my offer was rejected and countered.. cal 3-34

[centerline]

in my search for a boat, we have looked at a lot of them and only two are within our specifications and budget...
I made an offer on a cal 3-34, and it was countered with an amount 3000 higher than my initial offer...
I DO like the boat (but not in love with it yet) and, I WILL have a full survey done, if we come to an agreement on price. I am reserving the right to decline if the survey is unfavorable, which I think is normal.

with the features that the boat has, how does one come to know what a reasonable value should be?

.....the hull is sound, but the rubrail rubber is chalky...
..... someone tied a rope to one of the forward support legs on the pulpit and ripped it out of the deck. a 6x8inch area was affected. it has been repaired and looks nice, except for it needs paint or gelcoat. pulpit leg was sectioned with the push-fit fittings.
......the dodger windows are yellowed and opaque... need new windows sewn in
these are the only visible things that could use some TLC....

the westerbeke 30 has unknown hours, but is the original engine. runs perfectly fine

NO previous owner modifications thruout the boat, inside or out, all original and in great visable condition

the only known problem or disclosed problem is this....
this past month when we had temps down in the teens, the raw water strainer froze and broke... the boat flooded and it is reported that it never got any deeper than 3 inches on the salon floor.... EDIT, I forgot to mention, this boat is setting in fresh water, so it was a fresh water flood....
the upholstery is all in very nice condition and does not seem to have been flooded.

I have a full list of the features, accommodations and onboard electronics, and it seems like a nice boat....
it is clean inside, everything is in order, but it has an odor, like maybe a sanitation hose froze and broke also....
like any boat, its not without its little issues... the stink is the most immediate problem.

I have see asking prices on these boats, on the internet, ranging from 38,000 on down to salvage prices.. any advice you may have to offer is welcome.. thanks

 

[higgs]

Important info missing" What year and how much.

Yellowed dodger windows tell me your canvas may well be shot.

Replacing sanitation hoses is a big, nasty job. Be sure the head tank connections are accessible.

Flooded floor? How long was it submerged and the fact that this happened indicated the boat was improperly winterized. Poor winterization indicates an owner who does not care for his boat properly. Translate that to the engine, sails, rigging, etc.

Unless the price on this boat is really, really good, I would move on.

 

[Rick D]

Higgs Is Smarter Than I...

...but I think winterization would be rarely necessary or practiced along the coast of Oregon. But still, good point in general. Having said that, I would not bow out yet especially since you will get a contingent survey which will flesh out issues.

As far as price, as Higgs points out, we don't know the magnitude of the offers & counters. However, $3K is certainly within a negotiating range. And, price varies a lot by location, so local knowledge trumps. I'd ask around the docks to get local opinions and referrals to people who might know the local market.

The pulpit is relatively minor compared to other interest points on this vintage boat. But, again, that will be fleshed out by the surveyor. Sanitation hoses or bladder-type holding tanks are nasty to replace, but we all have to get out hands dirty sometime. It could also be from bilge water or from water trapped in the hull when she broke her strainer. All are remediable.

have fun!

 

[Sumner]

....Yellowed dodger windows tell me your canvas may well be shot....

Probably right and even making your own dodger isn't that cheap.

......Replacing sanitation hoses is a big, nasty job. Be sure the head tank connections are accessible..

Yep had to do that and still not finished with all the new plumbing. Again an area that you can put some money into. For us a new larger holding tank and new Lavac Toilet and all new lines and thru-hulls.

Our boat had the same stink. Couldn't believe that some people will list a boat smelling like that. Not real overwhelming but not pleasant either.

You say the boat is in fresh water. Lake Washington? Can you get it to the ocean via the water or will it have to be hauled.

The boat could still be a deal if the price is right,

Sum

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[FastOlson]

If you are searching for a modern classic (like that Cal)... and might consider another boat...
there is a guy in our YC with a very clean and well-equipped ODay 34. He and his wife just moved to a trawler and really want to get their sailboat sold. It's been around Vancouver Island and is ready to go again.

Contact me back channel for his contact into if you're interested.
(I have no personal or financial interest in the sale, FWIW.)

*Just click on my screen name to get a dialog box to send me an email.

Loren
Portland, OR

ps: be sure to get the V-drive checked out in that Cal, also.

 

[centerline]

Important info missing" What year and how much.

Yellowed dodger windows tell me your canvas may well be shot.

Replacing sanitation hoses is a big, nasty job. Be sure the head tank connections are accessible.

Flooded floor? How long was it submerged and the fact that this happened indicated the boat was improperly winterized. Poor winterization indicates an owner who does not care for his boat properly. Translate that to the engine, sails, rigging, etc.

Unless the price on this boat is really, really good, I would move on.

your last sentence..... this is exactly what I am trying to find out what is a really really good price?
someone here should know what features add to the value of a boat.... I forgot to mention this boat was flooded by fresh water, not salt water.... it has been a fresh water boat for many years..

and ive considered the possibility that the dodger may have to be fully replaced, rather than just new windows.


and Yes... the owner has lost all interest in this boat and has no interest to put any more money into its upkeep.

Cal 3-34, 1977, lets say i may be able to pick it up for 16thou..... but I still have to pay for a survey.
that is about 15hundred above low book value... i dont know how low book value is figured, or high book value...
some boats and brands will sell higher or lower than the book values, so what are the determining factors....
if it is in fact a broken sanitation hose, how much is that worth off the asking price?

I do my own work and dont have to pay for it to be done, so short of cutting the boat in half to change out a tank, I should be able to do it at a reasonable cost myself.

if the survey finds the boat to be sound and in order, but sanitation problem to be a real issue, and maybe the motor is about worn out,(although it runs great) is that still enough reason to walk away at this price?

 

[Stu Jackson]

centerline, $16K is not a bad price for that boat, I've seen Mark Is advertised at $24K.

But your questions are impossible to answer on the internet. We haven't seen the boat. Did water get near/into the engine? What's the elecftrical system like?

Smells? www.pureayre.com

Good luck, but we have NO clue as to how to advise you.

Have you personally done any of the ideas suggested here?

http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=102541

 

[higgs]

I don't think think this is one of those too good to pass up deals. A freind of mine bought a 70s vitage Morgan 33 for that price and it was in real nice shape. 8 years ago my 73 Irwin 32 went for 12K with a rebuilt A4, new sails, and in VG condition. I think you can do better.

 

[centerline]

centerline, $16K is not a bad price for that boat, I've seen Mark Is advertised at $24K.

But your questions are impossible to answer on the internet. We haven't seen the boat. Did water get near/into the engine? What's the elecftrical system like?

Smells? www.pureayre.com

Good luck, but we have NO clue as to how to advise you.

Have you personally done any of the ideas suggested here?

http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=102541

I fully understand that these questions cannot be answered, but for every little bit of information i have from others that i can filter thru, the more it will add to my knowledge base of this boat.

all systems work fine, and the engine still runs great after the flood....

I went thru the boat pretty well on my initial look when i made the offer, but tomorrow i am going back to do a further inspection to see if it is something I want to pursue at that price. if it is, we will order a full stem to stern survey.... to make sure where we are in it.

 

[BobM]

3K is within the realm of negotiation

A friend was within a few thou on a Hunter 37. He wanted to pay the alreay low price of 25K. I encouraged him to go ahead with the survey and negotiate afterward. He did, and long story short bought her for $17K as the survey turned up that a previously repaired wed spot on deck was wet again. The owner was sick of the boat and cut the price by the yard quote of $8K. He still hasn't fixed the small wet area of the fore deck.

Ultimately you just can't agree to a price without a survey. And we can't tell you how the price should be adjusted without a survey. You know a new dodger is X and you do your own work. The price is a reasonable starting place. The only modification I will suggest is to be sure to get a surveryor who knows sailboats and to get agreement that you will pay a prorated fee if you chose to abandon the survey. Then have the surveyor do the showstopper first. Severe hull blisters and a wet deck would stop me. Lucky for me a conscientious surveyor told me he would shut down a survey and credit me the remainder towards my next survey. That next survey turned out to be a little far out of the way but I was happy to pay the extra mileage for such an honest man.

 

[higgs]

Good for you on the survey. It is foolish to spend this kind of money w/o one.

 

[higgs]

An additional thought. Cals are well made boats that are certainly capable of some limited offshore passages. Do you need that? I bought my present boat with the idea I might do Bermuda. Now I am in my 60s and I ain't doing Bermuda. i coulda, shoulda, kept my Irwin 32 as it did everything I now do. My present boat is a great boat, but more then I need.

 

[centerline]

An additional thought. Cals are well made boats that are certainly capable of some limited offshore passages. Do you need that? I bought my present boat with the idea I might do Bermuda. Now I am in my 60s and I ain't doing Bermuda. i coulda, shoulda, kept my Irwin 32 as it did everything I now do. My present boat is a great boat, but more then I need.

i dont think bermuda is in the plans, but a dream of running to mexico in the winters and towards alaska in the summers are well within our plans... maybe a crossing to hawaii.... who knows when, if, or why, but I want a boat that is reasonably well suited to handle the task.

there is SOOO much beauty right here in the pacific north west, that we wont have to go far, for an exciting and dramatic change of scenery if we dont want to...

 

[Ted]

in my search for a boat, we have looked at a lot of them and only two are within our specifications and budget...

Centerline, you may have answered your own question with your first sentence. If you look at a lot of boats, you will begin to form your own opinions about what is a fair price. As you look at the boats that are out of your present budget, seriously think about how much time and money it will take to bring your budget boat up to the standards you are ultimately expecting. I think you will find that when all is said and done, you will have spent much more than you thought you would. One major item that many buyers often do not pay enough attention to is the condition of the sails. New sails are a major expense. Continue to do your homework as you are and when the right boat comes along you will be knowledgeable enough to recognize that it's the one for you. Good luck with your search.

 

[fa102]

in my search for a boat, we have looked at a lot of them and only two are within our specifications and budget...
I made an offer on a cal 3-34, and it was countered with an amount 3000 higher than my initial offer...
I DO like the boat (but not in love with it yet) and, I WILL have a full survey done, if we come to an agreement on price. I am reserving the right to decline if the survey is unfavorable, which I think is normal.

with the features that the boat has, how does one come to know what a reasonable value should be?

.....the hull is sound, but the rubrail rubber is chalky...
..... someone tied a rope to one of the forward support legs on the pulpit and ripped it out of the deck. a 6x8inch area was affected. it has been repaired and looks nice, except for it needs paint or gelcoat. pulpit leg was sectioned with the push-fit fittings.
......the dodger windows are yellowed and opaque... need new windows sewn in
these are the only visible things that could use some TLC....

the westerbeke 30 has unknown hours, but is the original engine. runs perfectly fine

NO previous owner modifications thruout the boat, inside or out, all original and in great visable condition

the only known problem or disclosed problem is this....
this past month when we had temps down in the teens, the raw water strainer froze and broke... the boat flooded and it is reported that it never got any deeper than 3 inches on the salon floor.... EDIT, I forgot to mention, this boat is setting in fresh water, so it was a fresh water flood....
the upholstery is all in very nice condition and does not seem to have been flooded.

I have a full list of the features, accommodations and onboard electronics, and it seems like a nice boat....
it is clean inside, everything is in order, but it has an odor, like maybe a sanitation hose froze and broke also....
like any boat, its not without its little issues... the stink is the most immediate problem.

I have see asking prices on these boats, on the internet, ranging from 38,000 on down to salvage prices.. any advice you may have to offer is welcome.. thanks

====
Centerline,

Used boat values are based primarily on the valuation guides such as; BUC Research, NADA and ABOS. Values are based on vessel year, model, equipment & condition (each valuation guide has their own condition & value scales; in may marine survey practice I use BUC Research). BUC Research is by paid subscription; NADA offers basic value info free on-line.
Suggest that you check the value on NADA and ask your marine survey or to look up the BUC value. The offering price typically should be within the ranges provided by the valuation guides. It would be problematic if the offering price exceeds the top of the valuation guide ranges.
Be mindful that banks / marine finance companies and insurance underwriters are familiar with all of the valuation guides and except in extraordinary circumstances will not finance or insure at values greater than the valuation guides. That situation was encountered last year, by a survey client, looking to replace their storm Sandy destroyed 30' sloop. Each of the vessels they were interested in (located in the NJ / NY / New England area) were listed for sale at prices thousands of dollars higher than their maximum BUC value. Contacting his insurer and finance company with those numbers the client was advised that the insured value would not exceed the value guide range nor would the bank finance such a purchase
price.
Keep in mind that you have not yet surveyed the vessel so its current condition & value are unknown.

F.A.

 

[Meriachee]

If that engine got water into it, and wasn't dealt with properly, and immediately; run. A couple of cans of RevX will make it run like a top. For now. I'd look at that oil really, really closely, and if it was changed 10 minutes ago, that too might be a pretty good indicator.
As well as the transmission. The plumbing can be replaced (yeah it's ugly) but that isn't the end of the world. Having to call the Westerbeke distributor might have meant the other, higher priced boat is suddenly a better value, and that would be a very nasty thing to discover in a week or two.
Do your due diligence.

Cheers
Gary

 

[azguy]

I wouldn't pay anything over book for the boat you have described, pre or post survey. A boat like that, or any boat for that matter, could be for sale 3 months from now, very easily...

You didn't describe the standing or running rigging or the sails.. all of which could be big money fast...

Plus. the whole water intrusion thing makes me very nervous, was it more water than the bilge pump could handle or does the bilge not work or.....

 

[richk]

A boat's only worth what someone's willing to pay for it.

 

[Jackdaw]

Center,

I have to tell you, I get a little nervous when I see someone fretting over a few thousand bucks when buying a 34 foot boat. Get ready to write a stream of big checks. That boat will cost you well over 3 times the operating costs of your 25. Slips, launching, retrieval, bottom cleaning, sails, motor work etc.

Just make sure you understand what you are getting yourself into. A 30 year old 34 footer has exactly the same operating costs as a new one, even if its 1/10 the procurement cost.

 

[Skipper]

Patience is gold. It took me over a year to find our current boat, after moving to the East Coast. There will always be another boat, at about the same price and in better condition, so settling for a dubious example is not necessary.

2 things would bother me:

1. The flooding. When I was shopping, I looked at several Sabres from the 80's. Many of them had what I call the "Sabre waterline" inside the cabin. The boats were known to leak from the topsides, and I guess that issue combined with neglect damaged the boats. The result was a hideous discoloration on the interior wood, mold, rot, corrosion, wiring shot, and rust. One short-term flood may be less damaging, but It would bother me.

2. The boat in question looks to have had a PO who was a landlubber. Many other things may be wrong with this boat, or soon will be, due to lack of maint and shocking repairs.

I'd walk. Wait for the good one; it will come.