements to worn out sails or an “option” when purchasing a new boat.

I am curious as to how much the current $ differential is compared to for example the sails here on SBO and how quickly people see that differential changing.

The other opinion I’m curious about is the willingness of the consumer to adopt this newer tech?

 

[jssailem]

Great write up @DrJudyB . Thank you.

 

[Jackdaw]

After reading the links provided, thank you to @Jackdaw and @DrJudyB for those, it seems to me that DP and whoever their competition is are motivated to get their products into more mainstream use. I would see the major impediments to that being $ compared to “traditional” materials and willingness of the general public, sailmakers and boatbuilders to “upgrade”. The upgrade could be either to select this type of material for replacements to worn out sails or an “option” when purchasing a new boat.

I am curious as to how much the current $ differential is compared to for example the sails here on SBO and how quickly people see that differential changing.

The other opinion I’m curious about is the willingness of the consumer to adopt this newer tech?

Well I'm sure Judy will have an option as well, but from where I sit, there are two important characteristics of a sail, that often are direct trade-offs. Shape-holding and durability.

Dacron has never been great a shape-holding, but is very durable. So it is a long-lived material, now for smaller budgets and true cruisers who value the durability.

Laminates and other hi-tech came on, shapeholding much better, but at the expense of durability and long life. Material like UK Tapedrive was OK, but we used to call North's 3DL material 'Three Day Life'.

But the hook was set, once you got a set of high-performing high-tech sails, its hard to go back.

So the R&D race was on, with the players looking to create a high-tech material that would of course hold shape, but also be durable. North with proprietary molded 3di, etc were in, and big cloth suppliers like D-P coming forward with stuff like LiteSkin and i-Lex allow smaller lofts to play. Now getting 5-10 good years from a set of sails is not out of the question.

The costs will come down, its a scale thing as much as ROI thing for the makers.

Many sailors sit on the fence FOREVER regarding new sails, and then end up with a 20+ year old set that went to crap before their eyes so slow that they did not notice. The new material gives sailmakers a change to revisit these people with a fresh story.

 

[DrJudyB]

The over/under weave of the scrim material will guarantee some stretch as the the scrim tries to flatten under load.

The diagonal-ish, "off-line" "scrim" isn't an "over/under" weave. They put down each layer of fibers at a different orientation, on top of the previous layer. Crimping of the fibers is really very minimal (compared to woven fabrics like dacron).

I'm not sure about the square 0/90 degrees scrims. I'll have to get out my 150x scope to check. I can't tell with the naked eye.

 

[Jackdaw]

The "scrim" isn't an "over/under" weave. They put down one layer of fibers at a different orientation after another, on top of the previous layer. Crimping of the fibers is really very minimal (compared to woven fabrics like dacron)

So no crimp from that; cool. But that makes for a question; what is the difference between a scrim and an insert? I had assumed that the difference was scrim was under-over, and the insert was laid on.

 

[BobbyFunn]

Do you think this leads to thinner, lighter, easier to make "disposable" sails. Use for a couple races, or take down after a good storm, then toss like plastic for vacuum bagging?

 

[Jackdaw]

Do you think this leads to thinner, lighter, easier to make "disposable" sails. Use for a couple races, or take down after a good storm, then toss like plastic for vacuum bagging?

I don't think so. Partly because the entire sailing industry is taking a very hard line on plastics. And how they end up in the ocean. Some regattas are banning disposable one-time water bottles. A 'throw-away' sail would be a total non-starter.

 

[Jackdaw]

The diagonal-ish, "off-line" "scrim" isn't an "over/under" weave. They put down each layer of fibers at a different orientation, on top of the previous layer. Crimping of the fibers is really very minimal (compared to woven fabrics like dacron).

I'm not sure about the square 0/90 degrees scrims. I'll have to get out my 150x scope to check. I can't tell with the naked eye.

I just looked at a DP laminate sample under a 20x loupe and the 0/90 is definitely over/under.

 

[DrJudyB]

what is the difference between a scrim and an insert?

Traditionally, a scrim is a loose fabric with more holes than fabric. It has a net- like appearance.

I guess/assume Dimension Polyant chose the word “insert” to differentiate the carbon fibers from the netlike Technora fibers.

Neither “scrim” nor “ insert” is a narrow technical term.

 

[Hunter216]

The costs will come down, its a scale thing as much as ROI thing for the makers.

This is the thing, can’t scale up - driving cost down until the demand is there. I look at my local marinas and see a very small percentage of boats equipped with new tech sails. The high tech stuff is almost exclusively on boats that are race oriented.

No apparent shortage of money to spend as there are lots of newish large boats with lots of nice dinghys etc. so I’m thinking it’s more about the perception of the high tech stuff is only for racers or performance oriented sailors, the sails won’t last etc.

I encountered similar reluctance to using the internet when it was new. Seems pretty silly now but I had a lot of executives tell me it was just a flash in the pan thing

I haven’t attended a boat show in quite some time. I think I will go to the one in Toronto this year to see if there is anything “trending”

 

[JRT]

Is there any reason to consider Carbon Sport Lite Skin? I have 3 sail quotes and this is the most expensive option.

 

[Hunter216]

Is there any reason to consider Carbon Sport Lite Skin? I have 3 sail quotes and this is the most expensive option.

I don’t feel qualified to offer an opinion but am curious about the relative cost difference.

I realize I might be asking too personal a question so no need for actual numbers but a percentage difference would help me get my head around how much of a bump the newer stuff adds.

 

[DrJudyB]

Is there any reason to consider Carbon Sport Lite Skin? I have 3 sail quotes and this is the most expensive option.

If you only sail once or twice a month, it’s hard to justify the expense of laminate sails made with exotic fibers. But if you sail more frequently, lower stretch laminates are worth it, IMO, over the age of the sail

If you sail frequently, and plan to own the boat for many years, you will personally experience the huge difference between sails that hold a stable shape long term and those that don’t hold their shape.

For example, By the 50th day of use (400 hours?) , a medium quality, cross cut, Polyester Dacron sails of traditional weave and materials will have stretched noticeably to a trained eye, and an experienced skipper will notice the boat will not point quite as high or be as easily trimmed across a wide range of wind. The sails will still be serviceable.

By (roughly) the 100 th day (800 hours?) these same sail will be harder to trim, and require reefing more often. It will be hard to keep the helm balanced in gusts. (I personally would be feeling pretty frustrated with sails like this and would probably have replaced them a while ago.)

By day 50, the Carbon Sport LS will still have virtually the same shape as it had on Day 1. By day 100, they’d probably have the same shape as brand new, but perhaps be showingsome wear and tear.

( both examples assume you have minimized flogging and leech flutter, which can destroy a sail in only a few hours. Also I assume you don’t store your sails in a tightly creased, scrunched up pile.)

With regard to longevity, flogging and flutter and UV are the enemies

Non- woven Carbon is less stretchy but is less resistant to flex fatigue more than Twaron.
Non- woven Twaron is less stretchy but less flex resistant than Technora.
Non- woven Technora is less stretchy than polyester and slightly less flex resistant than polyester.
Non- woven polyester (as used in cruising laminates) is less stretch than crimped woven polyester.
Woven Polyester is stretchiest and resists flexing the best (but there are many grades of Polyester in terms of stretch)

....chose your compromise