my offer was rejected and countered.. cal 3-34

[puddlejockey]

It seems to me that you already know the answer; and that, in truth, you may be looking for some reassurance for your "gut" feeling of concern from another source.
I've been there, and I'd bet, at some level, you feel like this Should be the right boat, since it's been tough to find a few candidates....but your gut is telling you it isn't the right boat maybe. Go with your gut, no matter how long the search takes.

Why pay that when you KNOW there are big potential issues...save some reserves for the surprise upgrades and repairs she'll need to make it yours....

 

[Rocket1]

I agree with PuddleJockey.

We too searched for well over a year before we finally purchased our boat. Lots and lots of walking the docks, surfing the web, and looking at boats.

In fact, the boat we ended up purchasing had been listed on the web for over a year prior to us even contacting the broker to take a look. It was 2+ hours to drive and take a look, but there's worse ways to blow a saturday.

We had some circumstances work to our advantage in that the PO was looking to upsize and HAD to sell before they could get serious about buying another boat - and the same broker had virtually the exact same boat listed close to us for $12K less than the one we looked at. And, of course, the economy was seriously in the dumper so moving what most consider a "luxury" item was difficult at best.

They ended up changing their asking price to compete with the other boat before we ever made our initial offer. We ended up meeting in the middle and they threw in the dink, which they had originally wanted to keep. All pending the survey, of course. I had no issue paying for the survey, knowing that unless something major was discovered - she would be ours.

The survey turned up nothing significant and the deal was done.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we went with our gut, trusted it, and haven't regretted it for a second. If it's supposed to be, it'll happen without having to force it.

Cheers!

 

[Wally199526X]

Probably Trouble

in my search for a boat, we have looked at a lot of them and only two are within our specifications and budget...
I made an offer on a cal 3-34, and it was countered with an amount 3000 higher than my initial offer...
I DO like the boat (but not in love with it yet) and, I WILL have a full survey done, if we come to an agreement on price. I am reserving the right to decline if the survey is unfavorable, which I think is normal.

with the features that the boat has, how does one come to know what a reasonable value should be?

.....the hull is sound, but the rubrail rubber is chalky...
..... someone tied a rope to one of the forward support legs on the pulpit and ripped it out of the deck. a 6x8inch area was affected. it has been repaired and looks nice, except for it needs paint or gelcoat. pulpit leg was sectioned with the push-fit fittings.
......the dodger windows are yellowed and opaque... need new windows sewn in
these are the only visible things that could use some TLC....

the westerbeke 30 has unknown hours, but is the original engine. runs perfectly fine

NO previous owner modifications thruout the boat, inside or out, all original and in great visable condition

the only known problem or disclosed problem is this....
this past month when we had temps down in the teens, the raw water strainer froze and broke... the boat flooded and it is reported that it never got any deeper than 3 inches on the salon floor.... EDIT, I forgot to mention, this boat is setting in fresh water, so it was a fresh water flood....
the upholstery is all in very nice condition and does not seem to have been flooded.

I have a full list of the features, accommodations and onboard electronics, and it seems like a nice boat....
it is clean inside, everything is in order, but it has an odor, like maybe a sanitation hose froze and broke also....
like any boat, its not without its little issues... the stink is the most immediate problem.

I have see asking prices on these boats, on the internet, ranging from 38,000 on down to salvage prices.. any advice you may have to offer is welcome.. thanks

Looks like you have lots of work ahead. Can't tell whether you low-balled the owner if there is room to above the $3,000 higher counter. There is too much to assume to say buy it or walk away, but keep in mind your cost is going to include not only all of the repairs that come up, but the survey and the cost to get it to your waters (if necessary).

 

[Chris Patterson]

I had forgotten this, but we rehabbed a Saber last year, and it had about eight or so inches of rain water in it. The interior wood wasn't too bad, we've got an older guy that is a good craftsman that fixes these problems well. If you can wait that long.
But it has a Nanni diesel in it, that was not sitting inline of the boat. The prop shaft goes out the hull to one side of the rudder. Yucch.

Oh yeah, we pulled it out and freshened it up. Not too bad, the alternator and starter were bad of course. (I had about forgotten this little boat)..

 

[barnstormer]

WALK AWAY NOW! It's a buyers market with plenty of BETTER boats out there that haven't been water logged!

 

[enorfleet]

Almost all negotiations settle very close to halfway between the bid and ask, so don't be shy about continuing to haggle. If the negotiated price is one you are comfortable with given what you know, do the survey and ask for concessions for undisclosed problems that come up in the survey. A reasonable owner will work you. If he's not a reasonable owner, you can move on. All you've lost is a few hundred bucks for the survey.

 

[HukilauMike]

The thing that stuck with me about your description of the boat was the "stink". I've been on enough boats to come to the conclusion that if it stinks, I don't want to buy it. There is a reasonable chance that you will never find what makes the boat smell; there are too many nooks, crannies and possible sources to be sure that you will be able to get rid of the stink. Every other one of the issues you cite can always be fixed with time and/or money (and its up to you if its worth spending that much); the smell: very possibly out of your control. I passed on a boat that was otherwise perfect to me (make, model, year, condition, amenties, price) because it smelled like a NYC subway station. Good luck.

 

[NotCook]

A boat's only worth what someone's willing to pay for it.

First, Rich is right. And as others have mentioned, this is a buyer's market. Used boats are hard to sell, and sellers should be happy to have a potential buyer who is seriously considering their boat. Don't be afraid to hold to a price that you can be happy with. In the end, it is what the boat is worth to you that counts. Rememeber the old adage about the two best days in a boat owner's life.

Lots of good point about cost of ownership. You will be shocked how the costs go up as the boat size increases. Trust me on this!

cadycelia (corrected, not Sumner - sorry!) made a comment about having the seller pay for the survey. I disagree. That means the survey is working for the Seller, not for you. You want his loyalty to be with you as his employer, not the Seller.

Keep in mind that Surveyors make mistakes, and they miss things, no matter how well recommended they come I can tell you stories...). Also, check to see to what extent they include the engine. Some exclude any mechanical evaluation of the engine and consider that a separate survey. In this case, you do want the engine surveyed.

Your offer relating to the survey should be, "...subject to a satisfactory survey, in buyer's sole discretion.". You don't want an argument over whether the survey was satisfactory or not! You essentially want a "get our of jail free" card.

In the end, it is you who has to be satisfied with the deal. You are the one who will be paying the costs, dealing with the issues, and living with the decision.

Good luck with your decision!

 

[centerline]

WALK AWAY NOW! It's a buyers market with plenty of BETTER boats out there that haven't been water logged!

you evidently mis-read what I wrote...

but i will explain in further detail....
we very seldom get temps here on on the coastal rivers that are cold enough to do this kind of damage to a boat....

but we did this winter and it broke the bowl on the seawater intake strainer and flooded the boat up to about 3 inches on the cabin floor.
And, because its about 80miles up river from the bay, it was freshwater that came into the boat. not seawater.

it was seen within a couple of hours and pumped out and a new bowl was installed to repair it....

I dont feel that a sudden flood like this makes the boat unacceptable in any way... BUT, the way the boat is taken care of AFTER the issue is noticed, will absolutely make a difference

no gear, cushions or other objects (other than the carpet, which was removed), show any sign of water intrusion or damage... the only residual problem is the hull has condensate inside it, which is understandable when there is a lack of free ventilation...

your point is taken into consideration, and the survey on thursday will tell the story, and be the deciding factor.
visually, there are no problems with this boat inside or out, EXCEPT for the yellowed dodger windows/rotten material, and a repaired area in the deck where one of the pulpit legs got ripped out.
it runs great, but the engine survey will tell us a bit more about it.

I fully believe the value is there (at this price), providing there are no hidden problems.

 

[Apex]

good luck on the survey centerline! In my opinion a boat with FEWER modifications are more desireable than a heavily modified boat. Perhaps it comes from automobile experience in that mods are usually NOT improvements to the MFR's solution and/or are poorly executed.
For the area on the pulpit that was repaired, if the repair looks sound and the surveyor confers, then it sounds like you are happy with the deal. If YOU are happy, then the deal was good.

 

[arf145]

I agree with Apex regarding the few mods. I prefer things close to original vs. too much interesting PO work. From your description, I didn't have the "walk away" feeling that many did. It sounds like you like the boat. If you like it at the negotiated price, good for you. I hope the survey goes well.

 

[Sumner]

....Sumner made a comment about having the seller pay for the survey. I disagree. ....

Not me , someone else, we paid for ours,

Sum

 

[centerline]

I agree with Apex regarding the few mods. I prefer things close to original vs. too much interesting PO work. From your description, I didn't have the "walk away" feeling that many did. It sounds like you like the boat. If you like it at the negotiated price, good for you. I hope the survey goes well.

thanks... we have one of the best marine surveyors in the area working for us.
hopefully I have done my initial inspections well and there wont be any serious surprises that arise.

I dont expect to get a boat at a giveaway price, but neither do I want to get into one that needs a LOT of expensive work done to make it nice...
I believe this one is a fair deal on both counts...

although the owner has given up on it in the last couple years due to financial and health problems, the boat IS very well outfitted with quality electronics (Garmin, Furuno, Clipper, Autohelm, standard horizon) that are only 6 years old... and many other nice and expensive upgrades to equipment and furnishings...
but as I have said, there have been no mods done to spoil the basic beauty of it.
all the interior wood is still as good and shiny as new, and the upholstery was redone 5 years ago....
basically, the current owner bought a nice boat, upgraded it and sunk too much money into it and now has fallen on tougher times. and still owes money on it!

its unfortunate for him that the boat flooded, in that it devalued the boat because he is in no position to keep the boat and work thru the minor issues, nor does he even have the time or resources to dry it out properly. (just the basic repairs and pump out was done)
we happened to come along and find it at the right time, and the flooding may be the one thing that gets us a nicer and better equipped boat than our budget could otherwise afford.

I have accepted his counter offer, but the sale still hinges on the survey outcome on thursday....

 

[shemandr]

Please keep us updated. This has become a narrative that we would like to see the conclusion of. It is educational for many on this forum.

 

[woodster]

basically, the current owner bought a nice boat, upgraded it and sunk too much money into it and now has fallen on tougher times. and still owes money on it!

based on that he may not be able to go any lower than his last price......and i read that you have met his price depending on the out come of the survey......good luck and hope you guys can make a deal.....

regards

woody

 

[dziedzicmj]

Fully agree that the surveyor has to work for you (the buyer), so you pay for it.

Don't do a survey, unless you are really willing to buy this boat. This way, if it is positive, you have a survey (your insurance company would ask for it anyway - i.e. money well spent); if it is negative, i.e. the survey discovered things that you did not know about this boat, you run (the money was well spent). You win either way.

 

[lillia28]

Some information to use as you feel appropriate. negotions are dance. From years of (professional) stock trading and watching my wife's real estate business the steps usually go like this Seller's offer, buyer counter offer, seller conter offer, buyer counter, seller 2nd counter, buyer buys or walks. negotions that end in a sale, the final price will almost always be exactly half way between the sellers offer and the buyer's first bid. These are not rules, just observations.
That being said, it is definately a buyers market. The "cost of carry" on a sail boat is very high. The seller is likely looking at a summer marina fees. Pay you or pay the Marina. If the seller is stubborn or unrealistic, well do you want to do business with crazy people?
The right way to buy a boat is to look until you find one you can't live without, one you don't care how much it costs, one you have to have. It aint the cheap way or the finantially prudent way, but its the way that makes you smile every time you write a check. When you write enough checks, you begin to hate the boat and just want out at any price. This describes the perfect buyer when you are selling, and the perfect seller when you are buying. They are the same guy 5 or so years apart. And waiting for those perfect guys is why the market is so notchy. Yes its a lot like marriage and divorce. and as Capt Kirk said, now you know why boats are called "she". sorry no spelchek.
Lou

 

[Levin]

Centerline,

Just something from the "what it's worth department": I've had three surveys done in my life (two home surveys and one boat survey) and they all missed huge problems in each case. I know you said your guy is one of the best and maybe I just got unlucky all three times but I think surveys are mostly there to make you fell good and make the insurance company say due diligence is was done. Be cautious how much stock you put in what they tell you because I almost guarantee you that they will miss something.

Take care,
-Levin

 

[Chris Patterson]

That was an astute observation by Lou, ie: the same guy five or so years apart. That is good.

 

[centerline]

Centerline,

Just something from the "what it's worth department": I've had three surveys done in my life (two home surveys and one boat survey) and they all missed huge problems in each case. I know you said your guy is one of the best and maybe I just got unlucky all three times but I think surveys are mostly there to make you fell good and make the insurance company say due diligence is was done. Be cautious how much stock you put in what they tell you because I almost guarantee you that they will miss something.

Take care,
-Levin

the survey is scheduled to begin at 8:30am this morning, and honestly, I feel kinda the same way as you do... as mechanical as I am, and very electrical savvy, and I have been around old boats all my life, in my mind I feel I am qualified to know what a decent boat is....(but its exactly this thought that has put some people in financial distress over their boat)

as for the insurance companies requirements, they have no idea of my qualifications, or that of some other guy who may have 60years of boat maintenance skills under his belt.... so they would never accept our word for it even though they are willing to accept a piece of paper from the guy who has had some sort of formal training in the inspection process, no matter if he is only 20yrs old and fresh off the farm from kansas or not.... its the piece of paper that counts.
(not that there is anything wrong with being from a farm in kansas, but they seem to have a lack of seagoing vessels there to gain this kind of life experience from)...

and of course, the broker/salesperson always has "their" guy that they refer business to.... its kind of like a "lets all share the buyers wealth" program....

BUT.... a second opinion is reassuring in several respects, and what he misses, maybe I have already seen it, or maybe it is an insignificant item that is not related to the safety or soundness of the vessel.....
either way, as this will be the first boat of this size and with these accommodations I have ever purchased, I feel more comfortable with the survey, than I do without it...