dl, i have been rude to other boaters many times too. i try to learn with hindsight and do better the next time. i try to never allow that to happen twice. we're all just trying to have some fun.
Navigation Channel Markers
- Thread starter BobbyFunn
- Start date
He was probably struggling with a bird's nest in his reel, trying to reel it in to avoid just that sort of accident. It is bad form to assume the guy wasn't doing all he could to help. Maybe he wasn't, but I know no one who doesn't want to be the best person they can be. We, especially myself, often are slow on the uptake, and we hate taking blame so we get in the habit of laying it off on others.
I council patience with others on all occasions. That doesn't mean there are not times to forget patience and fight for your rights. It is just that there are far less of those times than many may think.
- Will (Dragonfly)
Will and Jon,
With all due respect, neither of you were there. If we had headed up, we would have hit the boat, if we turned down we would have had to gybe twice. He was not doing anything but steering his boat across our course, he needed to do was turn 45 degrees to port for about a minute and there would have been no story to tell.
This happened at time when our corner of the lake was littered with incompetent boaters. It was the beginning of salmon mania. Fishermen in boats firmly believed that if they were fishing then they had the right of way. Even charter boat captains adhered to this view. During the 6 week salmon run, sailors were essentially forced off the water, because these guys were out blocking the harbor entrance with their fishing lines and forcing sailors into really dangerous situations. It was ugly and there was little or no law enforcement. Two or three boats would be trolling in line, with outriggers and planing boards, they would snake back and forth across the harbor leaving little room for other boats to pass. More than once we had to take evasive action to avoid being driven up on a break wall. If we got too close in the process we would be threatened. After a few years, salmon fever declined and it was once again sort of safe to navigate in the harbor and surrounding waters during salmon season.
With all due respect, neither of you were there. If we had headed up, we would have hit the boat, if we turned down we would have had to gybe twice. He was not doing anything but steering his boat across our course, he needed to do was turn 45 degrees to port for about a minute and there would have been no story to tell.
This happened at time when our corner of the lake was littered with incompetent boaters. It was the beginning of salmon mania. Fishermen in boats firmly believed that if they were fishing then they had the right of way. Even charter boat captains adhered to this view. During the 6 week salmon run, sailors were essentially forced off the water, because these guys were out blocking the harbor entrance with their fishing lines and forcing sailors into really dangerous situations. It was ugly and there was little or no law enforcement. Two or three boats would be trolling in line, with outriggers and planing boards, they would snake back and forth across the harbor leaving little room for other boats to pass. More than once we had to take evasive action to avoid being driven up on a break wall. If we got too close in the process we would be threatened. After a few years, salmon fever declined and it was once again sort of safe to navigate in the harbor and surrounding waters during salmon season.
LOL uncledom. Not poking fun at you, poking fun at the entire sailing community over this one. I hope you too see the humor in this. Of all the hundreds of flaming discussions on these and other boards about R.O.W., here it may have been correct.
Don’t know/ remember if the original poster was on one of the designated water ways from rule 9, or if the Secretary has designated Rule 9 to apply to the one in question.
Inland
(ii) Notwithstanding Rule 9(a)(i) and Rule 14(a), a power-driven vessel operating in narrow channel or fairway on the Great Lakes, Western Rivers, or waters specified by the Secretary, and proceeding downbound with a following current shall have the right-of-way
Bobby,
In rivers with narrow deep water channels & shoaling outside the channels, you don't have much choice but to remain in the channel and operate your vessel according to the rules of navigation. You have a right to be in that channel; however, you have to give way when indicated and sometimes give way as a matter of common sense and courtesy. You should avoid some channels that are designated traffic separation schemes -channels; however, if there's shoaling outside the markers, you don't have much choice but to operate within the channel.
As others have mentioned, there's a lot more navigable water outside marked channels. It's a matter of studying the charts, talking to boaters who have more local knowledge, and keeping an eye on your depth meter. When I sailed a lot around Pensacola, you really had to watch the depth closely because you might run aground inside the channel markers because of shoaling! After you've sailed in a given area you develop a sense of where you can go and areas to avoid, and yes, sometimes running aground in the process. I've never let insurance company concerns affect where I sail; I just operate & pilot the boat in a safe and prudent manner. Transitting to another area in which you aren't familiar, staying in the channel is a safer option; otherwise, if we restricted ourselves to sailing only in channels, boating would be quite boring.
In rivers with narrow deep water channels & shoaling outside the channels, you don't have much choice but to remain in the channel and operate your vessel according to the rules of navigation. You have a right to be in that channel; however, you have to give way when indicated and sometimes give way as a matter of common sense and courtesy. You should avoid some channels that are designated traffic separation schemes -channels; however, if there's shoaling outside the markers, you don't have much choice but to operate within the channel.
As others have mentioned, there's a lot more navigable water outside marked channels. It's a matter of studying the charts, talking to boaters who have more local knowledge, and keeping an eye on your depth meter. When I sailed a lot around Pensacola, you really had to watch the depth closely because you might run aground inside the channel markers because of shoaling! After you've sailed in a given area you develop a sense of where you can go and areas to avoid, and yes, sometimes running aground in the process. I've never let insurance company concerns affect where I sail; I just operate & pilot the boat in a safe and prudent manner. Transitting to another area in which you aren't familiar, staying in the channel is a safer option; otherwise, if we restricted ourselves to sailing only in channels, boating would be quite boring.
I have a couple of questions. Did you catch anything on the line? What kind of fish was it? If you didn't actually catch any thing would you be willing to lie just to keep the funniest story I ever heard going? Have you tried tennis balls? When people are being uncooperative and not following the Nav Rules I reach for the Flare Gun, the admiral yells "Hey" and I put it down, then she gives me tennis balls to throw at them. I feel so much better. Delivery captains of new fancy stink pots who are over taking you with out signaling give you a wide berth as soon as you cock your arm back.
It was a 35 lb Coho Salmon, the drag on the line slowed us down and caused us to lose the race. We were planning to have a smoked salmon dinner to celebrate our victory, but while bringing the fish aboard, the line broke and we lost it. It was a sad day for the fish, the sailors and the fisherman.
Yes many fishermen are quite belligerent and few practice the navigational rules of the road after all they are out there attempting to catch a meal and we are out there trying to catch a breeze, apparently their hunger overrules any crazy rules of the road at least that is how many behave. I can attest to this experience when navigating our vessel for the first time coming out of Muskegon lake into lake Michigan, the salmon fishermen in the channel were as thick as thieves and steadfast in their direction, it didn't matter to them that a 10 ton vessel was attempting thru fare, they were fishing and that is all there was to that.
Man, this is like when I discovered Biscuits with sausage gravy, all I could think is "man I've been missin' out all these years"
If a guy fishing is fishing for his dinner and needs to fish for his dinner, I'd have a much different view. Back in the day, the fishermen were mostly from out of state looking for trophy salmon, not a meal.
Maybe it has to do with the fish. As I recall, NY got their initial salmon stock from Michigan.
How much you wanna make a bet its illegal to operate this in many communities.
I was researching bb guns to handle a baby grass lawn decimating rabbit infestation and noticed that "potato guns" were banned. Came down to any thing that sends a projectile.
People take way too much stuff way too seriously. Funny thing is, I've never actually had to throw the tennis ball. Still have the same three we started with. Toss it up and catch it twice and wind up and they're off, hard to port or what ever direction gets them away quickest. But thanks for the toy suggestions. Perhaps if we have a rousing game of pirates between a few friendly sailors.
If i had a fixed keel, i'd be more particular about using the channels. Even pickier about using sails. In that scenerio the river is just a space to motor between the bay and the slip.
I don't see many sailboats sailing here, sometimes they hoist sail but usually, they're putting around like they had nothing better to do for the afternoon, and im doing circles aeound them. Or theres the macgregor gunboating through.
Ive had pretty good experiences in the river as far as navigation is concerned with others. On our last sail the wind was blowing 5-8kt from about 100 and the bridge was about 2 miles down heading 260. I was pretty much able to sail right to the bridge while in the channel. As we got to the bridge a nice size center console quickly approach. It came to almost a complete stop versus my 4 kt. He just drifted behind waiting. I waved him on, he went by and then speed up to go through the bridge channel. Pretty cool.
It was awkward though i felt like a cyclist on the shoulder of a skinny country winding road. "They have the right, still shouldn't be there, and they're gonna die by a bigger vehicle, only a matter of time".
I don't see many sailboats sailing here, sometimes they hoist sail but usually, they're putting around like they had nothing better to do for the afternoon, and im doing circles aeound them. Or theres the macgregor gunboating through.
Ive had pretty good experiences in the river as far as navigation is concerned with others. On our last sail the wind was blowing 5-8kt from about 100 and the bridge was about 2 miles down heading 260. I was pretty much able to sail right to the bridge while in the channel. As we got to the bridge a nice size center console quickly approach. It came to almost a complete stop versus my 4 kt. He just drifted behind waiting. I waved him on, he went by and then speed up to go through the bridge channel. Pretty cool.
It was awkward though i felt like a cyclist on the shoulder of a skinny country winding road. "They have the right, still shouldn't be there, and they're gonna die by a bigger vehicle, only a matter of time".
I've made a few potato guns ... they are so much fun! The first one I actually ever saw was a tennis ball gun....I was 7 years old and the neighbor kid had made it.... Back in the day when tennis cans were metal, you could tape two cans together, drive some nails through the bottom can about 1/3 up from the bottom and the tennis ball would rest on the nails. Squirt a little gas in through a nail hole step back and place a match at the hole... whooomph.... the tennis ball would go soaring. Hair spray would have worked better .... but hey... matches and a can of gasoline + young kids... DARWIN in action!
It was something like this...
In general, stand on vessel status is granted in the following order:
Vessel not under command
Vessel restricted in ability to maneuver
Vessel constrained by draft
Vessel engaged in fishing (usually means commercial guys with gear out)
Sailing vessels
Power vessels
Seaplanes
In some situations, a vessel restricted in ability to maneuver is stand on to even a vessel not under command. EG, vessel engaged in rescue operation, mine sweeper, etc.
Of course this is all further complicated by things like:
Rule 2 - Responsibility, requires that due regard shall he given to all dangers of navigation and collision. This rule allows the mariner to depart from the rules as necessary to avoid the immediate danger of collision.
Rule 4 – must keep a lookout by all available means (if you have AIS & it is turned off during a crash, you are in trouble)
Rule 6 – Safe speed (if the sign says 6 knots max, no wake, but you need to go 8 knots to maintain steerage, forget the sign)
Rule 7 – You will use all available means to determine if a risk of collision exists, if there is any doubt, you assume that there is a risk of collision.
Rule 8 – Action to avoid collision, changes in course and speed shall be large enough so as to be readily apparent to the other vessel, etc, etc, etc.
Rule 15 – Vessel approaching from your starboard side is stand on (of you see his green bow light you go, if you see his red bow light, let him go)
& there are a bunch more rules for horn toots for passing on different sides, restricted visibility, etc, etc, etc.
Bottom line if you can't remember all the details is this - if the other guy will have a hard time making room for you to do what you want to do, then give him room. Having your boat go crunch is expensive & time consuming at best, regardless if you think you had "rights" or not.
Vessel not under command
Vessel restricted in ability to maneuver
Vessel constrained by draft
Vessel engaged in fishing (usually means commercial guys with gear out)
Sailing vessels
Power vessels
Seaplanes
In some situations, a vessel restricted in ability to maneuver is stand on to even a vessel not under command. EG, vessel engaged in rescue operation, mine sweeper, etc.
Of course this is all further complicated by things like:
Rule 2 - Responsibility, requires that due regard shall he given to all dangers of navigation and collision. This rule allows the mariner to depart from the rules as necessary to avoid the immediate danger of collision.
Rule 4 – must keep a lookout by all available means (if you have AIS & it is turned off during a crash, you are in trouble)
Rule 6 – Safe speed (if the sign says 6 knots max, no wake, but you need to go 8 knots to maintain steerage, forget the sign)
Rule 7 – You will use all available means to determine if a risk of collision exists, if there is any doubt, you assume that there is a risk of collision.
Rule 8 – Action to avoid collision, changes in course and speed shall be large enough so as to be readily apparent to the other vessel, etc, etc, etc.
Rule 15 – Vessel approaching from your starboard side is stand on (of you see his green bow light you go, if you see his red bow light, let him go)
& there are a bunch more rules for horn toots for passing on different sides, restricted visibility, etc, etc, etc.
Bottom line if you can't remember all the details is this - if the other guy will have a hard time making room for you to do what you want to do, then give him room. Having your boat go crunch is expensive & time consuming at best, regardless if you think you had "rights" or not.
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Back when I was an FFL holder, I followed the BATF's position on potato guns for a couple of years. They vacillated back & forth between classifying them as a toy & classifying them as a destructive device (artillery).
With the exception of a shotgun, or an "antique" (musket), basically everything else with a projectile over 1/2" in diameter is consider to be artillery under federal law. I don't know what the current position is on potato guns. If they are not currently illegal, I'm sure that they will again be illegal at some time in the future. The penalties for illegal possession of a "destructive device" are significant, if someone chooses to prosecute.
Just out of curiosity, how did the BB gun rules work out for you & the rabbits? I've had some racoon issues here. If it's allowed, that might be a nice way to handle the situation.
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That was exactly what mine looked like. Powered by Aqua-Net we had a blast and the "whoosh" was almost as exciting as the tennis ball being lobed 50 yards.
One day a grumpy old lady who did not want kids to have any fun called the Air Police on us ( I grew up on Air Force bases).
They rolled up lights flashing siren whaling and scared the bejesus out of us all. The two airman might have been four or five years older than us and were really intrigued by our contraptions. Told us to take it out of the housing area and over to the ball fields where there were fewer people to see what shenanigans we were up to. We did and about lunch time they rolled up on us again and actually took part in our monkeyshines.
I've got one now that uses compressed air and shoots golf balls bounce one of those off of a hull and the offending sports fisher skipper would certainly notice. A water balloon sling shot works well to.
One day a grumpy old lady who did not want kids to have any fun called the Air Police on us ( I grew up on Air Force bases).
They rolled up lights flashing siren whaling and scared the bejesus out of us all. The two airman might have been four or five years older than us and were really intrigued by our contraptions. Told us to take it out of the housing area and over to the ball fields where there were fewer people to see what shenanigans we were up to. We did and about lunch time they rolled up on us again and actually took part in our monkeyshines.
I've got one now that uses compressed air and shoots golf balls bounce one of those off of a hull and the offending sports fisher skipper would certainly notice. A water balloon sling shot works well to.