Nantucket Wind Farm

[p323ms]

Racoon Mountain Pump Storage

That is TVA's version of a storage battery. Excess generating capacity during off peak hours is used to pump water out of the Tennessee river to an artifical lake on Racoon mountain near Chattanooga,TN. Then during peak hours the water is used to turn turbines as it flows back into the river. Yep there is no perpetual energy machine!!!! This is just a trick to get more use out of existing power plants and requires coal or nuclear energy to get the water to the top of the mountain.Tom

 

[Fred Ficarra]

Thanks Franklin.

You saved me some typing. I was going to ask that last night but I was too busy playing with my brand new satellite BROADBAND! Yea!There is a huge man made lake next to the Grand Coulée Dam that performs the same task. One of the turbines in the dam sends water to the lake. It is reversible and powered by one of it's sister turbines. The lake then can feed backwards for peak power demand. But these days I don't know how often that's done. Fresh water is in huge demand for farm irrigation. Besides, it's very inefficient. Did I mention I love broadband?Allen, a rebuttal. They said fossil fuel would be all used up in 13 years. That was in '73. Result? 'They' raised the price. Kuwait alone, has enough goo to keep the world going for 400 years the last I heard. That makes that little country valuable enough to go to war for. That could just happen! You never know, especially with the mideast run by dictators.

 

[Tim]

Not in My Backyard

I just have to remind everyone against this idea that we are all sitting here on computers contributing to this thread. Computers run on electricity. Electricity comes from somewhere which right now is largely coal and oil fired plants. These plants pollute the air and create acid rain which fowls the air and water. We can't always see this directly, the plants are often far away from our homes, so we forget all this. It is only when the power generation is close to our homes that we remember this. There is a large electrical plant right on the coast here of Maine on Cousins Island that I would gladly replace with wind generation. I have driven through the wind farm in CA east of LA and it is actually quite beautiful I think.Every form of generation requires a trade off. Overall wind and other alternate forms of generation which do not rely on a limited supply of natural resources is best overall.

 

[henkmeuzelaar]

A water reservoir can also store wind power

Rob's pittoresque windmill picture earlier this thread actually shows 4 classic Dutch "watermills" working in tandem to pump ground- and rainwater out of the polder (i.e. land below sealevel) into a high-lying canal on the other side of the dyke. This canal then eventually discharges into the sea.In countries that are more interested in generating power than getting rid of excess water, the high-lying canal or reservoir could drive a turbine instead.Flying Dutchman

 

[p323ms]

Finite Supply and Demand

Oil is a finite resource!!!! China is now the number two importer of oil just behind the USA. The Chinese are growing properous and they want to drive their own SUV's. With over a billon Chinese that is a lot of SUV's. India is also becoming more prosperous as is Mexico. In short our demand is almost without limit and is increasing. Unless the Earth is really just a floating in space oil tank we will probably use up most of the oil in the next 20 years or less. But it will be like whale oil. At some point it gets too expensive to find and kill the last whale or to find the last barrel of oil. Crude oil probably saved whales from extinction!!! Tom

 

[Franklin]

Missing the point

It's not that we are going to run out of oil in the next 20 years, that will not happen. Why, because soon, sooner then most believe, the cost of oil will be so high because of supply and demain, that we will be pushed to find something else. Lots of ideas floating around now, but when gas becomes $5 a gallon, I would bet those ideas become reality quickly. People can get a lot done when they apply themselves. $$$s will make us apply ourselves when gas is $5 a gallon. I believe OPEC will be a thing of the past in 10 years. Oil will still be around, but the demain will come from the nations that didn't apply themselves to a good solution. I think/hope the US will be one of the ones who change. Lets all start first by riding motorbikes to work on nice days at 60 miles to the gallon verse 14 miles to gallon SUVs.

 

[don]

pumped storage

usually the pumping is done at night when the electrical demand is lowest- therefore they don't have to produce extra energy for the pumping back up the hill. it doesn't save energy just changes the period of demand.

 

[Jeff D]

What 's next?

Over the last several years there has been a lot of resistance to energy producing options. Nuclear is no good ( France seems to doing pretty well with it), coal pollutes ( it can be run cleanly but too much resistance from environmentalists), liberal Nantucket Mass. doesn't want windmills, i.e. the Kennedys (who use private jets and SUVs and tell us others to conserve), natural gas is limited and no more exploration but replacing coal for electric generators driving up home owners prices. Same with oil. There are always objections to every alternative but never any solutions other than to conserve. Well it is not just conservatives eating up energy, we are all in this together. Until the powers that be implement CAFE regs for all vehicles and the environmentalists start looking reality in the eye we are headed for "real" shortages. It is not the cost per gallon you will have to worry about but whether or not you can get energy at any cost. There is a whole generation out there who never faced rationing. Watching somebody putting $70.00 into his gas tank the other day and listening to him grouse about it, wait until he is told 10 gallons and that is it. Every day we are bombarded with ads for SUVs and cars with 300 hp. and 0-60 times less than 6 seconds and peopple are buying them.Personally I don't think anything will be done to solve the probelm until the impact is so severe that there are gas lines and people find they can't get to work from the far flung suburbs. Hang on the fun is just beginning. Unfortunately the cost of energy will impact our economy and the change in lifestyles will be significant. Enjoy it while you can.Just so I don't sounnd all gloom and doom, environment joke:What is the difference between a developer and an environmentalist?A deveolper wants to build a cabin the woods, an environmentalist already has a cabin in the woods.

 

[John Nantz]

And It's Only Going To Get Worse!

Ours is a consumer-driven socity and until we recognize the importance of ecological systems and protect them we will ultimately be doomed ourselves - and that time is getting much closer.A few days ago a Report by 1,360 experts in 95 nations was released that said the Earth's ecosystem is at risk. Since population follows an exponential curve, until it starts dying off and that time will some sooner than later.http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science/03/30/earth.ecosystem.reut/index.htmlThe Report said: "Humans are damaging the planet at an unprecedented rate and raising risks of abrupt collapses in nature that could spur disease, deforestation or "dead zones" in the seas."1. One of those "seas" is right here in my back yard and it's called Hood Canal. Unfortunately, everybody wants to live where they can view it and the snow-capped Olympic mountains with forests but there is a problem - it's turned anerobic! Because the body of water is so long it is difficult for the tidal changes to clean out the pollutants, consequently, it apparently didn't take much to tip the balance.2. Many of the streams "in my back yard" have little or no fish in them - where once salmon thrived. The salmon are just the :canary in the mine" but people want to develop so much they don't want to hear about these problems. Our government forces development by withholding money so naturally all the county governments want to develop.3. Puget Sound, until about 20 or 25 years ago, used to be a great place to fish but not anymore. Development and pollution has basically destroyed the fishery which is now just a shadow of it's former self. Ditto with the Columbia River. Which reminds me, a local builder official said we don't need to protect the little streams for fish because it's the big rivers that are important. Well duh?! Anybody ever hear of a salmon laying their eggs in a river???The problem is: Money talks, so who speaks for the environment?

 

[p323ms]

Labels don't help

Trying to label someone liberal or an environmentalist doesn't add to a discussion. A conservative used to be for a balanced budget and state's rights. Judge ideas and not people. I am liberal on most social issues and I love nature. But I think that the death penalty and a balanced budget are good things. I'm for freedom of religion but like personal freedoms and the separation of church from politics. I think corporations should be responsible. Now you can probably call me most anything. I prefer to be called a sailor!!! Or given my sailing ability maybe a boat owner???Tom

 

[Rob]

John Nantz

the answer to your question...who speaks for the environment is...we all need too!However, we missed a huge opportunity to do so in November. When we voted for a president that made Texas the worst polluting states in the nation.I guess we really are blind as a nation...or we just don't care.This discussion was on Bushes table...If you don't believe that there is a think tank in DC that works on all scenario's for the administration..."if we do this that will happen"...you are living under a rock.Hey if there is a spin room there has to be a think tank room....These $2.00 gas prices were already fortold...and they decided that it was worth the price.....They had the information from our own scientists that the polution was out of hand...and they were told to rewrite the reports...ask Kristy Tod Whitman.....yes we all need to do our part conserve,,,buy better cars, recycle...however real leadership for the enviornment begins at the top...the president..he sets policy.... he should set the tone and go with a policy that is moving away from oil....a new initiative..Im sorry did he say he HAD an energy policy????...Wasn't that a debate subject?? .However Im sure that the guys that put him in office with all the refinery $$ wont be too happy. Everyone still has a voice... and its not on this board.Our president needs a strong clean energy stance, He needs to do it for us and our children...so they dont have to ask... dad why is the bay so brown??? what are all of those green globs in the water??? algae blooms.....or are all pine trees dead on top??...and why arent there any fish here???Nuclear energy may be getting a bad rap...but the damage when it comes...is permenant.......Hydogen..for now seams to be the future along with wind......But I don't have access to all of those cool alternative think tank conversations. Jeff D,,,,As far as labels.... believe it or not I consider myself a conservative republican...that does not belive we are "conserving" ( Key word) the enviornment we were provided.....and if that makes me a tree hugger...or makes my stances seam..."liberal"...than so be it..... I prefer to call myself a very concerned American.

 

[David11054]

Attractive Power Production

When I have seen modern windmills while sailing, I found them attractive and inspiring. I certainly wouldn't want to sail through them (I have been right under big ones oin Cornwall), but this looks like a pretty good deal for energy production to me.If I had the money to spend, it would go into conservation. On a tour with Zion Development Corporation. in Rockford, Illinois, today, I learned that a properly built single family dwelling can use as little as $232 of gas in a year! And electrical power is easily saved by paying 10% more for the most energy efficiant apppliances.I'd rather let the free market run the sourcing of the energy needs we do have. (Including wind farms.) That's the only way to get the allocation right as we run out of some sources, and into others.DavidLady Lillie

 

[Rick A]

Wind Farms

We have the largest wind farm in Canada located just south of us. The turbines are massive in size, they do change the landscape and many are opposed to them for aestheic reasons only. They are also quiet, produce large amounts of energy without consuming or polluting. I strongly support the development of wind farms as they provide a great alternative when we need it the most.We are past peak oil, energy costs are sky rocketing, many of the earths' resouces seem to be past the stress point, and but we don't like how they look... a few nights in our homes without heat might change a few hearts out there.

 

[Allen]

Anybody have pictures of their Dodger??

Great debate, but I have to ask...anyone have any pictures of a SAILBOAT (remember those??) dodger that they sewed themselves?I'm thinking of trying it out, but I'm not sure if it's too hard to do.Any feedback out there from someone who's tried it?? If not, send me ANYTHING that has to do with sailing. This energy debate is a crappy way to spend these first few weeks of decent weather!!! ;-)Allen Schweitzers/v FalstaffC-30 Hull# 632

 

[Rich]

April 2005...

Was the date given by the international working group monitoring oil price trends that Saudi Arabia's oil reserves will have reached their full production capacity and begin to decline. This is the largest oil field on the planet and once it begins to tap out we will see, for better or worse, the shift from petroleum-based energy to whatever else. These windmills may take some getting used to, but they are not smokestacks and how we feel about them will evolve with the new energy future...

 

[John Nantz]

Newest Nuclear News

For those who support nuclear as an energy source - consider a "mistake" could be a disaster.1. The Government is STILL cleaning up the Hanford 60+ year old nuclear site but unfortunately some nuclear waste is apparently leaking into the ground water which is running into the Columbia river. What a mess. But the Hanford site is an old site and today we know better. *sigh*2. Oh Boy! In the news TODAY human inspectors apparently were discovered fabricating fassified documents at the 77,000 ton (154,000,000 pound!) Yucca Mountain nuclear disposal site, which was just approved by Congress (oh, everything will be okay, this is "clean energy" they tell us), in order to paper the file.http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/01/yucca.mountain.ap/index.htmlGo ahead, ask me if I trust my Government to insure it's done right. The first place they'll cut the budget to save money is on oversight and inspection.Rob is right - we all have to stand up and speak for the environment because if we don't the people who stand to profit will buy off the elected representatives (a.k.a. campaign contributions) to get what they want. Oh, and someone mentioned algae blooms? Come to Poulsbo between July and October and the former prestine water of Puget Sound will be blood-red from the algae bloom. By the way, there is a sewage outfall just outside Liberty Bay but they say it's operating within state and federal specifications. Tell that to the wildlife as they choke on this stuff.

 

[Scott]

What's the value of recreation?

This is a great thread! Kailani from S.F. hit the nail right on the head when he sums up the relationship between government, business, and consumers. And as consumers, we have the ultimate power to make the changes that we want.Let's take this a step further *!... what if a cooperative among boaters, seaside land owners and recreationally oriented businesses decided to raise money and out-bid the commercial enterprises that want to put windmills in our federal waters. As a citizen of the U.S. and a taxpayer (therefore an interested property owner), I assume that the government is looking out for our interest and is extracting payment for the use of our resources. If the government is offering the location at no cost to the windfarms, it should make it easier to out-bid the windfarm enterprises. I am sure that pressure can be put to bear on politicians to make sure the high bidder wins the award!In this manner, a special interest group can protect "their" waters from commercial encroachment and benefit all of us to boot! BTW, I do think that particular area of the coastline is more valuable as a recreational resource than a windfarm. This method enables us to put a real value on recreation and it is a declaration that we value recreation and aesthetics more than an energy source. I'm sure the wealthy Democrats along coastal Massachusetts (sorry for the slight dig - I know there must be a few Republicans, too) can afford a slight assessment to protect these waters; and the GWB tax cuts will help soften the blow! If the waters are in State jurisdiction, then I am sure that the less affluent residents of western Massachusetts will appreciate the contribution to State coffers that their more affluent neighbors can afford.Well, maybe this concept is just too radical. Is it possible to imagine an unholy alliance with power boaters and wealthy landowners? And what about the wind and the water, isn't it supposed to be "free"? Maybe it's easier to just say NIMBY!