Nantucket Wind Farm

[r.w.landau]

USofA!!

I followed a thread here on MEK. Thank you gentlemen for your personal stake in fighting and being committmented to freedom in this country. MY point. *box . This is a free country. Men die for it. If someone has a vision for planting windmills, why should he not have the freedom to do it where he wants? One of the most upsetting things I have heard was while I was cruising with my dad about 10 years ago. We were in Biscayne bay cutting through what was called Stiltsville. Explaination for those not familar with the area. Stiltsville is an open channel from Biscayne Bay to the ocean just south of Miami.here is a channel that winds it's way through open water that is sand bars. On either side of this channel,people at one time chose to build houses on pilings. It was a beautiful sight. However, after one of the Hurricanes went through, the nasty one that devistated Homestead Fla., some dirt kissers,( sorry, but that is what they are)decided that these homes endangered life and were an eyesore. Thus lobbing has caused legislation that as the homes deteriorate, they can only be maintained and not rebuilt. Stiltsville had about 8 homes left the last time I was there. What a sorry memory.What if seattle decided sailboats were a distraction and a danger to the city. You will be legislated out.Ft. Lauderdale FLA. About 15 years ago the city was putting pressure on liveaboards. They said the livaboards were contaminating the canals. My dad(owning land on a canal and an wwII vet) fought the city. Finding that the sewer system was in bad repair and leaking into the canals. Pumpouts were still mandated and the fight has been hard. The last I heard was that few canals now are allowed to have liveaboards.Yes, to own a property that would lower others property value is a problem. Cell towers have made much headway because we need them. At least we think we do. I say, if you own property, is it yours? If you have money and chose to raise windmills, hats off to you. Why should I interupt the dream of someone else?Automobiles had it tough ( many we appalled by them)in coming and public power was ugly. But it was an american right. We are now better for it. (Or are we or is that another hot topic)I am not a dirt kisser, I am an American.I believe that Americans have the rights to pursue dreams.r.w.landau

 

[patrick]

Hey Rick,

Seattle has a collosal giant expensive 7 billion dollar train thing going in for "mess transit" from Tacoma to maybe Everett unless they run out of money. You can absolutely count on that. How much pollution and how many must die to build this monstrosity?It won't go to the airport though - that would cost too much. It does go through parts of town I won't go and would not allow my kids to go either. We cannot fix that though, gangsters, junkies, and perverts have their rights as I am sure you know. Hey Vancouver BC is giving away heroin now so if you know any junkies, they will really like it there.There goes some dumbass comment about global warming and green house gasses again. I guess it is time to fire up the Hummer and use up some more of that imported oil so we can finally get started drilling in Alaska. The weather here is just too cool! It is back down to the 50s and raining so I guess the drought is over.

 

[patrick]

Hey R.W.

The "liberals" in Seattle tried to outlaw living on boats just a few years back - really. Jennifer whats her name from the DNR was behind that. She just decided to pass a "rule".They won't allow house boats unless they are "grandfathered". By the way I object to the use of that term. I think it is a derogatory use and besides I might be a grandfather soon.

 

[TedsSailingPage]

Dumb Idea . . .

I cannot imagine that the economics would be favorable considering the expense of building and maintaining a wind farm in the ocean.The visual effects are a discrace, and I cannot believe that the economics would justify such a sacrifice.Dumb Idea . . .

 

[Jack Tyler]

Tilting at windmills...

As Norman pointed out earlier, there are - literally - thousands of those already in operation. Britain is currently going thru the approval process on three new, huge wind farms in tidal flats areas as I write this; they have many more in operation...and they have North Sea oil. Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands and Belgium all have them in large numbers. I'm told to expect them in France and points South. We even saw some in the Azores.You can argue the economic model but it depends on the assumptions you choose to make; the farther out you look, the more they make sense. We (on this BB) can hardly complain on esthetic grounds since, as also pointed out above, we as a group choose to use them ourselves.Energy consumption levels in the U.S. are embarrassing but we seem mostly oblivious. We dislike dirtying our hands with the Middle East and dislike Chavez in VZ, yet we consume their oil as tho' the two are unrelated. We have the best road infrastructure on a per mile basis I've seen, yet we're clueless about how to benefit (in many ways) from public transport systems. And now some want to wail about wind farms.I sometimes wonder what makes some Americans worthy of America.Jack

 

[Roger5024]

Pursuit of happine$$

If you live on Cape Cod, as I do, you get to read extensively aboutthe Horseshoe Shoals Wind Farm as it is in every daily issue of the Cape Cod Times. It has pitted idealist vs idealist, sailor versus environmentalist as if there could be such a distinction. I can see the lone test tower from every beach from Dennis to Cotuit. I sailed out to take a look at it, and can't imagine dozens or hundreds of larger structures in the center of the the Sound separating the North Channel from the South Channel.To me the central issue is not the pursuit of happiness but the pursuit of money. Cape Wind Associates wants to build an industrial complex on public land (Federal land actually, although the reason why this little strip down the center of MA waters is Federal is particuarly bizarre and arcane) at no cost in terms of acquisition. They will make their money from selling the turbines and garnering tax breaks. At some time, in the not-so-distant future, imho, the operating costs will become greater than the benefit and we will have hundreds of rusting, flashing, insdustrial steel and concrete obstructions slowly disintegrating in this beautiful waterway.The Federal Gov't owns a massive amount of land on Cape Cod, the Mass Military Reservation on which one could build and maintain wind (or solar or whatever) renewable energy facilties at a fraction of the cost.But even if the slight advantage of being build over water dictates placement, why not build in the industrialized sections of Buzzard's Bay? And for those who feels that this is just a NIMBY issue, we could just cover the east-facing side of the Cape from Provincetown to Chatham (down to Monomoy) with turbines, as that is all National Seashore, so is for the Public Good.Maybe someday we can put all this 'hot air energy' (including mine) to better use.

 

[Rick]

Anything that gets us off imported oil

is a very good thing. The Danish have been doing it for years and you don't hear their sailers whining about it.

 

[Marc14857]

Nuclear Power

Wanted to follow up on an earlier reply: "Why not nuclear"? which is an excellent question. A single 1000 Mw Nuclear plant can provide enough power for almost 1 million homes with zero green house emissions. In addition it will reduce our oil and natural gas consumption and will provide price stability for our electric rates. The price of Nuclear power has little to do with what is taking place around the world. Let's say goodbye to OPEC!Sure we have to deal with the waste but many other countries already have dealt with that problem including France, England,Sweeden,and Japan. The US is poised to deal with the waste as well if we ever complete Yucca Mountain which has been tied up in Political infighting for decades. Nuclear power is safe, secure and reliable and its time the US caught up with the rest of the industrialized world and realized that we are polluting our planet by burning fossil fuels. Its time to face reality. Nuclear may not be the best long term solution but it is better cleaner safer, cheaper and more reliable than the alternatives.

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

Well said, Jack

As someone who has had to eat humble pie over this issue (30 years ago I wrote "wind generators are ideal energy sources for castles in the air") I fully agree with the gist of your remarks.Those who don't like alternative energy sources such as wind, solar or tidal should have grabbed the chance to develop our own gigantic source of fossil hydrocarbons while there was still time to do so. No, I am not talking about our puny Alaskan oil reserves but about the proven US shale oil reserves which dwarf the oil reserves of the Middle East.The technology has long been there. South Africa -- forced to develop their shale oil reserves during the Apartheid boycot period -- still produces much of their transportation fuel this way. Apparently, the Utah and Colorado shale oil reserves (quickly abandoned when the price of Middle East crude fell below US $ 20 per barrel in the eighties) are now being eyed again. However, it is going to take several decades before our strategic shale oil reserves can be developed to the point that they can make a real difference rather than just being a bargaining chip in the discussions with OPEC.Flying Dutchman

 

[Rob]

We need to plan our future

It really amazes how short sighted we are as a country....My heritage is Dutch... I am a first generation American.....As much as I love this country and consider myself extremely lucky to have been born here...It is my right as a citizen to question our goals and long term commitments. To constantly challenge and question our law makers and their decisions....I think that is the basis for American Freedom.....I do not agree with ed21..Rob,,,or even ED Ryan....Its so funny that Kerry Gets mocked for trying to be an environmentalist while also trying to keep a strong US industry. However Let bush throw out the pro Industry stance with F**K the environment and half of America votes for him....I find that very disturbing......Do we as Americans realize that this is a Finite Planet...with Finite resources???...I really don't think we do...Look at the UN report just filed regarding the state of the planet..(if Bush had sponsored it he would have changed the scientists results because he didn't like the outcome)..I'm sure a Coal fired smoke plume or Nuclear plant cooling tower would look much more appealing on the Nantucket coast that Wind turbines....Ive been to Nantucket many times...It is a Beautiful coast........I have also been to The Netherlands many times...They have been harnessing Wind for centuries......I'm sure some people ( the Nay sayers "Bushism") thought the first Windmills were an eyesore,,,I have seen the wind farms on the North Sea.....They are graceful...a tribute to a clean environment....Clean, White, Silent in the breeze....and a tribute to our technology....has anyone looked off the Coast of California lately????...what do you see???..oil drilling platforms!...I'm sure our Texan president wouldn't mind one of them off the Nantucket coast,,,but God forbid a clean environment!......I'm sure its all a personal taste about the esthetics.....I mean I'm sure powerboaters think all of those billowing with fabric things are ugly too....... We as a nation, must pound into our Elected officials that we need a LONG term energy plan...( Nicolaus Otto invented the first gas motor in 1876..... we haven't changed the concept since..... We need a longer energy vision that 129 years........and I'm not talking a trickle 10 million barrels in the AWR......I read an article in the paper yesterday the Daimler Chrysler are building a fleet or hydrogen cars (only by product water)and filling stations on the east coast and within 20 years should be ready for mass production.....20 years???......This project was initiated by the Germans...Where is our American ingunuity???...or first there gusto???.....if it sounds like Im frustrated...I am.I need to raise my sails and get out from behind this desk.

 

[p323ms]

Nuclear Sucks

Nuclear has many of the problems of coal in that you must mine the stuff and purify the stuff. Then when all is said and done you have nuclear waste!! Where can you put the stuff where it will be safe for 100,000 years??? Coal is better!!!! If the air gets so polluted that we all die from asthma then the next day the skies will start to clear and in 100 years it would be hard to know that we had ever lived. But with nuclear it will still be killing for a 100,000 years or more. People will drink the water and wonder why the kids are dying of leukemia. Even the mercury that the coal fired steam plants are belching out will eventually be tied up in sediments somewhere. Islands in the pacific that were used for bomb tests are still too radioactive for habitation after 55 years. Cesium in the coconuts make them inedible. Even 50 exxon valdez disasters will be mostly over after 50 years!!!! For all practical human time scales nuclear is forever....no second chances.. Even if the windfarms are a flop the rusting platforms will make great fishing spots!!!!!

 

[Allen]

Pro-wind, pro-renewable

Everyone,Great posts...lots of interesting opinions. I have 1 question for all of the anti-wind people:Fossil fuels will be depleted within the next 60 years. That is an undisputed fact. With China's economy growing it may not even last that long. What are you going to do then??Given today's technology, we really have 2 long term choices: Wind, solar or nuclear. Solar is too expensive, which leaves wind & solar.Great. This is now a very easy decision to make: Would you rather look at a windmill farm or have nuclear waste stored in your back yard.I know where I stand.Rebuttals???Allen Schweitzers/v FalstaffC-30 Hull# 632

 

[Rick Webb]

Nuclear Get's a Bad Rap

The waste can be reprocessed cleanly and effeciently. There was a plant nearly done in Barnwell SC to do just that when Jimmy Carter decided we will bury it instead to keep any bad guys from getting ahold of it. We should take another look at it. Unfortunatly any enviornmental whacko armed with a lawyer is going to make that nearly impossible to build the lines to distribute the power let alone the plant.

 

[Franklin]

Space

Send the waste into space. As massave as space is, we couldn't ever put up too much Nuclear Waste that it became a problem. One may say that it would cost too much. I disagree. All you need is a simple rocket to blast the stuff just beyond the gravitation pull of earth, then it will keep going and going and going away from our planet. Most of the cost involved in space projects is the safety and other considerations to make sure the goal is met. This goal is simple...just get it out of here.

 

[FrankR]

What ever happened to CONSERVATION?

Do we all really need big gas guzzling SUV's clogging up freeways with only one person each? Do we need to light up the cities as if was day light, heat shopping malls to 80 degrees or cool them so people get goose bumps. Seems to me it would be easy to save 10-20% energy usage. I'm pro wind/water/solar. Out where I live the people who destroyed the beauty of the hill sides with their $1,000,000 second homes are bitching about the wind farms on the ridges destroying the scenery. Ugliness lies in the eyes of the beholder.

 

[Franklin]

Hubert's Peak

Ever hear of Hubert's Peak? He was an oil expert in the 50's. He predicted that the US would reach it's peak of oil supply in the early 70s. People laughted at him but he turned out to be right. I believe he also predicted that the world would reach it's peak in the next 2-5 years. What does reaching peak mean? It means that we can nolonger increaces our oil supply. From that point on, we start bringing out less oil. Now combine that with the demain on a constant rise, that will cause a great problem and that's when governments will start finding $$$ reasons to change because gas will be $5 a gallon. We will change, but only when we are forced too because people just like how things are now. It will cause our country great problems and may knock us off the top when it happens, but it will happen.

 

[Franklin]

agreed

I ride my motorbike to work and just about every other place I can when the weather is bearable. I keep my home at 80% during the summer and 70% during the winter. I turn off a light when I leave the room. But here at work, I have to have a sweater on and a blanket laid over my legs because the AC is on too much. Drives me nuts. I think part of the problem is that business says suits are how one should dress for work. Why would anybody put on layers and layers of clothing when it's 105% outside? STUPID!

 

[Kailani]

Ken Mehlman advised Bush...

...on exactly where the voting public's interest was in November 2004. Foreign policy, social security, sanctity of marriage and the economy. Little to nothing on energy.It's not a secret that the liberal party is considered more environmentally conscious, yet this priority was lost during the last federal election. At the end of the day, if you want to change government, business must change, to change business, the consumer must change... oops, we are the consumers.Before one complains about the circumstances, one should consider one's own behavior and principles. For example, I’m sure most boat owners in this thread employ small, efficient diesel auxiliaries to propel their vessels. But what do you drive?Consumption is the key.

 

[Franklin]

Laws of Physics

Doesn't pumping water up a hill to collect the energy coming down the hill defy the laws of physics? How can you achieve a positive electrical gain when you have to spend the energy to pump it back up the hill? I find it hard to believe it would take less or even equal energy to pump it back up.

 

[Paul J. Rusyniak]

e=........

Franklin:The Japanese have been doing this for years, but it might make more sense if you knew that they pump uphill at night, during low demand, and allow the downhill flow to generate power during the day, during high demand periods.It's purely a demand/supply balancer.As you point out, there is a net loss of power in this exchange.Pauls/v The Lord Nelson