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Sailgunner · Nov 3, 2019

Go to a major boat show and visit the vendors. Talk it through with them and pick a system you like. You are talking significant boat units so gather all the information before making a decision.

dlochner · Nov 3, 2019

We went with an all B&G system, Triton2 instruments, Zeus2 MFD, NAC2 AP computer, and 4 G radar. B&G has a long history providing sailing instruments and was/is the predominant choice for the Volvo Racers and other elite racers. I don't race, however their experience and commitment to the sport has benefits. Their tech support via phone is good, their tech support via email, not so much. Simrad and Lowrance products are basically the same as B&G products except for the market orientation; B&G for sailboats, Simrad for powerboats, Lowrance for fishing. The Lowrance products generally do not have the same features as the Simrad and B&G, they are built for a lower price point.

Since being acquired by FLIR a few years ago Raymarine seems to have gotten their act together. There was a period time where the future of Raymarine was in doubt. Many people are happy with RM instruments.

Garmin is late to the game. They have a good reputation in the avionics industry, however, I find their interfaces clunky and difficult to use. I've had a Garmin MFD and a handheld GPS. Over the past few years they seem to have taken a greater interest in the recreational marine market. They have acquired Active Captain and I believe a few other businesses in that market.

The current generation of radars are outstanding. The 4G radar is low power and fires up quickly. It will pick up birds flying a couple miles away. I would avoid touchscreen only models. Trying to use them while steering and bouncing along, can be a challenge. Wet screens and wet fingers also make it difficult to control. B&G had an App that mirrors the MFD screen. That's real handy if the MFD is mounted at the helm. Others on the boat can see the MFD from any where. We use it when the AP is driving. We can sit up under the dodger and stay dry and comfortable and monitor the boat's progress.

Last spring I was helping a fellow sailor with this same decision, one salesperson at a well known national big box marine retailer claimed that the B&G Link app didn't work. So, I made this short video. The only function that does not work on the APP are the AP controls, for good reason.

In the end, I think it is mostly a personal choice about features and ease of use, and I think the only choice is between B&G and RM. Garmin is too new to the game. Go to a boat show or store and use the devices. Check out Panbo's site. Talk to fellow sailors. It's a long winter.

Captain Larry-DH · Nov 3, 2019

I dealt with this a few months ago (due to lighting strike). Your autopilot still works in manual mode so your drive motor is good. Thats the biggest headache for replacement so IMHO keep it and upgrade only the electronic elements. If your speed and depth sensors are still good you can also use them with new i50/i60 Raymarine displays. That also saves you from having to run new sensor wires from the bilge to the displays. So if that’s acceptable to you, you just saved more than half of your installation labor.
You can get a new gen Raymarine ACU and heading sensor for the AP and i70 control head. So that means you need to run a new SeaTalkNG cable between ACU and heading sensor, and you would need to run SeatalkNG between all the new display heads and the ACU. If your boat has conduits you can use the old Seatalk cables to pull the new ones (you may need to cut off a connector to feed a cable and splice the wire back together but no worries about that, it works just fine).
Raymarine sells a SeatalkNG to NMEA2000 converter so you'r free to get whatever brand of CP you wish. Your CP will receive heading data over that connection (for radar overlay) and may control the AP. (Emphasis on the word “may”). Navico (B&G, Simrad, Lowrance) does not play well with Raymarine. Of course, if you stay with one brand you won’t have that question. You should get whatever radar goes with your CP, as a package, and you will also need to run new wire for the radar cable. I’m using a B&G CP and B&G radar with Raymarine AP and instruments.
Good luck.

jssailem · Nov 3, 2019

As always @dlochner lays it out.

On all this.

On the water the dials and buttons you can touch come in handy when you need them.

Spend a little time playing with the screen interface. You may find while all of the systems display the same information (a radar blip is a radar blip) the way the display translates that information to you can be different. What data is displayed together. You see the blip. Is the AIS data and the DSC data displayed when you select a target. Does the display show calculated CPA and TCPA or do you need to jump 2 screens down to get this critical data. In a crossing track with visibility near zero such info might be helpful instantly.

Make your choice. Install it. Then go out on the water on a clear day and practice with it as if the fog is so thick you can’t see your fingers on your hand.

Captain Larry-DH · Nov 3, 2019

One more tip - sell your old stuff on eBay. The value of used gear is surprising because people who have one failed device will pay for working used gear that's compatible rather than do a complete upgrade their whole system to new gen gear. I have have bought and sold stuff there.
Another installation tip - if your new instruments mounting holes are different, you can put in a new panel over the old one. I used opaque white acrylic backed with very thin 2-sided 3M VHB adhesive. You can also use brushed aluminum sheet or black acrylic, or thin Starboard sheet.

Davidasailor26 · Nov 3, 2019

+1 for B&G gear. All works well together, or mixed with other Navico equipment. We have a B&G Zeus3 along with a Simrad VHF, instruments, and Autopilot controller. All works quite well. The nice upgrade from the Zeus2 to the Zeus3 is that the 3 has completely redundant buttons, so you don't need to use the touch screen if conditions don't allow it. Although under a bimini we've never had too much moisture on the screen to give any problems with touch. The Link app does work well, although we don't use it much when actually on the water, mostly just when we're in the cabin to see things like wind speeds.

dlochner · Nov 3, 2019

Captain Larry-DH said:
One more tip - sell your old stuff on eBay. The value of used gear is surprising because people who have one failed device will pay for working used gear that's compatible rather than do a complete upgrade their whole system to new gen gear.

Get creative with the funding.

When I purchased my stuff, I got a great deal on a 12" Zeus with 4G radar, then sold the 12" Zeus, an old Garmin MFD and Sirius satellite radio for close to the purchase price of the radar and Zeus. Later bought the Zeus2 when they gave a rebate. In the end, the cost for the Zeus2 and 4G turned out be just a little over $2K. About a $1.5K less than most dealers were selling the same package.

SG · Nov 3, 2019

Stratus3:

Before providing some advice, what kind of sailing? Tell us more

Racing, performance cruising, casual cruising, or?
Where do you sail?
Overnights?
Single handed or with a bunch of crew. Do the other crew members share your interest in information?
Autopilot? Use apparent wind much? Do you interface with routes?
Radar? Use it?
AIS? do you care?
Displays only up at the helm? or do you use the nav station, too.
How much power are you prepared to dedicate to electronics? What's available?
How much money do you want to spend?

Tell us a bit about your situation and desires.

Pizzazz · Nov 3, 2019

Most people stay with their original vendor because of the instruments. Upgrading instruments is usually difficult, especially mast head wind sensors. My advice would be to figure out what sensors work, then go from there. In your case, I would recommend:
- Check your wind sensor, if it is the masthead unit, you can just replace it
- Get the latest Evolution pilot that is hydraulically capable
- Get an Axiom with the Quantum radar (low power, medium performance) or Color HD radar (high power, great long-range)
- Learn (or pay) how to integrate all of this into a new network

If you decide to check other brands: B&G, Lowrance and Simrad are different brands of Navico, all the essential features are the same, so I suggest you buy the lowest price brand which is Lowrance. They do attempt to differentiate their products through software tricks which is kind of cheap, so check the manuals. Garmin is great but it is a different menus, etc. You need to play around with it in the store to figure out if it appeals to you.

WayneH · Nov 3, 2019

The original instruments on Impetuous were Signet sailing instruments and a Garmin Chartplotter with the datacard. We upgraded to the B&G instruments with the Vulcan display. Our unit came with the wind instruments and the triducer DST. An important feature for us was the built in WiFi. The MFD is mounted to the navigation station down below but our tablet hangs off the bimini above and forward of the helm. The Admiral loves it as she can change displays easily. I love it because we got rid of the three 4" holes where the old Signet displays were mounted.

leo310 · Nov 3, 2019

I'm doing the same thing as you but not at the same time. The only thing I have done is started a NMEA 2000 network as MFD, AIS, VHF Radio and AP all require NMEA 2000. The biggest thing is when you bite the bullet remember to pull all the wires that are not needed. What I have found is 3 instruments now only use 1 network line to the MFD not like before where each one would have its own line back to the instrument.

dlochner · Nov 3, 2019

Stratus3 said:
Thank you all, Looks like modern equipment is fairly even across the board.what it comes down to personal preference with the interaction

Technically, in our price ranges, the differences in accuracy are pretty trivial. While I haven't priced things out lately, the cost for similar equipment is also trivial. For some things, like transducers, everyone uses Airmar transducers.

There are differences in features, even within product lines. In the Navico line, B&G offers a several sailing specific features that are not available on Simrad or Lowrance. And while Lowrance basically uses the same hardware as Simrad and B&G the software may be more limited.

One aspect to consider is how well the system plays with other systems. B&G/Simrad have standard NMEA 2000 connectors, this makes integrating B&G/Simrad devices with other product lines quite easy. I have a Vesper Marine XB8000 AIS that is plug and play, no adapters, no bridges. I also have a couple of other devices, plug them into the backbone and all is good. I can't speak to how well RM does this, but it is worth considering.

Radar was mentioned earlier. If radar is the most important component, pick the radar unit that works best for you, that will determine which product line you go with. Radar protocols remain proprietary.

Good luck and happy shopping!

colemj · Nov 4, 2019

dlochner said:
In the end, I think it is mostly a personal choice about features and ease of use, and I think the only choice is between B&G and RM. Garmin is too new to the game. Go to a boat show or store and use the devices. Check out Panbo's site. Talk to fellow sailors. It's a long winter.

Furuno is another major brand.

Captain Larry-DH said:
Your CP will receive heading data over that connection (for radar overlay) and may control the AP. (Emphasis on the word “may”). Navico (B&G, Simrad, Lowrance) does not play well with Raymarine.

Controlling an AP through a chartplotter requires the AP and plotter to be the same brand (and usually the same vintage) for everyone. It isn't only a Navico thing. Same with radar.

dlochner said:
Radar was mentioned earlier. If radar is the most important component, pick the radar unit that works best for you, that will determine which product line you go with. Radar protocols remain proprietary.

This is an important point. However, choosing the radar only determines which chartplotter one goes with. The rest of the instrumentation can be chosen for their individual attributes and mixed as direct plug and play. Except for Raymarine, which will require some converters to use with other instruments.

We have also just finished an electronics overhaul. Since radar is more important to us than the chartplotter, we chose Furuno for this part of the system, and the Furuno chartplotter had to come along. I've used almost all of the radar brands, and radar is one area Furuno stands apart from the others.

After having settled that part of the system, we then chose a Simrad autopilot and controller (driving our old Raymarine hydraulic pump), Simrad compass, Maretron GPS, B&G Triton MFD instruments, Vesper AIS, Airmar speed and depth transducers, and LC Captuers wind transducer.

Like mentioned earlier, Simrad, B&G, and Lowrance are mostly the same stuff, but either limited/differ in certain functionalities, or limited/differ in which peripherals are available in the line. However, their autopilots are exactly the same, and the "differences" only show up through software when one chooses the type of boat they are used on. For example, if sailboat is chosen, then sailing-specific features are activated, and if powerboat, then things like preset steering patterns show up. The reason we chose Simrad here is because Simrad offers a separate full-function control head, while B&G offers a limited control pad that works through a Triton instrument.

Also like mentioned earlier, if your AP drive unit is in good shape, there is no reason to get a new one, nor any reason to make it the same brand. Keeping the previous one in place saves money and time.

Our previous 2015 Garmin 7212 12" chartplotter and 24HD radar is currently for sale if anyone is interested. They work perfectly, and the only reason they were removed is because we were replacing the very old Raymarine stuff and decided to make a clean go of everything. It comes with all cables, GPS transducer, manuals, etc.

Regarding the Garmin CP in terms of some of what has been said above, it is a touch screen only and we never found this to be a limitation or issue - always worked well even with wet fingers. I also found the user interface to be very good and intuitive. I'm hoping the touchscreen usability is not Garmin-only, because we replaced it with a Furuno touch-only.

Mark

leo310 · Nov 4, 2019

With the NMEA 2000 I have a Raymarine EV-100 AP talking to a Garmin MFD with no problems in tracking course set on the MFD so with this in mine you can mix some systems. The only thing that I feel you should not mix is the radar and MFD. Brand is what you feel fits your needs and most systems will talk to others its just the updates that you may not be able to do if you mix.

SG · Nov 4, 2019

The steer-to-compass and steer-to-way point functions on many multi-manufacturer Autopilot and Chart Plotter systems usually will work.

B&G's specialty with regard to it's Autopilot software interfaces with it's instruments have been the algorithms that it uses for steering using and wind (and sea state).

The radar inferface for various chart plotters is pretty proprietary. We have a Furuno Radar which interfaces with a PC running Nobletec software. The B&G system will take heading and waypoint information from the Furuno without many issues.

Again: Stratus3, what you are using the boat, where, and how is pretty important to really giving some advice.

tfox2069 · Nov 4, 2019

colemj said:
Our previous 2015 Garmin 7212 12" chartplotter and 24HD radar is currently for sale if anyone is interested. They work perfectly, and the only reason they were removed is because we were replacing the very old Raymarine stuff and decided to make a clean go of everything. It comes with all cables, GPS transducer, manuals, etc.

If anyone is considering the 7212 and HD radar, I'll +1 for it being a very nice setup. I inherited the combo from the PO on my H36, and the 7212, while a bit dated, is VERY capable (and HUGE). I updated the charts this year (supports Garmin Autorouting), and it overlays/allows MARPA interaction with targets from the Garmin VHF/AIS I installed this year (over NMEA 2000), its DSC capable, overlays live (subscription) weather from SiriusXM (also allows you to look up forecasts), has lunar info and tide tables, and overlays radar onto the chart. Oh, and it also has two video inputs (if you want to mount and wire cameras and view them onscreen). Pretty much overkill for weekend bay sailing, but pretty darn useful nonetheless. And the touchscreen has never been an issue, even in horizontal rain thunderstorms (wish I could say the same thing for my furler bearings, but that's another story). I added a Yacht Devices YDWG 02 to the NMEA 2000 network, and I get all the information except radar and weather wirelessly from the mixed Raymarine NMEA 0183 and Garmin NMEA 2000 system as long as the chartplotter is powered on. Unless something dies I'd be hard pressed to identify something I want/need that this system 6+ year old system isn't capable of providing.

colemj · Nov 5, 2019

SG said:
The steer-to-compass and steer-to-way point functions on many multi-manufacturer Autopilot and Chart Plotter systems usually will work.

B&G's specialty with regard to it's Autopilot software interfaces with it's instruments have been the algorithms that it uses for steering using and wind (and sea state).

The radar inferface for various chart plotters is pretty proprietary. We have a Furuno Radar which interfaces with a PC running Nobletec software. The B&G system will take heading and waypoint information from the Furuno without many issues.

I should have been more clear on that point. Autopilots will take waypoint data to steer to from any device capable of providing them. I can do so on ours from our computer. They steer by compass by default, but compass data doesn't come directly from the plotter it is a separate part of the system. What can't be done currently is using a different brand chart plotter to control the autopilot itself. In other words, one cannot use the chartplotter to engage/disengage the autopilot, activate a route or waypoint instruction, dodge, change the steering mode (wind, compass, nav), etc. These functions require either a separate AP control head, or a same-brand compatible chartplotter.

Radar interfaces are completely proprietary to the corresponding chartplotter. Some can operate with PC software - Furuno partners with Time Zero (who bought Nobeltec), and OpenCPN has reverse-engineered some of the Navico and Garmin radar interfaces. There may be others.

I agree that our B&G autopilot, using a 9-axis 20Hz compass, is the best AP I've used. B&G do have great steering algorithms for sailboats, developed from their racing program. NKE is probably equal (possibly better) to them in this regard.

However, the component that makes all brands of autopilots so much better than the previous generation is the new generation of compasses they are using. In addition to heading, our compass provides the autopilot with rate of turn, roll, pitch, and heave data, all stabilized on 9 axes, 20 times per second. Of course, the AP must be able to use these data, but development in compasses is what has really moved AP steering forward.

If one hasn't seen a new generation autopilot in action, it is difficult to describe how good they are now. I feel so inadequate when I take the helm...

Mark

colemj · Nov 5, 2019

tfox2069 said:
If anyone is considering the 7212 and HD radar, I'll +1 for it being a very nice setup. I inherited the combo from the PO on my H36, and the 7212, while a bit dated, is VERY capable (and HUGE). I updated the charts this year (supports Garmin Autorouting), and it overlays/allows MARPA interaction with targets from the Garmin VHF/AIS I installed this year (over NMEA 2000), its DSC capable, overlays live (subscription) weather from SiriusXM (also allows you to look up forecasts), has lunar info and tide tables, and overlays radar onto the chart. Oh, and it also has two video inputs (if you want to mount and wire cameras and view them onscreen). Pretty much overkill for weekend bay sailing, but pretty darn useful nonetheless. And the touchscreen has never been an issue, even in horizontal rain thunderstorms (wish I could say the same thing for my furler bearings, but that's another story). I added a Yacht Devices YDWG 02 to the NMEA 2000 network, and I get all the information except radar and weather wirelessly from the mixed Raymarine NMEA 0183 and Garmin NMEA 2000 system as long as the chartplotter is powered on. Unless something dies I'd be hard pressed to identify something I want/need that this system 6+ year old system isn't capable of providing.

Thanks, it is a great system, and huge display - the Garmin 12" display is larger than the Furuno 12" we replaced with, and they are both the same physical size.

It feels silly replacing it, but since we are doing a complete ripout and replace of all the other old electronics, we just decided to be brand new across the board. The Furuno was chosen because of our previous experiences with their radar - none are better at this. However, the Garmin plotter portion is better than Furuno's in ease of use and presentation of charts.

Mark