New Boat Purchase

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Jul 20, 2005
2,422
Whitby 55 Kemah, Tx
Due to the recent post about a purchase of a new Hunter and the problems the new owner had, I thought I'd ask this question:

If you were buying a new boat and spending at least several thousand dollars on it, wouldn't it make sense that as a new buyer and knowing how boats are made, that we would require the boat pass an inspection of a surveyer that we choose before sale is completed? We do that for used boats, so why shouldn't we do that for new boats? Espeically if we can get the surveyer's cost wrapped up into the loan if buying on credit.

I can understand dealers not wanting to push that as it may provide them with more work, but if we sailors started talking amoungst ourselves and make it a standard practice, I think two things will happen; we will enjoy our boats a lot more and boat manufactures will be forced to step up their quality. Dealers may try to resist adding the survey to the loan but if we threaten to walk away they will change their tune.

Thoughts?
 

CalebD

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Jun 27, 2006
1,479
Tartan 27' 1967 Nyack, NY
I am totally with Franklin on this one after reading that other thread about the 'new' Hunter 33. Get a surveyor that is not at all associated with any dealer - probably the better surveyors are associated with insurance companies rather then free wheels.
I have never bought a new boat either but I think that Franklin is also right about buying used boats that have already been broken in. They cost a lot less too.
 
Sep 8, 2009
171
Island Packet 31 Cutter/Centerboard Federal Point Yacht Club, Carolina Beach, NC
1
 
Last edited:
Sep 25, 2008
7,438
Alden 50 Sarasota, Florida
It's not uncommon to have a new boat surveyed, particularly in cases where, such as the example you cited, the boat is bought from a dealer not local or when you suspect the dealer isn't competent in properly commissioning the boat.

It also depends on your personal level of experience in doing your own survey and thorough sea trial prior to accepting delivery.

Many folks negotiate with the dealer to escrow a certain percentage of the total purchase price pending a shakedown cruise.

There are a myriad of ways to ensure you avoid the commissioning woes which are inevitable if you take the time to adequately think out the purchase scenario.
 

KD3PC

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Sep 25, 2008
1,069
boatless rainbow Callao, VA
Although the surveyor is a good idea, one that I have used successfully with a new Beneteau. I must point out that other manufacturers will simply not allow a surveyor to be used on their new boats as a "term" in the contract.

You can bring one aboard, but his comments and findings will have no bearing on that manufacturer or his contract. An old New Zealand boat salesman (since passed) once said about this, "you kind of have to wonder what they maker is afraid of him finding".

Similarly this manufacturer has a one year warranty on his boats, with ALL claim work having to be done at his facility...not bad if you are nearby, pretty much sucks if you are down the bay.

As Don says, there are lots of ways to insure the majority of things get done, you have to ASK, get the paperwork in line, and be prepared to PAY for those things that are simply upgrades or custom work.

You really can't and shouldn't expect a dealer/manufacturer to upgrade every system when you have bought the boat the way YOU want it, and it fails to perform adequately. Do your homework andd if that means getting a surveyor or architect, designer or marine engineer to make sure...
 
G

Guest

My wife and I purchased a new boat 10 years ago. As part of the purchase agreement I withheld 10% until the boat was commissioned and passed survey and sea trial. Just like if I was buying a used boat. My reasoning was should the boat have problems they would be taken care under the warranty, However, It would be done on the dealer Schedule, not mine. I didn't want to buy a new boat and have it sitting at the dealer dock for a month or two while they are "getting around" to solve a problem.

While we were going back and forth on the boat price, I lower the final price by $750 to pay for the survey.. Of course the Dealer protested but he wanted to sell a boat. I am glad we did it this way, even though we did not have problems. I also think we did not have problems because he wanted to get paid quickly and they were very careful commissioning the boat.
 
Dec 19, 2006
5,832
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
Not perfect

Well I am sorry but I bought two new boats and yes they were both out of state,one in Virginia and one in CT while I was living in NY,you just need to make sure you do not leave the dealer until you are sure every thing is the way it should be.
You need to do what ever it takes to check every thing and make sure the dealer did the same,you don't put the boat in the water and than sail home,we took our boat out for a test sail a few times and did sailing lesson's on it for a week and every thing was good,when it was sailed to NY a month later I found a leak and Hunter paid the full cost of hauling it and repairing it.
I did the same with my 2007 H-36,the salesman took me and my wife out sailing for a test sail until we were happy it all was good to take home and before we took the test sail the head service guy went over every piece of equipment with us which took some 5 hours.
I think mistakes were were made shipping the boat to Florida,I think that's where every thing got crazy and the dealer and Hunter are doing what ever it takes to correct the problems.
Many buyers of Hunters are very happy with their boats and did not have so many problems because they did their home work buying a new boat.
I would not think twice to have a survey on a used boat but not new buts that me and I am sure many other buyers of new boats.
Their are many Hunter owners would buy new again,I have heard too many crazy stories of people buying used and always working on this boat trying to get it wright,Yes I used to buy used cars any trucks and repair them all the time but now I can pay the big $$$$ for new and not work on it and go sailing so much more,I am sorry I like new and every one loves to go sailing with me on my new Hunter because it is a beautiful sailboat and every thing works great,we are retired and this is my dream boat.
You get so much Boat for the money from Hunter and no matter what you read Hunter does the wright thing so that they keep having return buyers.
Nick :dance:
I am sorry it's time to go sailing today have a nice day :dance:
 

Sailm8

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Feb 21, 2008
1,750
Hunter 29.5 Punta Gorda
Nick,
Saw your boat at Burnt Store a few weeks ago, slip near the pool. Good looking boat.
Will be at Boca Grande this weekend. Haven't been on the boat in 3 weeks and can't wait.
 

RichH

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Feb 14, 2005
4,773
Tayana 37 cutter; I20/M20 SCOWS Worton Creek, MD
Franklin -
Sure not only a surveyor (that you pay for), but also setting up escrow accounts, specified penalty $$$ deducts for delivery/acceptance beyond a specified date, etc. etc. It all depends on how you write the CONTRACT and what the purchaser and the seller/dealer, etc. will agree to.
For any boat costing more than a 'few $1000' one has to be totally out of their mind buying a boat without a full written out contact of what's expected. So too if the dealer makes you sign his proposed (form) contract you should carefully review and CROSS OUT & initial any part of the 'contract' that is or seems objectionable to you and ADD those clauses that are important to you.

Its totally 'a lawyer-shyster world' nowadays and if you dont play that game, you are probably going to lose. (the days of handshake contracts, long ago disappeared .... in inverse proportion to the amount of shysters being squeezed out by the law schools).
 

Phil Herring

Alien
Mar 25, 1997
4,923
- - Bainbridge Island
Hunter and surveys of new boats

I was curious what Hunter would have to say about a pre-delivery survey so I called Eddie Breeden this morning.

He told me they encourage it because they'd rather make it right during commissioning and have a happier customer when the boat is delivered.

Talking to Eddie reminds me why I like these guys so much.

Personally, I agree with Franklin that a survey is necessary for any new boat. Boats aren't built by robots and people make mistakes. The systems in new boats are complex parts come dozens of suppliers. It's nothing like a new car. Components are almost never designed for specific boat models.

There's a lot to test and having an objective pair of professional eyes only makes sense.
 

KD3PC

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Sep 25, 2008
1,069
boatless rainbow Callao, VA
Phil and the Group

I did the same with a Beneteau dealer who took over the one I bought from and got the same response. We would be "happy to work with you or your surveyor to make sure we get things right the first time, and delivered promptly". We also talked about the cost of multiple service calls and how many times the surveyor cuts those down as well, especially when the boat is at the owners slip.

Thanks Phil for the call

dave
 
Dec 19, 2006
5,832
Hunter 36 Punta Gorda
Sailm8

Hi I may be out this Friday or Saturday,we need to meet one of these days,where do you slip yours.
Went out today with light wind and very hot but was great just got back.
Are you going to the Boca Marina,I have never been every thing is new here for me.
Nick
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,709
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
I sureveyed

I surveyed our 2005 Catalina pre-delivery and found a number of issues. We also held back 7k in escrow until all repairs were completed. Was a simple and painless process. Just because it is "new" does not mean it should not have a survey..
 
Sep 22, 2009
134
Hunter 36 Seattle, WA
OK, now I'm nervous. I'm accepting delivery today of a brand new 2009 Hunter 36, and I opted out of a survey because when I interviewed a surveyor, he told me that typically the most he would find (and recommend I look for myself) would be gel-coat inconsistencies. That said, the dealer comes HIGHLY recommended (Signature Yachts here in Seattle), and insists on our spending time (2-5 days) at the boat on their docks and under sail checking out all of the systems. The commissioning yard owner gave me some great recommendation on what to look for, and was pleased to hear that our salesperson encouraged making lists of things we wanted adjusted/repaired.
Any advice I get from you all in the next 3-5 days would be much appreciated.
 
Feb 26, 2004
23,047
Catalina 34 224 Maple Bay, BC, Canada
Check everything, assume nothing

You wrote: Any advice I get from you all in the next 3-5 days would be much appreciated.

Take it step by step and don't get intimidated. We have NO idea what your sailing or boating background is, so can't tell you how much you need to learn. If you're gonna spend 2 to 5 days, make them count! It's up to you.

Go to a chandlery, and look at Calder's Cruising Handbook. At the end of section 1 is a checklist, maybe four pages. Get a copy and use it. Or find one on the internet (Google boating checklists) and use that.

You already were told and understand that you need to write everything down, that's good. Take a camera, and use it.

Don't forget each and every, I mean every, hose clamp.

Pretend you're a surveyor. 'Cuz you are!
 

Phil Herring

Alien
Mar 25, 1997
4,923
- - Bainbridge Island
FWIW, we used to share offices with Signature and you couldn't be in better hands. We watched their day to day operations for years and I'm sure they'll take good care of you.
 

Les

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May 8, 2004
375
Hunter 27 Bellingham, WA
I've bought ten new sailing boats in my lifetime--maybe I'll yet buy one more. Who knows. My last new boat was from Signature Yachts in Seattle...it is a Hunter 27. I'm downsizing from a Hunter 380 (which I also bought from Signature).

As an academic I tend to observe and then want to classify things as I go. When you buy a new boat it is not just the dealer you deal with. First, there are the people at the plant as they build your boat. They can leave off stuff you ordered but they may as well put on stuff you didn't order. It's a grab bag of sorts. Then there is the trucking company. My boat went from Florida to the Chesapeake to San Diego and then to Seattle where it waited over the weekend. The dealers and the owners are sometimes totally surprised to see what they got.

And then there is the ship yard. I have spent much time observing how a ship yard works--just sitting in my car watching them deal with my boat as well as others. It is my profession opinion that most yard workers are A.D.S. (Attention Deficit Syndrome). I am not being negative here, probably that is why they like doing their work--they can concentrate on doing it and no one bothers them. And they are good at what they do! But if I were to talk to one of them it throws them off their concentration. Most of the yard workers are outstanding because they have been doing this for sometime, perhaps years. So if you want something different, you may have to leave notes taped to the hull or something like that. I wanted a different bottom paint on my new boat and the day it was removed from the truck they painted it with what they always paint new boats with. It had to be removed and my bottom paint bought and applied. But that took over a week to rectify.

Once the boat is ordered and sold to you, normally another person at the dealership takes over. In my case, Casey supervises the yards, buys the extra equipment, and in general makes sure the new owner is getting what he ordered and wants.

And then there are the subcontractors who have their own idea of what should be done to the boat. I wanted a dodger made with special requirements. The dodger contractor, who is one of the best around the Puget Sound, had other ideas. But also Hunter when they designed this boat probably never thought about this boat having a dodger. Neither cabin top winches can work with a dodger in place. Modifications had to be made--sometimes there is no solution. You live with it. The dodger contractor has won awards and that is what he is thinking--he wants the dodger to look good and he too has made many dodgers so he does what he thinks is correct. So everybody has to give and take a bit.

Yes, I know I spent a lot of money over the years on my boats. I even commissioned one of my boats myself and know the amount of work that needs to be accomplished. I kept track this time and there were five guys at the ship yard, four from the dealership, two more independent marine contractors once I got the boat here in Bellingham, and two electricians for the replacement of the battery charger which failed in the first year. With that many people working it will always be a slip up somewhere down the line. And I didn't count the number of great sales people at West Marine. They love to see me coming in....

I still don't have the perfect boat that I aimed for. I'm having problems with the roller furling and the spinnaker halyard still doesn't have a shackle on the end. However, the dealership has been working with me and I suspect we'll get it all taken care of sometime in the future. It is my estimation that it takes six months to a year to get a boat functional. Not perfect but useable.

I have a theory (this is an academic writing) that most of the world works at about 60/40 percent rate. Sixty percent good, 40 percent slippage....not bad, just not what we wanted. I'm happy with sixty percent right now. Even when I sail my new boat now I'm probably at sixty percent efficient and I dream about forty percent. "Come on, Les, pull up on that traveler", or "Watch the telltales, dummy."

As I reread this it is not well written and for that I apologize. I am totally amazed that one could buy a boat from one dealer several states away and have it commissioned in another part of the country. For that I would have to adjust my theory to 50/50? But you know I have bought five Hunters sailboats. All of them have been taken care of eventually by the company. I have a lot of respect for them. And I'm sure they will make sure you will have a good boat as well. Good luck..
 
Sep 8, 2009
171
Island Packet 31 Cutter/Centerboard Federal Point Yacht Club, Carolina Beach, NC
Ahoy Les,

It's obvious you are gifted, and very intellectually talented, and apparently financially capable of purchasing many new sailboats. One of posters to this forum stated sailboats can be classified as good and better. Why would you buy ten new sailboats, with a Hunter 27 being your current sailboat. It's not trailerable, so it's must be docked or moored. A Hunter 27 is a good sailboat, however it's not a better sailboat like an Island Packet 27.

Could you please explain how you came to the decision to purchase a good Hunter rather than a better Island Packet! I've never understood why sailors purchase the sailboat they do. It's a decision based on financial resources and personal preference. What I don't understand is why would a sailor purchase a good quality sailboat, when they could buy a better quality sailboat, even if the better quality sailboat is older? Is it a lack of intellectual understanding regarding the quality of sailboats? Fair weather!

David
 
Jun 18, 2009
35
Hunter 170 Ottawa
Sorry just getting caught up on this thread. I can't help but share my thoughts when I read the comment about Eddie Breeden. Talking to Eddie reminds me of why I DISLIKE these guys so much. He's the guy who said he would fix my defective Hunter 170 if I paid to SHIP it to Florida and back. Shipping a boat is very expensive. He is the one who told the small claims judge that my boat had depreciated 90% in 9 years. He is the guy who blamed ME for the mysterious winter cracking of my hull even though dozens of this forum's readers have had the same problem. So, Franklin, take what "Eddie" says with a very BIG grain of salt and maybe start looking at another manufacturer's option.
 

Phil Herring

Alien
Mar 25, 1997
4,923
- - Bainbridge Island
So wunderbr, some questions for you:

1. How old was the boat when you made the claim?

2. Was the boat in or out of warranty when they offered to repair it?

3. Why would the judge rely on Hunter's estimate of value? They're an interested party to the claim and besides, boat values are easily determined by objected sources. Did you not provide a third party valuation of the boat? I guess that's rhetorical question, but on that point I think your issue is with the judge.
 
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