New mainsail question for a 2005 Beneteau 323 furling mainsail

BigEasy · Apr 18, 2020

Frosty,
Yes, the older furling set-up was (more) problematic. My 06 Neil Pryde mainsail had vertical battens that would "hang up" as the sail aged.
I discussed the matter with a Neil Pryde loft and they recommended refitting the sail with newer thin profile battens and a different design batten pocket. They modified the sail accordingly for approximately $450, resulting in a much better operation. The thinner battens and pockets with no Velcro closures presented a much thinner surface to negotiate the slot. I know that there are many capable lofts; however, when I replace my mainsail, I will likely deal with Neil Pryde again. They have provided sails for Beneteaus for many years and likely have better working knowledge of the mast and furling systems on Beneteaus as compared to other lofts.....just my opinion. Years ago, I used to charter a boat similar to the Beneteau that I now own. The charter company had lots of issues with charterers who didn't know how to furl and unfurl the sails properly; they finally became frustrated and had the vertical battens & pockets removed.

sail sfbay · Apr 18, 2020

FrostyBeverage said:
..............I was hoping to get other owners experience with vertical battens. I would really like to purchase the larger sail, but don't want to have issues with the main when furling/unfurling it.

I installed a UK Halsey main sail with partial (I am sure you are talking "partial") vertical battens on my Hunter 386 and sailed with it for many years solo and with limited crew. Just need to be extra careful when unfurling the main sail out of the mast to avoid the sail fluffing up and getting stuck. I am sure you know to release the vang and main sheet and maintain the boat on a slight tack to use the wind to assist bring the sail out (starboard tack as my sail unfurls clockwise) and tension on the "furl in" continuous line when unfurling and when furling the sail back into the mast maintain the same tack to use the wind to keep the sail tight as it furls in (counter clockwise in my case) and with tension on the outhaul to ensure it furls in tight. Refer to page 14 of the Spars manual attached.

I recently received a quote from UK Halsey for a new main sail with partial vertical battens.

sail sfbay · Apr 18, 2020

I other thing you can do is have the sail SailkotePlus treated by Vacuwash to aid in unfurling and furling. I had that done after a few years.

SailkotePlus

We have done this after a customer in thongs had his foot slip off the brake pedal on the way out, also if you have been into the Vacuwash factory you will note that the floor is as slippery as the...

www.vacuwash.com.au

Davidasailor26 · Apr 18, 2020

Our 2014 37 came with a Neil Pryde RF main with the flat partial vertical battens. No significant issues from the battens. Occasionally we’ll have a jam unfurling the sail but only if we’re not careful about keeping the wind off it.

We don’t have the non-Velcro batten pockets BigEasy mentioned. Our pockets have Velcro along the leading edge and are not great. Need to have at least two pockets restitched every couple seasons. I asked a Neil Pryde rep at the boat show a couple years ago if there was a better design. He said no, but maybe he didn’t understand the system I have.

BigEasy · Apr 18, 2020

Davidasailor26 said:
We don’t have the non-Velcro batten pockets BigEasy mentioned. Our pockets have Velcro along the leading edge and are not great. Need to have at least two pockets restitched every couple seasons. I asked a Neil Pryde rep at the boat show a couple years ago if there was a better design. He said no, but maybe he didn’t understand the system I have.

I used a Neil Pryde loft in Seabrook, TX (Cameron Sails, 281-326-5566). They modified my existing mainsail.
This was approximately 6 years ago, however, my understanding was that the modification was a change in design by Neil Pryde. Perhaps it was a mod that Cameron Sails developed. In any event, they used a thinner batten and replaced the batten pockets. The batten is no longer inserted from the upper part of the sail. The opening slot for the batten is midway along the length of the vertical pocket; the batten is flexible enough to enable it to be inserted and bent into the upper & lower length of the pocket. Once the batten is in place, it lies flat and sort of locks into the pocket without the need for Velcro closures. Results in a very flat profile. Haven't had any issues with the pocket stitching and the sail definitely furls/unfurls better with no jamming at the battens.

Davidasailor26 · Apr 18, 2020

BigEasy said:
The opening slot for the batten is midway along the length of the vertical pocket; the batten is flexible enough to enable it to be inserted and bent into the upper & lower length of the pocket. Once the batten is in place, it lies flat and sort of locks into the pocket without the need for Velcro closures. Results in a very flat profile.

Mine goes into the pocket the same way as yours, but the front of the pocket is Velcro (except the top and bottom, which is stitched). Looks like this -

The red highlight is where the Velcro Is. Green is the top and bottom where the batten flexes in. Problem is that the Velcro lets go, and then the place where the Velcro meets the stitching begins to tear.

I’ve tried using some sail tape to hold the Velcro if it starts to give up mid-season. That still isn’t a perfect solution though, and eventually it ends up looking like this -

Still, despite the unsightly appearance it worked fine and didn’t jam in the mast; it just needs repairs every couple winters.

Mechone · Apr 18, 2020

I just received my new main sail from precision sail. I went thru the same thoughts increase the roach by adding vertical battens. I went to Neil Pryde , UK ,North and Precision . I talked on the phone and North was at our club .
My slot is only 5/8 wide, and all of them said don't do it except for North. As the sail stretch's the battens are not vertical and will jam and chafe on pockets,they all told me that.Even Quantum Sails in an article the truth about furling mains says dont do it ,go to a tri radial,better performance
Precision talked me into a tri-radial sail ,using Fibercon pro radial cloth. I haven't installed it due to virus but I can tell one it is allot better sail than the Neil Pryde it is replacing ,It's like a laminate and there is re enforcement every where .The sheave for the outhaul is twice the size and is ball bearing, time will tell

shemandr · Apr 18, 2020

I've posted about this before regarding my H356. When I bought the boat in 2004 or so it had full length vertical battens which were round. They were a little too thick. I had a lot of trouble with them. After a talk with my sailmaker he suggested that I go with partial length vertical battens but with a newer flatter design (He said "Vertical battens 2.0"). It made a world of difference in the performance of the reefing system. But I never fell in love with main sail roller reefing. I hated those round battens! They carved up my dodger window when they escaped the bottom pocket enclosure, which they did with ease every year.

shemandr · Apr 18, 2020

Ah, a moment of clarity. Reading Mechone's post I realized that when ever I furled my furling main with the round full length vertical battens they would NEVER enter the mast evenly top to bottom. It didn't matter what tack I was on, vang this or that for boom angle or out haul tension. It was stretch! It varies from top to bottom. The full length batten will never enter the slot evenly.

sail sfbay · Apr 18, 2020

Ditch the full battened sail and replace with a partial battened sail?

shemandr · Apr 18, 2020

sail sfbay said:
Ditch the full battened sail and replace with a partial battened sail?

I ditched the full battens and got flatter ones. Then due to the Great Recession, I sold the boat. Who would have thought those were the good old days?

BigEasy · Apr 18, 2020

Davidasailor26 said:
Mine goes into the pocket the same way as yours, but the front of the pocket is Velcro (except the top and bottom, which is stitched). Looks like this - View attachment 177749

The red highlight is where the Velcro Is. Green is the top and bottom where the batten flexes in.

David,
I have no vertical pocket opening & Velcro depicted on the forward edge of the pocket as shown in orange on your photo.
My pocket has a horizontal slot is midway between the pocket ends shown in green on your photo. As I mentioned I had the modification done about 6 years ago and haven't had any problems whatsoever. If I can get a decent photo next time I am on the boat,
I will forward it to you.

Mechone,
What was the cost differential between conventional cloth with vertical battens vs the Fibercon pro radial cloth?
As I mentioned, I haven't had any problems with my Neil Pryde sail since it was modified. Can't figure that Neil Pryde is "in the dark" on the mod that was done on my sail. Perhaps the modification is a design that Cameron Sails developed...in any case it works great. The owner of the loft told my that he has lots of Beneteau customers, around the Seabrook / kemah areas of greater Houston, who had issues with the vertical battens on their Neil Pryde sails. The thinner battens and redesigned pockets have solved most of their furling problems. I was somewhat skeptical; however, I have been very pleased with the results. BTW, this is an older sail that is now 13 years old.

Andrew,
The thin battens that I am using now are not full length. I certainly agree with your point that as the sail stretches the batten is not going to enter the mast parallel to mast slot...….definitely a problem (jam) in the making.

DrJudyB · Apr 18, 2020

The folks at Neil Pryde make beautiful furling mainsails, IMO. Their designs and construction methods are first rate.

However, NP makes sails out of different grades of sailcloth, at different price points. If you buy a lower grade of cloth to save money, it will not hold its shape as long. If it’s stretched out, it will jam when furling and unfurling.

Old furling mainsails don’t furl smoothly after they have stretched past a certain point. They get bunched up and are prone to jamming.

sail sfbay · Apr 18, 2020

Curious what the OP's plan is based on the forum feedback.

DrJudyB · Apr 18, 2020

It’s desirable to have thin, non-bulky, low stretch furling mainsails. If you want good performance, consider a relatively inexpensive load path membrane made with a durable but inexpensive polyester strings. It holds its shape well and isn’t bulky.

Mechone · Apr 19, 2020

BigEasy said:
David,
I have no vertical pocket opening & Velcro depicted on the forward edge of the pocket as shown in orange on your photo.
My pocket has a horizontal slot is midway between the pocket ends shown in green on your photo. As I mentioned I had the modification done about 6 years ago and haven't had any problems whatsoever. If I can get a decent photo next time I am on the boat,
I will forward it to you.

Mechone,
What was the cost differential between conventional cloth with vertical battens vs the Fibercon pro radial cloth?
As I mentioned, I haven't had any problems with my Neil Pryde sail since it was modified. Can't figure that Neil Pryde is "in the dark" on the mod that was done on my sail. Perhaps the modification is a design that Cameron Sails developed...in any case it works great. The owner of the loft told my that he has lots of Beneteau customers, around the Seabrook / kemah areas of greater Houston, who had issues with the vertical battens on their Neil Pryde sails. The thinner battens and redesigned pockets have solved most of their furling problems. I was somewhat skeptical; however, I have been very pleased with the results. BTW, this is an older sail that is now 13 years old.

Andrew,
The thin battens that I am using now are not full length. I certainly agree with your point that as the sail stretches the batten is not going to enter the mast parallel to mast slot...….definitely a problem (jam) in the making.

The cost difference was about 400.00 more , you actually talk to the designer of your sail . I changed the logo to the newer Beneteau with 351 underneath.

cstonedent · Apr 27, 2020

I have a 2002 B311, wanted new sails for same reason. I worked with UK sails, they had a cruising laminate with vertical partial battens called CXI tri radial design which are the best investment I have made for the boat. No problems with furling in or out. As I am part of a sailing club, the boat was slightly quicker than a friends boat. With the new sails, there is now a significant advantage over his boat. Only evidence I have for perceived increase in performance. I would not change anything about these sails. Also choose vertical battens in the foresail.

New mainsail question for a 2005 Beneteau 323 furling mainsail

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