My new saildrive

[Charles Erwin]

Mark

Cool oil is good oil. Cool water pumped through the leg will reduce oil temperature. Over-pressure declines as temperature declines. Otherwise consider discussing whether enlarging drainback orifices (or adding possible drillings) in the top plate?

Charles

 

[Mark Maulden]

It is what it is..It is still in warranty and I don’t have the expertise to redesign drain back passages. Obviously, the oil (ATF) is now cooler and not expanding as much. wonder if thats why Volvo etc went to engine oil? Thing is..I asked numerous times up front if I could cap those lines off and draw raw water from a thru hull and the answer was always yes. That is because I dont want to have to take the saildrive apart every “few” years to clear out water tubes. So, I will have to live with it knowing Twin Disc, obviously, did not test this configuration and will need to change their position on this..

 

[Mark Maulden]

I did another run yesterday. Fifth time. After 35 min., fluid starting bubbling out the vent. A lot slower though. This was at 2000 rpm. Since the amount was a lot less, i let it flow and throttled down to 1000 rpm and it quit. I then tried around 1300 and then 1500. 1500 is seemingly the break point where it starts doing it while up to temp. Another discussion next week. Mon is mem day, so I lose a day there....

 

[Mark Maulden]

One more week gone and have heard nothing. Supposedly, Twin Disc is testing one but nobody knows to what parameters and the Italians (or Beta UK)are not communicating. Wonder if their testing came up with the same problem. Sent another email to Beta West. He is just as frustrated as me. After this, I think it might be time for Beta UK and the Italians to hear directly from me again. I do have all their personal company email addresses. Wonder if they hoping I’m just going to give up.. Currently cycling the Rhein Rvr all of June and it’s a pain to have to work this at the same time..

 

[Dennis Kitchen]

I'll bet you're right that they've discovered that they do have a problem, and not easy to solve.
Dennis

 

[Mark Maulden]

So here’s the latest..I’m back from cycling in Europe and Beta corporate and the Italians are questioning why I’m in neutral at 1800-2000 rpm for so long. Maybe this is a “severe” operating mode...Hmmm...I say because battery charging doesn’t even start til around 1300 rpm. And, sometimes I want to make hot water, and, if I have the fuel system open and closed, I run somewhat fast for awhile after closing back up. Last year, I was always at a dock so no alternator batt charging, saildrive, or hot water issues. No problems. So now, they want to lower my speeds on neutral and put a smaller pulley on the alternator. Naturally, the tach will be off and tomorrow or next day they (and I) will install a doo dad that will enable a calibration of the tach. It’s offered by Balmar for alternators that are mismatched to the tach in terms of number of poles. I said fine. I will try it this summer and I will not turn the charger on at the dock and spend some time on the hook which I should be able to do this year. Still haven’t heard anything on my time/material submittal...Not holding my breath. I firmly believe I discovered a corner situation that they did not test for. The Italians said they tested a unit off the shelf “even up to 20 min”..We can't get a definitive test procedure as to what they tested to. So, thursday, we’re taking off for 5 wks (hopefully) and we’ll see what happens. If it still manifests itself, then it’s a replacement this winter most likely a ZF. The Volvo and Yanmars are just a rebranded ZF... Also, made in Italy I believe...

 

[jssailem]

Good Luck Mark.
Nothing like a retired engineer as a test bed.
And it appears this benefit has been taken as a free feature of the relationship.

 

[Mark Maulden]

So the “doo dad” was not the Balmar part but was the means by Beta to re program the electronic tach in the Beta panel. Worked well. The original alt pulley is 65 mm and they shipped a smaller one (supposedly 51 mm). I put a current probe around the alt output wire to battery and fired up at idle. Increased the speed noting when the charge curve flattened out which was still about 1800 rpm. I did turn the shore power charger off the previous day and let the refer, lights etc run to draw the bank down. Not much difference. I called Balmar (30 min down the road) and discussed the situation with the saildrive and alt output blah blah...More emails to Beta West. Nobody can understand my test data. Balmar recommended to replace the 120a alternator with an XT-170a which has a different stator winding design that allows full output at much lower engine rpm. So, today was getting the boat ready for a cruise and I had a thought that since the test data and the math (pulley ratios) are not gybing, I would start at the beginning and measure the pulley dimensions myself and go from there..And whadda you know...the alt pulley size is 59mm and not 51mm. So the ratio went from 2.0 to 2.2 instead of the expected 2.0 to 2.6. Not a whole lot of difference but it starts explaining the test data. Going cruising for a few weeks and will get some more data but I know what the result will be..If they want me to operate in neutral at lower rpms, then the XT alternator will be required. We can go smaller and smaller in pulley sizes but then the contact area between pulley and belt keeps getting smaller and also stresses the belt with tighter radiuses..the only other path is a saildrive replacement to a ZF..My testing laboratory continues and I’m not getting a thing for it...

 

[Terry Cox]

“doo dad”

Happy 4th of July, Mark. Quite the epoch you've been through. Actually, gizmo a more fitting name for this new added device, IMHO. Gizmos are very complicated, usually covered in secrecy, no one knows what they do except the designer, absent any service manual or diagrams, protected by a patent pending, probably just a placebo of sorts.

Anyway, enjoy your well-deserved cruise, please let us know your whereabouts. Pics if you can, and try to forget about that new sail drive. At least while it delivers you safely back home. Be safe and have fun.

 

[Mark Maulden]

So, we finished our two cruises and I started measuring pulleys. There are a lot of ways to do this. 1)bottom of the groove, 2)top of the groove, 3)somewhere in between, 4)across the pulley diameter. Keep in mind we’re dealing with mm..Bottom of groove didn’t work as no measurement device could get there. Top of the groove worked ok except my digital caliper was not deep enough on the larger crank pulley. Somewhere in between worked good as I had a manual large caliper that I used and worked well. Had to use it like measuring a spark plug gap. Measuring across the pulley was a bit sketchy. Sometimes it worked and sometimes not. Perhaps it was not perfectly round. With all this , I came up with ratios of 2.1 - 2.4..Keep in mind mm here...So then I got the brainy idea that why not put reflective tape on the alt pulley and put laser tach on it. 2.09 ratio on my cheapie Harbor Freight tach. Borrowed one from the local yard and it concurred. In my world, test data says it all. With that ratio, to achieve the full 120a output, it would take an engine speed of ~ 1500 rpm which is getting into dangerous territory for oil puking. We could go down one size in pulley size, but, I’m already getting belt dust on the K-6 belt. Had a discussion with Beta West and said I wanted the XT alternator and I would be happy with that pending my test results. The other questions remaining is would the Xt fit in physical space that the series 6 currently does. With my research, the XT is a smaller form factor than the series 6 and I recommended they do the research..Still nothing for my time....

 

[jssailem]

Mark... your time is "Priceless".

How did the cruises go? How was the performance of the engine?

 

[Mark Maulden]

Cruises were fine. No saildrive issues, but I did not let myself get into that scenario. Engine was great. I have no issues with the Beta engine. I have a starting issue which I am going to address in a separate thread..

 

[jviss]

I have no issues with the Beta engine. I have a starting issue...

?

 

[Mark Maulden]

Starting issue is (pretty sure) on the boat side. New thread in “engines”..

 

[Mark Maulden]

“The other questions remaining is would the Xt fit in physical space that the series 6 currently does.”.
Turns out the XT does not fit in the physical space. The output stud would hit the heat exchanger. Damn!! But, I did run the engine for an hr at 1800 rpm and no problems with smaller pulley. Tomorrow is another test with discharged batts and determine rpm that the alternator generates full output and another 1 hr run. I think we can also go down a few more mm in pulley size. Assuming all this works, this will most likely be the final configuration. I’m also getting grey stuff out the breather and settles on the top plate. I think this is the lithium grease used on assembly at the factory which combines with the ATF creating more liquid volume. As time goes on, its less and less...The major concession on my part is I have to pull raw water from the saildrive instead of a thru hull. Actually, there is more flow from the saildrive. I just don’t relish cleaning it out yrs down the road..But maybe that’s the next owners problem...If this all goes to hell, then it’s a saildrive swap to a ZF..

 

[Larrydickie]

Was this issue resolved for you in the end? I had the same issue, but found the top vent was a little loose, along with it needing some for of washer. I installed a fiber washer, and cracked the vent down more tightly, which ended the ATF leak.

 

[Terry Cox]

Sheesh, wore out just reading all your stuff, Mark. What an adventure. Probably pull the plug on the whole boat thing, were it me.

 

[Mark Maulden]

Well, I’ve used it all summer without issues, however, did not spend time at anchor thus drawing batteries down and recharging. I have run several successful tests dockside though. If I want to utilize the Balmar to its maximum, the engine rpms would have to be about 2100 rpm which is in dangerous territory for ATF leaking. We did go to a smaller alternator belt but not much difference. There is one more smaller size (48mm) that we can try but Beta West is not working with me much. I think he is hoping I will go away and I probably will unless this issue surfaces again. Then its new saildrive time with a ZF. I also have some questions of Balmar concerning belt wrap with smaller pulleys. I also asked the question if a larger crank pulley is possible. No answer..Far as I know, the Italians and Beta UK have not inquired as to the status. At least to me..To Larry’s comment, as you can tell via prior posts, ATF was coming out the vent.

 

[Stewart stephenbson]

Hi Mark
I read you comments about oil leak from breather from sea prop 60. I have same issue with a yacht i purchased a month ago. Did the manufactures know the cause of the problem or did you find a solution yourself.

 

[Mark Maulden]

Hi Stewart. It is mostly resolved. As you could previously ascertain, I have to draw raw water through the leg instead of from a separate thru Hull. Not what I initially wanted. Last summer, our cruising habits put us at marinas with shore power. Sorta happens with grand kids etc. So, I did not spend time at anchor and having to charge batts via engine alternator. The bottom line is I cannot use the alternator to full potential as it requires a higher engine rpm In neutral. With smaller alt. Pulley, it helps. This summer with covid, we will be spending time at anchor. Also, the mfgr seems to know of the problem as they sent different top plates to try. My situation is well documented with Beta Marine. I have also communicated with mfgr directly and have their emails..where are you located? Be glad to help out where I can...