My Lower Forestay Fitting Ruptured Free Today In Heavy Wind

Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
(Also posting this here in case any owners of mid/large Cherubini Hunters don't also follow the ask-all-sailors forum.)

See the attached photos for the before and after of the failed piece.

I thought to post this experience for all that have older boats as I do. I bought my boat in 2007 with invoice evidence that the standing rigging had been replaced just a year (or so) before. And also I knew that the boat had been on the hard away from salt and sailing stress for almost the entire time since the work prior to my purchase.

I've read that standing rigging is supposed be good for a decade or so on average. But after some posts on SBO last year by Maine Sail and others about crevice corrosion to chain plates and other standing rigging connections to the actual boat, and also witnessing a boat returning from sea under power with it's mast dangling along the side, I soon thereafter commissioned a well-known SF area rigging firm to do an informal survey of my rig. A few items where highlighted ... but not the one that failed today.

Sailing on a close reach in strong winds that briefly had water over my port rail even though I already had the main on it's second reef point and a only 90% jib out, the wind suddenly shifted more towards a beam reach angle. (No real alarm about this though since instantaneous gusts and wind direction shifts are normal in the Hurricane Gulch area off Sausalito). About this same moment, a sound/shudder reverberated through the boat. Looking forward, I saw that the bottom of my furler drum/forestay turnbuckle was now trashing around on the leeward side of the boat forward of the forward lower shroud. After the initial "oh-crap-this-ain't-good" moment, but relieved that the mast was still standing, I changed course to a broad reach. Started the engine and throttled up to take some of the wind stress off the rig. Then engaged the auto pilot to maintain the broad reach course. I went forward to wrap my spare halyard around my bow sampson post. And got a line from my rope locker to tether the bottom of the forestay turnbuckle to the toe rail to stop the trashing. Then finally doused the main sail. Took a deep breath and hoped for the best while I made for my marina (or wherever safe anchorage). Closer to my berth, the wind calmed so I headed there and I was able to gather up a lot of the loose jib and wrap it more secure with a piece of line.

Doubt that I did it all right, but the boat made it back into the berth with the mast still up and a sense of the rig being safely secure.

I've attached a picture of the piece that failed. From an internet search, it's identified as a double jaw toggle. The smaller picture is a double jaw toggle in its normal state. This piece on my boat connects the lower turnbuckle bolt to the bow stem fitting. Several times over the years I did look hard at this piece. But only from the front. Where the break happened, on the back-side of the piece, both clean and rusted metal is evident. Sure indication of stress cracking and crevice corrosion.

My boat's wire rope and turnbuckles might have been new in 2005/2006 ... but it seems that other critical fittings were likely just assumed to be good without much inspection.

The only apparent damage to my boat is a slight bend in one of the furler extrusions and some scrapes along the cabin top into my just finished Interlux Perfection re-painting. (Maybe I should have spent just a fraction of the amount of time painting to instead inspecting my rig with crack detection dye!) After returning to my berth, I was able do a better job of securing the forestay in more-or-less its normal position using block and tackle led back to a primary winch to tension. I got the jib unfurled all the way out again. Upon which the sail did drop normally down the extrusion track and is now removed.

Guess my next step is to get my boat to a different rigger than I used before and have the entire rig taken apart and inspected per their protocol. Also demand that not only the standing rigging be checked but also every plate and connection and turnbuckle and bolt and pin, etc. (Ouch the $'s!) And today's new bend in the furler extrusion will need truing. Or likely time for a new furler anyway.

Returning home after this adventure, I added a strong gin tonic to my normal after-sail consumption of a couple of beers.


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Johnb

.
Jan 22, 2008
1,465
Hunter 37-cutter Richmond CA
Re: My Lower Forestay Fitting Ruptured Free Today In Heavy W

Duly noted. During a haul out 2 years ago I asked for an inspection of everything that holds the mast up but now I wonder if maybe I should tear into it myself. They declared the chain plates O.K. but never pulled them for inspection.

It is fortunate that you did not suffer much worse, maybe even injury.

Thanks for sharing, were you actually out on the 4th? We were too but stayed East of Angel Island.
 
May 26, 2004
168
- - Oriental, NC
Re: My Lower Forestay Fitting Ruptured Free Today In Heavy W

Nice boat handling.

On the fracture face in the curve of the "u" is there a part of the fracture that looks older than the rest. I am curious if it started from the concave inside of the u or the convex outside of the u.

Goodwinds
DaveM
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Hi John and Dave:

John:
Yes, the failure did occur on the 4th. We were just north of the Sausalito treatment plant. I think you had a better day on the bay than my wife and I did!

As I included in my opening post, I also did the due-diligence thing with my standing rigging. During June 2012, I paid $270.88 to a long-established respected rigging firm for 2.75 hours of expert time to go through all the standing rigging and other related structural items. Up the mast and around/in the hull. This was not a formal survey followed by an in-depth report; but I felt good about the expert review. And he did have with him his usual survey check-list. The fellow inspecting did spend a fair amount of time at the forestay stem area. He did comment (verbally and in the flagged items list that followed) that my cotter pins at the forestay base needed more "proper" bending. And he also observed that the forestay stem fitting bolts fastening into the hull's bow rake were not snug. I since snugged up which also solved the source of some water that was leaking into the forward of the v-berth. Here's a link to a post about the stem piece bolts which I posted last year along with a picture: http://forums.sbo.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=953799&highlight=stem). The forestay double jaw toggle that failed on the 4th was not flagged as an issue.

Dave:
I'll be at the boat later this weekend to remove the failed double jawed toggle. I'll inspect and give you more info.
 
May 26, 2004
168
- - Oriental, NC
Thanks. My career was metal component failure analysis. We can talk through this if you like.

Goodwinds
DaveM
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Dave:

Here is a copy of a post I just made on the Ask All forum. I can understand why the PO that re-rigged the boat decided to re-use the double-jaw toggle. Schaeffer's list price is over $100! Yes cheap compared to the ultimate damage the failure caused. But the rigger must also have agreed for it's re-use. I spoke to one rigging company today that was really surprised that this part failed. But maybe it was on my boat for 20 years for all I know.

rardi

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Here's a picture of the double-jaw forestay base toggle that failed on my boat July 4th.

Also a photo of my no longer straight extrusion assembly. I'll take another look at it next time at the boat. Maybe only three sections are bent. The drum and head of the furler both still rotate normally. Speaking with Profurl, seems that replacing the damaged extrusions should yield a successful long-term repair outcome.

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Mar 11, 2006
3
-Hunter -30 Travis marina
Re: My Lower Forestay Fitting Ruptured Free Today In Heavy W

I had a very similar experience with the lower t-joint of the turnbuckle letting go. Very thankful that the mast did not come down. Motoring to wind with no sails, wind recorded under the North tower of the bridge at 50 kts. We are based at Horseshoe cove. Hunter 30, 1978.
 
Jun 2, 2004
5,802
Hunter 37-cutter, '79 41 23' 30"N 82 33' 20"W--------Huron, OH
Re: My Lower Forestay Fitting Ruptured Free Today In Heavy W

Another good reason to keep our boats as cutters. Wonder how things might have been different without the mid-stay. Also wonder if the toggle had too much tension on it. Do you use a gauge on the backstay when tuning the rig? Or did the surveyor check? Pretty scary since when I replaced all my rigging in 2012 I used the original terminals.
 
Oct 27, 2011
154
Hunter 1980 Hunter 30 San Diego, Mission Bay
Re: My Lower Forestay Fitting Ruptured Free Today In Heavy W

Rardi -
Great job saving the mast and avoiding injury. And thanks for posting here. Any of us with roller furling probably have similar fittings. I'm certainly going to check mine.
Cheers,
Gary
 

Ed H

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Sep 15, 2010
244
Hunter 33_77-83 Regent Point Marina, Virginia
Re: My Lower Forestay Fitting Ruptured Free Today In Heavy W

Guess what I will be checking this weekend.
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Interesting how a nine-month ago post/thread got picked up on again!

Hi Ed: I really don't think that the toggle/head stay was overloaded with tension. Since I just tighten the turnbuckles firmly with standard hand tools. From what I have read, its almost impossible to get anywhere near standing rigging breaking strength with the 9" - 12" wrenches that I have.. And my back stay tensioner is just one of those contraptions that "squeeze" the split back stay together and on mine its just a 3:1 purchase. Again, unlikely that the tension was anywhere near the expected breaking limits of the rig.

Definitely, the failure was due to stress fracturing in an old and undersized fitting.

The only upside to the incident is that I now have a new furler since the one I had was damaged to the extent that repairing it wasn't that much less than purchasing a new one. The fact that I was able to do all the work myself eased the financial pain quite a bit.

Ed: The Cherubini 36 isn't a cutter rigged boat like yours. When the double jaw toggle failure cuased the fore stay to completely release, only the forward lower shrouds kept the mast up until I changed to a down wind course.

rardi
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,721
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Rardi,

I suspect your failure was caused partly due to the side loading imparted by the anchor / stem fitting. On the right side of the photo you can see what looks like where the fitting has been rubbing/pushing against the roller. This is not how the fitting is intended to be loaded. They are designed to be able to move side to side to accommodate some movement and the roller interfered with that from, the looks of it. Course beyond 10 years its anyone's guess..........


 
Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Dear Maine:

When I responded to Ed yesterday, I did fail to recollect your "side-to-side" comments that you originally observed (and posted) last July. But I certainly picked up on them back then ...

... And I factored them in when I installed the new (and beefier) double-jaw toggle replacement fitting. Using Dremmel tool cut-off wheels (which were small enough to fit into the area) I cut off part of the offending side plates adjacent to the toggle. Not all the way to the bottom plate, but low enough that the toggle is now free to articulate side-to-side better without hitting the side plates. The anchor roller part on the left is no longer used since a P.O. installed the much more robust one on right. I also ground the right roller's side plate a bit also to allow more room articulating space on that side. But really very little so that structural strength for anchoring wouldn't be compromised. Then after the cutting/grinding, I applied our favorite "Spotless-Stainless" to passivate the newly exposed and rough SS.

Again thanks for you input. And just wanted to let you know that all the good info you contribute does actually get picked up and actioned!
 
Feb 6, 1998
11,721
Canadian Sailcraft 36T Casco Bay, ME
Dear Maine:

When I responded to Ed yesterday, I did fail to recollect your "side-to-side" comments that you originally observed (and posted) last July. But I certainly picked up on them back then ...

... And I factored them in when I installed the new (and beefier) double-jaw toggle replacement fitting. Using Dremmel tool cut-off wheels (which were small enough to fit into the area) I cut off part of the offending side plates adjacent to the toggle. Not all the way to the bottom plate, but low enough that the toggle is now free to articulate side-to-side better without hitting the side plates. The anchor roller part on the left is no longer used since a P.O. installed the much more robust one on right. I also ground the right roller's side plate a bit also to allow more room articulating space on that side. But really very little so that structural strength for anchoring wouldn't be compromised. Then after the cutting/grinding, I applied our favorite "Spotless-Stainless" to passivate the newly exposed and rough SS.

Again thanks for you input. And just wanted to let you know that all the good info you contribute does actually get picked up and actioned!
You know, it felt a little déjà vu-ish when I responded. :doh: Glad my interpretation was still the same...;)
 
Jun 2, 2004
5,802
Hunter 37-cutter, '79 41 23' 30"N 82 33' 20"W--------Huron, OH
Re: My Lower Forestay Fitting Ruptured Free Today In Heavy W

Sorry Rardi, of course your H36 is not a cutter. I even looked at your pictures, did not see a mid-stay, and still mentioned it. Hell to get old.
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,123
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
Re: My Lower Forestay Fitting Ruptured Free Today In Heavy W

Why is there even a toggle on this fitting? Could you not just attach the turnbuckle's lower end to this chainplate? Or is this a factor of the furler?
 
Jun 21, 2007
2,117
Hunter Cherubini 36_80-82 Sausalito / San Francisco Bay
Why is there even a toggle on this fitting? Could you not just attach the turnbuckle's lower end to this chainplate? Or is this a factor of the furler?
Hi John:

I can't give the answer with the certainty of a marine rigging engineer (if there is such a thing). But I am thinking the double-jaw toggle fitting works much like the universal joint on a car's drive shaft. On the boat, the double-jaw toggle allows the stays to articulate in every direction that minimizes stress to the wire at the swage points, the fitting itself, and the attach point. After my failure, I did spend some time looking at the forestay connection method and fittings for many of the sailboats at my marina. All had double-jaw toggles interfacing the "t" piece at the bottom of the turnbuckle and the bow stem piece.

Just checking the pictures I have on my computer of my boat, also the lower ends of my split back stay and all shrouds utilize double jaw toggle. Must be somewhat important anyway.
 
May 31, 2007
777
Hunter 37 cutter Blind River
Re: My Lower Forestay Fitting Ruptured Free Today In Heavy W

I believe Nigel Calder, in his book on mechanical systems and maintenance, goes to great lengths to explain why toggles are necessary. I, too, questioned the necessity but he was pretty convincing. I am unable to quote him now as the cockroaches destroyed the binding of my copy of his book while I cruised the tropics.
 
Jun 5, 2010
1,123
Hunter 25 Burlington NJ
Rardi & Sandpiper--

I agree with the use of the toggles and specify them everywhere they should be. However, on my boat (and, according to the photo, I believe, the boat in question here), the tang or chainplate blade on the boat's bow is oriented athwartshipswise-- the clevis-pin hole faces forward, not to the side. So the fork of the stay's lower end is already articulated for side-to-side by virtue of the clevis pin; and as to fore-and-aft, the tang or chainplate, which is already a bent blade of metal, will just bend farther, into its desired shape, by the rig tension (as the one on my boat has done).

The most important orientation for articulation is that of side-to-side. If the forestay's tang or chainplate blade were oriented fore-and-aft, so that the clevis-pin eye faced sideways and not forwards, you would want articulation for the side-to-side movement, without which the rig would be incorrectedly stressed and, ultimately, would fail. (This is a very unusual case, because of how tangs or chainplates are attached to the boat itself. Having a fore-and-aft-oriented tang at the bow of the boat would probably mean a forestay set well back from the point of the bow.)

On the boat in the original post, the forestay already had side-to-side articulation compensated-for because of the orientation of the tang/chainplate blade from the start. The sailors' problem was that this articulation was impeded by the location of the anchor rollers. The example is a valuable one because it illustrates the potential damages of 'second-guessing' or risk-taking in the decision to override the proper conventions for rigging attachments and tensioning and so forth. It's particularly a boon for the rest of us because no one got hurt in the illustration of the lesson.