New Rudder replacement cost big time

[Cliff]

I to have one of his rudder's

I was the 1st to work with Joel in makeing the rudder for the 28.5. Mine has worked great. Joel actually made 3 rudders and shipped them to me to get the design right. Since he had no access to a 28.5 he needed to do a little R&D. I think his responce to over night you a rudder was 1st rate. I also think the tow bill and the other cost were just bad luck. When we do the Chicago MAC and the Port Huron MAC race's it is consideed an off shore race even though we are on Lake Michigan and Lake Huron. But we must carry a long list of emergency equipment and a emergency rudder is one of them. I am sure you never thought this would ever happen who would have? But it did. I am sure Joel will correct this problem on all future rudder's but he does not have unlimited funds to do R & D on all of his rudder's like GM and Ford do on car's. It may not be so much of a poor design by Joel but more of a poor design by Hunter the way the rudder is connected to the transom. WHo know's maybe the same thing would have happened with the orginal rudder.Cliff

 

[Cliff]

Rudder

(Who know's maybe the same thing would have happened with the orginal rudder)After reading more it looks like the orginal rudder failed as well.Cliff

 

[MSsailor]

Why don't you tell everyone the rest of story?

where you went out the next day after you got back and managed to break your mast and your outboard in a tussle with a bridge?

 

[ted22530]

Bluewater sailing in a 260. You are brave.

The 260 has has a history of rudder problems. I suspect that it was damaged while you were in Bimini and finally cracked off while under sail. Without any proof of a manufacturing defect I wouldn't think the manaufacture would be responsible. Can't believe you took a 260 to Bimini. I have crossed in a 25 hunter with a deep keel when the wind swithed out of the north. The seas on the stream can get steep in a hurry and can make you find religion real quick. The 260 is great for gunkholing around the Keys or in the ICW as long as you don't get out of sight of land.

 

[Franklin]

CE Rating

I think it can best be told by the CE rating. Only 33' and above on Hunters have an offshore CE rating. A 31' has a B rating and everything below has a D rating. I think this is where Hunter gets a bad rep in Quality. If it's below a 33', don't take it to places where your going to induce strain and the gulf stream is a perfect example of that. If a small boat is for you and you want to go places like this, don't buy a Hunter.That's my opinion.

 

[Herb Parsons]

Backup Rudder?

Out of curiosity, what does one typically make a backup rudder out of? I don't sail my O'Day 25 out of sight of land (yet), but wouldn't mind having something as a backup anyway, but I wouldn't want something as heavy, or even as big, as the real rudder. Do you typically make something lighter weight that's only used to get you to the nearest safe spot?

 

[ricky]

Amazing

As I read this I was truely amazed that someone would actually sail offshore, across the Gulf Stream in a boat that is basically designed for day sailing in a lake or bay.Most amazing is the idea that the manufacturer is somehow liable for poor judgement.Almost any product that you can name is designed for "intended purpose" and "safe working load".Feel lucky that you were blessed with good weather and no one was injured.

 

[Moe16696]

Another Perspective...

I see three issues here. One was the quality of the rudder, and from the evidence presented by other 260 owners, it appears that regardless of how high it was, the bracket would have encouraged failure in use beyond that for which it is designed. IDA sailor's response seems exemplary.The second issue I see is your not carrying enough towing insurance to pay for most companies even leaving their dock. You gambled you wouldn't need more going with that low of a level of coverage... and you lost. At least to me, it seems unreasonable to expect IDA sailor to cover even a part of your gambling loss.The third is that PERHAPS you and your crew aren't cut out for cruising. Stuff happens even with a so-called "adequate" boat, but more probably and more seriously with a "less adequate" one. If you haven't planned for it, but as importantly, if you can't get over it quickly and go on to enjoy the rest of the trip, many if not most of them will end in disappointment.

 

[Steve Dion]

it goes to show.

I believe that this incident goes to show you that any boat can go anywhere given the right conditions.

 

[Bob]

Waiting to happen

Any competent engineer looking at the shape of the head of that rudder, its attachment points, and the forces applied to it would immediately identify the most likely location of material failure - the right angle notch where the curved upper section joins the lower mass. Every motion of the tiller causes stress at that point. Also, it appears to be constructed of dense foam covered by a couple of layers of fiberglass, with no other internal reinforcement (a common design for boats sailed in sheltered waters.) Rudders for more robust vessels generally have metal reinforcement in the form of "spiness" or "grids" as part of their innards. You were making some dangerous assumptions when you left Miami: perfect weather; no equipment failures; other boats around to help; communication gear to have no problems. One of these assumptions was false - if any others had also been false, you could easily have been in much greater trouble. I'd say you got a cheap education at that price, and no one was hurt. The big question now is, what will you do differently next time?

 

[Cliff]

Did this happen??

Why don't you tell everyone the rest of story? where you went out the next day after you got back and managed to break your mast and your outboard in a tussle with a bridge?

 

[Franklin]

You know

You guys can be cruel at times and drive people away.

 

[MSsailor]

The rest of the story

From another list:"The broken mast and destroyed motor happen on the way from Fort Lauderdale to Homestead. Traveling down the ICW, I had given the correct sound horn signal to a draw bridge and received a replay. The current was with us at about 4.5 kts. I didn't know the name of the bridge to call them up on the radio but was monitoring channel 13. I was expecting the bridge to open and when it looked like it wasn't going to open I tried to come about, as soon as I put the helm over the boat would only go so far against the current and my port side stay hit the bridge and snapped. The boat heeled over about 30-40 degrees then snapped the mast continued on thru the bridge with the port stern end hitting the bridge protection wall driving the motor into this wall. The rest is history.I'm working with the insurance to fix everything so wish my luck."JohnHe doesn't mention it in the story, but when the motor slammed the wall under the bridge, it snapped the lower end casting in half, destroying the motor. So he had a $890 towing bill, a broken mast/rigging, and a destoyed motor all because his rudder failed. I'll keep my stock fiberglass one."

 

[John Dawson]

Thanks, Steve D.

There's always one guy in every thread about such things that proclaims "Its not the boat, its the expert way the skipper yanks the rudder that counts. Any boat is a bluewater boat." Unless you were kidding, Steve, the record here is still intact. Ricky and Bob are much closer to the mark, although 70 miles is hardly bluewater (until you are in trouble.)First, you can get unlimited towing for a year for about $115 from BoatUS, a great deal considering the average cost when you need it. Most sailboats don't have towing insurance, and BUS doesn't even try to sell to that market, but considering where you went and the fact that the CoastGuard may charge you or refer you to a tow service anyway, it might be a good precaution for major outings.I agree that Idasailor did their best, and that the thing doesn't look like its meant to be rough water gear. Since an emergency steering plan is usually required for offshore events, I might have taken the original rudder as a spare. Steering with the sails isn't going to work in the 'horsemarket' of the Gulfstream. In the Bermuda race this year, we had steering gear problems on no less than a Mason43, and another large boat retired with a broken rudder shaft in the 30kts downwind with 8ft following seas (and that was before we reached the GS.) Last year a hefty 31footer was abandoned in extreme conditions. Now jumping 70 miles, with a motor and a flotilla in the weather-window of your choice, probably isn't unreasonable for a 26ft boat; but considering where you are when there is a problem, some emergency plans for common problems are in order even here.Its still not clear to me why you couldn't motor on back, perhaps after borrowing some spare jerry cans of fuel from the fleet. Doesn't your motor pivot a little?One moral is, even with a large vacation flotilla you are pretty much on your own offshore. No refunds are coming from the flotilla, the Coast Guard, the tow service, the boat manufacturer or the rudder supplier. Small boat makers are not suddenly going to start accepting liability for people who take their boats out into the ocean. Which brings us to the second moral, if light boats can break with normal ab/use, what happens in bad conditions?

 

[Phil Herring]

I removed a couple of replies

No need for this turn into a flame war. It's a fair question and there have been good points made on all sides of the issue. The directions it's wandering are good, too.A couple posts that were turning toward personal attacks have been removed. Sorry about that, and thanks for your cooperation.

 

[Capn. Don]

If you knew "Baum"

Having met the captain and admiral of "Baums Rush" and spending some time looking over his boat and some of his other projects, not boat related, I have no doubt that he had not taken all precautions and very meticulously planned this trip. Knowing his background, he had to be very explicit in his work, too many lives counted on him. This seems to be one of the perils of the sport, so cut him some slack.

 

[John Dawson]

Perhaps you meant to say...

that he HAD meticulously planned the trip, rather than that he had NOT made every precaution. I don't think thats the issue, but it raises an interesting point. Extensive preparation is great, but thats different from detailed planning, in which people convince themselves that everything is under control and will happen as programmed. I take it the person is not without boating experience, and so he would 'expect the unexpected'.

 

[Moe16696]

The best laid plans...

John Dawson writes, "...people convince themselves that everything is under control and will happen as programmed."Perhaps the $150 towing coverage was a symptom of that in this case? Preparing to prevent problems is a good and necessary practice. So is preparing to deal with them when they happen despite your best efforts.

 

[BobW]

I suspect he is God in this forum!

Otherwise known as the moderator? (At the bottom of this page, there is a link titled "Terms of Use". Might be a good read, Karl. You did agree to it, whether you read it or not.)The original post asked "What do you think?"I think:1. Be prepared. That rudder doesn't look very substantial to me. If you had a fleet of similar boats, at least 1 spare rudder would have been useful.2. Be responsible. The rudder manufacturer went above and beyond by overnighting you the replacement. You were wise enough to buy towing insurance, but not wise enough to get enough. Don't blame the rudder manufacturer, take responsibility for your actions.3. Be smart. If you're going to go 4-wheeling in your family sedan, expect things to break.One thing I still don't understand: The o/b motor on the H260 looks steerable. Why wouldn't that have worked, at least to steer with a modest set of sails working?I'm thinking about starting a new topic asking for discussion on what to do when the rudder fails. I read the story in the recent issue of CW about the race boat that lost its rudder and what they did about it and am interested in the subject.Cheers,Bobs/v X SAIL R 8

 

[Moe16696]

Another thought...

It may have also been a good thing the replacment rudder broke where an original would've. When you beef something up, it often just means the failure is going to occur somewhere else. Had it been some kind of super-rudder that didn't break, it may've been the bracket that broke, or pulled out of the transom.