Need help with refinishing deck plan

[CloudDiver]

In the spirit of previous posts, that the keel is in excellent shape and should require minimal work & cost, let me offer this approach (which can be modified of course).

You don't seem to have major issues of rust like some of us have, but we also don't know what could be hidden under the existing paint. We also have to consider your plans for next year, sailing in salt water for extended periods... so we want to do it right and not have any lingering worries.

I would still recommend sand blasting the keel. This is the only way to be sure there is no hidden damage that will bite you in the butt later. Plus, you really can't underestimate how tedious it is to get cast iron really clean with sanding or wire brushes on a grinder. Its miserable and you will never really get it all out of the pores.

Sealing method 1 - use a gallon of Interlux Interprotect 2000. Immediately after sand blasting get the keel hung up and wash down with acetone then paint with multiple coats of Interprotect. If any minor fairing is required it can be done in between coats 1 and 2, you want to make sure you cover any fairing filler with several coats of barrier coat. The last coat allow to dry touch but still put a finger print in and apply your choice of anti-fouling paint. You shouldn't have to sand anything but the fairing filler in this process.

Sealing method 2, use only 1 quart of epoxy and the 1 quart kit of InterProtect 2000. Same as above, sand blast the keel and get it hung up asap and splash down with acetone. Get one coat of un-thickened epoxy on, let it kick off and get firm enough to be dry to the touch but still make a fingernail mark in. Apply any fairing filler required, hopefully not too much. Let Cure, sand to correct shape and then apply a second coat of un-thickened epoxy. Like the first coat, let kick off but not cure and apply a coat of Interprotect. You can get three coats of Interprotect on the keel with a 1/4 nap roller from a 1 quart kit. Remember the anti-foul paint has to go on right after the last coat is touch dry but still not cured.

With either method you must make sure you are using an epoxy based fairing filler, not polyester resin based. The easiest thing to do is just buy a can of powder fairing filler to add to epoxy rather than the additional cost of a premixed can of epoxy fairing filler.

If you buy a gallon of West Epoxy anyway to do other repairs with I would go with option 2 so you only need a 1 quart kit of Interprotect 2000. You would only need the gallon kit of Interprotect if you also plan to do a barrier coat on the hull as well. Being a previous fresh water boat you might not need this. Plan ahead!

 

[jmczzz]

Thanks for all input. Cloud your read on the situation shows forward thinking. I got no history on the boat from the PO other than It was in the Chesapeake Bay North of Norfolk VA when I picked it up. He had only had it for less than a yr and had the keel wench, cable, volcano replaced and new wires for lights run. I put it in fresh water last spring and enjoyed it as is until last Oct.
It seems my intended future use has a lot to do with which way to go with the keel. Just go back to the fresh water Marina for the season or my bigger plan of a FL and Great Loop year or so. My instincts are to do a complete job. However I would like to use it now and for the summer.
I think I need to do an exploratory chip off of the few small spots of rust visible to see how it looks underneath. I'll take some close up photos and post. Hopefully get some more input.
Thanks all, James

 

[CloudDiver]

In that case, just sand where it seems to be needed and repaint. Worry about your deck job now, knock it out, and enjoy the summer sailing. Get back to the big keel job after you haul out in the fall if you intend to do your Keys and Great Loop sail next year. Chances are you won't hurt anything this summer and you'll learn a lot more about your boat that will want to change or upgrade for your big trip.

Thanks for all input. Cloud your read on the situation shows forward thinking. I got no history on the boat from the PO other than It was in the Chesapeake Bay North of Norfolk VA when I picked it up. He had only had it for less than a yr and had the keel wench, cable, volcano replaced and new wires for lights run. I put it in fresh water last spring and enjoyed it as is until last Oct.
It seems my intended future use has a lot to do with which way to go with the keel. Just go back to the fresh water Marina for the season or my bigger plan of a FL and Great Loop year or so. My instincts are to do a complete job. However I would like to use it now and for the summer.
I think I need to do an exploratory chip off of the few small spots of rust visible to see how it looks underneath. I'll take some close up photos and post. Hopefully get some more input.
Thanks all, James

 

[hawk232]

even left untouched, if the pin hole and eye bolt are structurally sound, you will be in no danger with your plans. lets face it, those are very short term plans! these keels have been around a LONG time with ALOT less protection than most of us are now giving them. some of them look pretty rough (mine included) but they are 40 years old!!! your plans are only in the next year or two!

folks act like at the first sign of rust the keel is going to fall off and $1000 worth of work needs to be done or you will die, its simply not true. (please note that this is not aimed at ANYONE in this thread, just the general "feel" of all the keel threads that I have been a part of)

 

[jmczzz]

I agree we tend to over react to keel issues. I did the full keel trip on a Mac-25. Mostly a waste of time and $. Wound up not liking the boat and sold it.
I'm going to do some chipping and painting.
I’ll fix and spruce up the topside and cabin for now. The keel’s not going anywhere.

What do you guys think about the pin? The visible ends look ok just stuck in the keel off center by about an inch. There is not any rust bleed thru around it visible. Any insights on getting it unstuck. I have the new style hangers’ kit to install, but imagine the pin off center may be a problem.
thanks, James

 

[CloudDiver]

If the Pin if off center by that much it could be bad news. Since it is stuck it will not turn in the pin hole, only the ends will turn in the hangers. With it being that much off center it will grind on one side harder than the other. That may be a job you want to tackle now, since it probably makes your keel swing off center of the intended arc.

 

[$tingy Sailor]

James,

Look way up inside your keel trunk. It should not have any scrapes from the keel being off center like this...

If it does, then you need to either center the pin or install centering shims on the keel to keep it from scraping.

 

[jmczzz]

Hello All,
I started working on the keel this am. I chipped off spots that had rust stains. I took before & after pics. There was not to many spots a couple where I had hit something and cracked the epoxy. The epoxy isn't real thick generally. But the keel was just encapsulated not faired. It is still bumpy. However it does not seem to be as eaten away as others I have seen. My guess is the boat has spent a lot of its time in fresh water. I was able to chip around the pin on both sides. It has some rust sticking it in the hole. Rust looks to be about 1/15" to 1/8" deep. The pin is still stuck.
Stingy, There are scrapes on the keel itself down to the metal (see pic of rust streaks) These could be from prior keel lock but now there is not one. But I did not inspect up in the keel trunk. I experienced the keel bumping when trying to crank it up in the lake last summer, and it would wobble, knock and mess up the cable.
I did not use any liquid wrench or blaster on the pin because Cloud cautioned me against getting the cast iron soaked with any oily substance. But I’m not sure how to proceed with getting the old pin out. I tried to turn it with a pipe wrench with a long cheater pipe over it, no go. So I just kept chipping at the rust around and around with a small chisel and hammer not hitting it hard just enough to make rust dust from around the pin. Starboard side is about 1/8" - 3/16" in, port 1/16" - 1/8" in. Should I just keep going? Try to turn with more force on the pipe wrench? Use liquid wrench? Or?
My plan now is to replace pin, perhaps with the bushing? (Advise please) Electric wire brush spots where I chipped epoxy coat and the light surface rust away, maybe use some POR 15 on those spots or some rusty metal primer? Then recoat with epoxy. (Please advise here too)? I have a new hanger / pin / bushing kit from CD on hand. I Plan on adding the keel shims also. The wire, pad eye & toggle looks good to me just has some barnacles. But you can see the shiny metal (pics below)
Thanks a lot for all your advice and suggestions. Even if I chose to take a different course at this point, I intend to follow up on rechecking and perhaps redoing after this summer season.
I will be eager to read and consider all input and get back to work on the keel Sunday.
Again Thanks a lot to all of you for the help.
Regards, James

 

[CloudDiver]

Ok, now I understand what you mean by the pin being off center. Just one side sticks out farther on one side than the other. That is not such a big deal, rather I thought you pin hole was actually not square to the centerline of the keel.

At this point, I think you will be good to give the keel just a good sanding. The parts where you have rust just clean up with a wire brush and get as much rust off as you can. You don't need to prime before epoxy, the epoxy will stick like crazy if you get it as clean as you can. Some residual rust that is 'deep in there' won't hurt anything. Once you seal it you are cutting it off from water and oxygen and it won't continue to rust. I think you can get away with one quart of epoxy to clean up and epoxy the small damage areas, then mix up a light coat of fairing compound (using a powder light fairing additive to the epoxy like WEST 407) and give the keel a skim coat. Just smooth out what is there as best you can and don't worry if its not perfect.
Over that use your choice of primer and bottom paint. I like Interlux Interprotect 2000, and you only need one a 1 quart kit, but you don't have to use that particular product.

For the pin, you can try the Liquid Wrench if you think it will work, you will just have to get it really clean with a lot of solvent flushing after to get out any residue. I just think its too much of a risk since the cast iron is so porous. Drilling it out can work also. Look in my build thread at how I drilled out the center (center punch first, small pilot hole, then step up drill sizes). Once I got up to my larges drill bit size (5/8") I used a Sawzall to put slices in the remaining 'collar' and knocked them out with a punch. You have to be very careful if you do this as not to saw down into the iron very much past the bronze pin. Don't worry if you cut into just a little, if you are putting the stainless bushing in the hole has to be reamed out to 1.25 inch anyway.

 

[CloudDiver]

For the new Stainless Pin bushing, I can't stress enough that you need to use the correct tools for that job. Cast Iron is a pain the butt to drill properly because its so porous and basically 'crumbly' compared to drilling ductile alloys like mild steel. Besides, a 1.25 inch drill bit may not easy to come by. If you try using a drill bit, a hole saw, or grinding bits you run the risk of making a mess of the new hole hat will not be straight through, basically not square to the keel and he pin with not sit in there correctly.

I will admit up front I learned this by making that mistake to begin with, but I recognized early what could happen. My cast iron was missing so much material around the pin hole that it actually made it easier to get the hole 'close enough' and then epoxy the new bushing square by holding it in place square while it cured. Then I had to rebuild the areas of missing iron with high density micro fiber filler in epoxy which is actually stronger than steel. I was just lucky everything came out fine.

The BEST way to do this job correctly is to use a 1.25 inch tapered ream. That tool will make sure your enlarged keel pin hole is exactly the correct size and will track through straight and true. Problem is, this tool is very expensive to buy to use on just one job. You'd really want to find a source where you can borrow one or rent it for a day, and I know thats easier said than done. Hopefully you have some friends who are machinists and have access to such tools at home or at work.

If I had to recommend a different method that is more DIY friendly than getting your hands on a big tapered ream.... I would say a carbide burr bit on a die grinder and some good round files with a VERY steady hand and a good eye.

 

[jmczzz]

Cloud, Lot of sensible info in your comments. Thanks. If you look at picture # 10 above you can see my hand holding a small square next to the pin I was trying to show the pin is thru the keel at a slight angle besides being off center. I am not sure how to get the new hole 1.25" bored so it is square and / or get the bushing epoxied in square. I can figure some way to get it eyeball close but perhaps you have a technique that will work better.
Let me know.
Thanks for your input.
James

 

[CloudDiver]

Yes, in picture number 9 it also evident that the pin is not square to the centerline of the keel in either direction.

I offer this... forget about the tapered ream, all that will do is make the hole to the correct size but still follow the off center path of the hole.
- Try your Liquid Wrench to break through the rust and get that pin out. Resort to drilling/cutting if the Liquid Wrench still does not work. It may take days of liquid wrench soaking to break through all the build up.
- Don't worry about the liquid wrench residue. After you solvent wash and open the hole bigger you will get rid of any contamination anyway.
- Use the carbide bit & files method to open the hole to 1.25 inch, or whatever good tools you have on hand that you feel could work well. Have a steady hand and a good eye plus patience and try your best to get the hole a close as possible, but don't worry if it isn't perfect. You might be able to correct the squareness of the hole to a degree in this process, but don't worry if its not perfect. In general, the hole might be a little too big on one side to correct the off center problem when you epoxy the bushing in.
- Once your new hole has been created, and you can dry fit the new bushing to see where you are you can make your plan to epoxy it in and how you will brace it while the epoxy cures.
- Try to make sure your keel is sitting as level and plumb as you can. You visual frame of reference to the keel center line is important to setting your new bushing correctly.
- Find a long piece of 1 inch pipe of wood dowel that fits in the bushing the same way the pin will. Wax it lightly, I use a stick of zipper wax, Chapstick or beeswax works too. This way just in case any epoxy that touches it will not stick.
- Dry run by setting up some kind of bracing that will hold the long pipe or dowel square to the keel at is passes through with the bushing in place. Check your set up visually from several points of reference.
- When you are ready you can epoxy the bushing in place. Make sure you scuff up the outside of the bushing with rough sand paper and clean it with acetone. Your first application of epoxy really only needs to be a gob around the very center of the bushing, just enough to set it in place, don't try to cover the whole thing. Thicken the epoxy to a non-runny peanut butter with colloidal silica or high density micro-fiber filler.
- Once it is set in place and cures you've gotten past the hard part. You'll want to fill in each side separately to finish off any gar and seal the ends. I did this by waxing the actual keel pin itself and putting it in the bushing and taping off the other side to hold it up, this is with the keel laying on its side by the way. There is a good picture of it in my build thread. Thicken the epoxy with one of the same fillers listed above, but keep it liquid enough to fill in the area on its own. Once cure the waxed pin will slide right out and you can sand everything flush. You will have a perfectly sealed in bushing with a nice epoxy collar on the outside end (the CD bushing is only 1.25 inches long, and the keel will be about 1.85 inches wide). Flip the keel over to the other side and repeat this process.

 

[jmczzz]

there is a used tapered reamer on ebay cheap.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/National-1-...-4-Taper-/381096658609?_trksid=p2054897.l4275
do you think would it work after setting up a jig to get the hole square to the keel center line?
I think i was told about a right up on how to get a hole square or striaght. but i can't find anything on that?
Where or is there info on how to do this to ream keel pin hole?
thanks James

 

[CloudDiver]

James it could work... possibly. Its not a Jig that would keep the alignment, it would be a heavy tool like and end mill that would be the only thing capable of keeping the ream square as it passes through. Setting all that up is possible, but complicated. You'd have to have a connection with a good friend who would be willing to do the work cheap. If he has the right kind of heavy tools he'd probably have the 1.25 ream as well. The challenging part is setting up the keel level and plumb in a cradle that won't flex when pushed on and raising it up to the level of the cutting tool so it can make it's pass square through the keel.

Doing it in your workshop at a DIY level, I'm just afraid there is too much risk that the tool is just going to follow the off center path of the hole no matter what you do.

Maybe someone else watching this thread has a better suggestion? I'm pretty good with this stuff, but I haven't seen this type of situation before.

 

[njlarry]

thanks, this is what i found on the west site?
"Prepare the surface of the boat by cleaning the gelcoat thoroughly and filling all holes with thickened epoxy, silicone sealant or 3M 5200"
A little shy on specifics for my knowledge level. I'll search some more.
I just hate to start this without having a better feel for what i'm doing, the tools and material i'll need.
Is the dremel tool like the one sold at big box WM?
I read somewhere to drill out one size larger, counter sink and then fill with thickened epoxy.
thanks James

PLEASE do not use 5200 or you will be better off with flower arranging! Boat Life caulk of Silkaflex 921(sp?) is more than enough. Save the 5200 for your deck and hull to keel joints. You may need to make a repair someday.

 

[jmczzz]

I cut the protruding ends of the stuck keel pin off as close as I could to the keel. Started drilling a small hole in the center got about half way then the drill bit broke. So I went up to the next size I had on hand and followed that hole. It is slow going cause the broken bit end is still in there. 2-3 hrs and about 1/3 of the way thru with my small hand drill. I laid the keel down on blocks. I figure it'll take about 6 - 7 more hrs to get thru. But it is gonna happen, slow and steady. I'll figure out the next step when I get there.
Thanks, James

 

[CloudDiver]

Bronze is a soft metal that drills well at slow speeds. If it is that difficult to drill when you have the drill at too high of a speed and the bit is getting too hot, probably why the first bit broke. Also, dull drill bits multiply your difficulty.
Now you have a broken bit stuck in there which is far worse. Drill bits are hardened steel and they do not drill out easily. You gotta get that bit out of there to continue. Maybe start a new pilot hole from the other side. Try to get it dead center so that once you meet with the broken bit on the other side you can use a punch to knock out the broken end out.

I cut the protruding ends of the stuck keel pin off as close as I could to the keel. Started drilling a small hole in the center got about half way then the drill bit broke. So I went up to the next size I had on hand and followed that hole. It is slow going cause the broken bit end is still in there. 2-3 hrs and about 1/3 of the way thru with my small hand drill. I laid the keel down on blocks. I figure it'll take about 6 - 7 more hrs to get thru. But it is gonna happen, slow and steady. I'll figure out the next step when I get there.
Thanks, James

 

[jmczzz]

hi, I just went the 30 miles to town and got a couple of sizes cobalt bits. I will go from the other side.
thanks, James

 

[CloudDiver]

A little cutting oil or any lube that won't smoke also helps. Just keep the drill speed slow, around 700 rpm.

hi, I just went the 30 miles to town and got a couple of sizes cobalt bits. I will go from the other side.
thanks, James

 

[jmczzz]

My electric drill only has one speed, to fast. I did get a pilot hole all the way thru. but the bigest cobalt bit has stoped cutting. I guess the speed is to high and or I have already dulled it up going to fast. I have been just useing burst of the drill not steady spin. I will go back out now and try my battery powered drill driver it can be greared down if it is not to late for the big bit. I guess I can go back to town and buy anouther one cause I have no idea how to sharpen one. Is it something I can do on a grinding disk or a not very strong wheel I use to sharpen the hoe and swing blade?
James