While sailing on a south texas bay in my 20ft daysailor a strong gust of wind hit me from the side turning my boat on its starboard side instantly,the mast went under water and dumped all four passengers into the water with the lifejackets still in the starboard side hold,We were all hanging on to the freeboard and forstay as the sailboat instantly filled with water thru her hatches, since the water was only about 8ft deep she remained a few moments on her side, i was trying to get the lifejackets when the cables broke and the mast folded,she rolled upside down and her stern sank.the bow remained a few inches above water and the waves were slaping over us as everyone hung on.i feared we would drift to the ship canal and she would sink in deeper water so i decieded to swim for help before there was nothing for anyone to hang onto,we were three miles from shore and the waves were hitting me in the face,it took me four hours to swim three miles with no lifejacket and with a slight current sideshore,after only 30 minutes of swimming i had regreted leaving the boat as i feared i would not make it,but i had already lost sight of them and there was no turning back, all i could do was worry for the others and that forced me on, i would rest a few moments by trying to float but that was imposible with waves slaping me and forcing me under,well the story has gone long enough and i made it to shore got another boat and rescued everyone and even towed the boat in and refloted her but she is tore up.why did this happen so instantly? was the swing keel to blame? or just me?..i love to sail so much but this has taken the wind from my sails!and i still want to sail!
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Bob Fliegel
May Your Good Luck Continue!
You are a very lucky fellow, Jerome. I don't think a lot of people would have made that swim. I will hope that your good fortune never changes and that you always remain as lucky. If I may impose on you with two questions first, words like "positive flotation" and "self righting" come to mind and I am wondering what happened. I have a Hunter 260 and I am wondering how vunerable my boat is to sinking when capsized. Second, in retrospect, what should have or could have been done to minimize this tragedy. At first, I can think of the life vests and keeping them on deck. Second, I wonder if it might be a good idea to keep the hatch boards in place to keep the cabin from filling with water so fast. I would appreciate any thoughts of suggestions you might have. Sincerely, Bob Fliegel
You are a very lucky fellow, Jerome. I don't think a lot of people would have made that swim. I will hope that your good fortune never changes and that you always remain as lucky. If I may impose on you with two questions first, words like "positive flotation" and "self righting" come to mind and I am wondering what happened. I have a Hunter 260 and I am wondering how vunerable my boat is to sinking when capsized. Second, in retrospect, what should have or could have been done to minimize this tragedy. At first, I can think of the life vests and keeping them on deck. Second, I wonder if it might be a good idea to keep the hatch boards in place to keep the cabin from filling with water so fast. I would appreciate any thoughts of suggestions you might have. Sincerely, Bob Fliegel
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Richard Wallace
Was The Keel Locked Down?
If the keel has a way to lock it down, you should always do that. What happens if you don't is that the boat goes over on it's side, then the keep folds up against the bottom of the boat, and the boat turns turtle. If you can keep the cabin fairly water tight and the keel stays down, you have a good chance of the boat righting itself.
If the keel has a way to lock it down, you should always do that. What happens if you don't is that the boat goes over on it's side, then the keep folds up against the bottom of the boat, and the boat turns turtle. If you can keep the cabin fairly water tight and the keel stays down, you have a good chance of the boat righting itself.
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Jim A
Should have had your
hatch boards dogged! The keel should have been pinned in too! I have a San Jaun 21 and consider it one of the best boats ever built. In high wind I always pinned the keel in and dogged the hatches. I always have feared what happen to you. A lession to us all: dog the hatches in rough weather! Jim
hatch boards dogged! The keel should have been pinned in too! I have a San Jaun 21 and consider it one of the best boats ever built. In high wind I always pinned the keel in and dogged the hatches. I always have feared what happen to you. A lession to us all: dog the hatches in rough weather! Jim
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Clyde
Sounds like a "Knock Down"
With the swing keel fully down, it prevented the sailboat from slipping and therefore causing your sailboat to be "Knock Down" when the force of the wind gust overcame the counter acting force of the swing keel. You had too much sail up for the existing wind conditions, you didn't mention if you had "Reefed" your main. A "Beam Reach" or "Close Reach" with gusting wind conditions is asking for a "Knock Down" if you aren't "Reefed" and prepared to instantly dump your sail or head-up if a gust should hit. The sailboat did as it was designed, used its keel to counteract the force of the wind on the sail up to the time it was "Knocked Down" when it could not overcome the force of the wind. Being three miles from shore and not wearing your PFDs under those conditions in a daysailor is stupid. Learn from your mistakes, it will keep you from repeating them. All you lost was your sailboat instead of your passengers, it was a learning experience you'll never forget. Fair Winds. Clyde
With the swing keel fully down, it prevented the sailboat from slipping and therefore causing your sailboat to be "Knock Down" when the force of the wind gust overcame the counter acting force of the swing keel. You had too much sail up for the existing wind conditions, you didn't mention if you had "Reefed" your main. A "Beam Reach" or "Close Reach" with gusting wind conditions is asking for a "Knock Down" if you aren't "Reefed" and prepared to instantly dump your sail or head-up if a gust should hit. The sailboat did as it was designed, used its keel to counteract the force of the wind on the sail up to the time it was "Knocked Down" when it could not overcome the force of the wind. Being three miles from shore and not wearing your PFDs under those conditions in a daysailor is stupid. Learn from your mistakes, it will keep you from repeating them. All you lost was your sailboat instead of your passengers, it was a learning experience you'll never forget. Fair Winds. Clyde
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
You don't seem to know how lucky you were!
First rule of survival in a capsize: stay with the boat! Leaving it has cost far more people their lives than staying with it. The boat provides something to hang onto...which is a lot less exhausting than treading water. It's also a much more visible "target" than one lone swimmer. I suspect that any Coast Guardsman will you that the odds are at LEAST 100-1 against your still being alive to tell this story.
First rule of survival in a capsize: stay with the boat! Leaving it has cost far more people their lives than staying with it. The boat provides something to hang onto...which is a lot less exhausting than treading water. It's also a much more visible "target" than one lone swimmer. I suspect that any Coast Guardsman will you that the odds are at LEAST 100-1 against your still being alive to tell this story.
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David Guthridge
Sail locker hatch covers.
I have a Pearson 26. My cousin had one too and based on how many of them were made I know some of you have one also. He had a knock down on Chesapeake Bay off Thomas Point ten years ago. He had not secured the cockpit sail locker hatches and when the boat went over the hatch opened and the boat instantly filled with hundreds of gallons of water almost taking the boat down. Fortunately the weather subsided very quickly, the boat righted, and they pumped like mad to get the water out. He had over a foot of water on the cabin and the boat was only over a matter of seconds. These things can happen very quickly. The lesson learned is to always keep the sail lockers locked. Had he done this virtually no water would have entered the boat. All you other boats out there with sail lockers (almost all boats) remember this!!! David.
I have a Pearson 26. My cousin had one too and based on how many of them were made I know some of you have one also. He had a knock down on Chesapeake Bay off Thomas Point ten years ago. He had not secured the cockpit sail locker hatches and when the boat went over the hatch opened and the boat instantly filled with hundreds of gallons of water almost taking the boat down. Fortunately the weather subsided very quickly, the boat righted, and they pumped like mad to get the water out. He had over a foot of water on the cabin and the boat was only over a matter of seconds. These things can happen very quickly. The lesson learned is to always keep the sail lockers locked. Had he done this virtually no water would have entered the boat. All you other boats out there with sail lockers (almost all boats) remember this!!! David.
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Dave
3 mile swim
You are very lucky to be alive. NEVER LEAVE THE BOAT!!! t gives you something to hoist yourself up out of the water to reduce hypothermia! You can get hypothermia even in warm water, if the water is colder than your body temperature you will have heat loss from your body. You can die from hypothermia in 85 degree water, it will just take longer before you die than in the arctic. I used to swim competitively in my younger days and I would not want to tackle this swim out of top condition and without flotation. Every course there is tells you to STAY WITH THE BOAT! How long did the swim take you? I'd guess about 4 to 5 hours. dave
You are very lucky to be alive. NEVER LEAVE THE BOAT!!! t gives you something to hoist yourself up out of the water to reduce hypothermia! You can get hypothermia even in warm water, if the water is colder than your body temperature you will have heat loss from your body. You can die from hypothermia in 85 degree water, it will just take longer before you die than in the arctic. I used to swim competitively in my younger days and I would not want to tackle this swim out of top condition and without flotation. Every course there is tells you to STAY WITH THE BOAT! How long did the swim take you? I'd guess about 4 to 5 hours. dave
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Don Bodemann
For sharing Jerome & critics
Jerome, Thanks for sharing. I'm sorry some of our fellow sailors have felt compelled to scold you with some rather self-righteous sounding posts. When in a crisis, sometimes even the most well trained experienced sailor will not do things "by the book". Sometimes conditions dictate that "the book" be thrown overboard. As a pilot, my training also maintains the buck stops with the captain. Should you have stayed with the boat? Maybe, but maybe, if you had, lives might have been lost. No two situations are identical. You are the best person to decide, "what you should have done", as you have. I applaud your courage and honesty for sharing. I wonder if all your critics would be so forthright?
Jerome, Thanks for sharing. I'm sorry some of our fellow sailors have felt compelled to scold you with some rather self-righteous sounding posts. When in a crisis, sometimes even the most well trained experienced sailor will not do things "by the book". Sometimes conditions dictate that "the book" be thrown overboard. As a pilot, my training also maintains the buck stops with the captain. Should you have stayed with the boat? Maybe, but maybe, if you had, lives might have been lost. No two situations are identical. You are the best person to decide, "what you should have done", as you have. I applaud your courage and honesty for sharing. I wonder if all your critics would be so forthright?
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RonD
The Sea Gods have smiled upon you
... this time. Sure, as others have pointed out there were some things you could have/should have done differently. Hindsight is an exact science. "Murphy" rules! All of us have been, or will be, in a stress situation and face making those types of decisions. What is important, and commendable in your case, is that you are sharing the experience and soliciting the knowledge & skills of others to learn from it (and us from you). BTW: this story just reinforces my standing rule on the "Lady Jane" -- everyone wears an inflatable PFD while under way, no exceptions. --Ron C320, "Lady Jane"
... this time. Sure, as others have pointed out there were some things you could have/should have done differently. Hindsight is an exact science. "Murphy" rules! All of us have been, or will be, in a stress situation and face making those types of decisions. What is important, and commendable in your case, is that you are sharing the experience and soliciting the knowledge & skills of others to learn from it (and us from you). BTW: this story just reinforces my standing rule on the "Lady Jane" -- everyone wears an inflatable PFD while under way, no exceptions. --Ron C320, "Lady Jane"
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David
Jerome
I second Don's remarks! Can't believe some of the comments on the previous posts! (stupid ? ) You have a lot of courage to do what you did and courage to share this. Thanks!
I second Don's remarks! Can't believe some of the comments on the previous posts! (stupid ? ) You have a lot of courage to do what you did and courage to share this. Thanks!
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Justin - O'day Owners' Web
Sailing
Jerome - I'm sorry to hear your boat sustained such a loss but glad to hear you made it through. An experienced captain once told me after I ran his very expensive yacht into the fuel dock and dock house at his marina that if you're not swimming you docked ok. In your case, if you walked away you did ok. The sea can reach up and swat any of us at any time. The risk can be minimized but its always there. You have some lessons to learn from this experience, and if the rest of us as smart so do we. Don't let the situation or the response discourage you. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
Jerome - I'm sorry to hear your boat sustained such a loss but glad to hear you made it through. An experienced captain once told me after I ran his very expensive yacht into the fuel dock and dock house at his marina that if you're not swimming you docked ok. In your case, if you walked away you did ok. The sea can reach up and swat any of us at any time. The risk can be minimized but its always there. You have some lessons to learn from this experience, and if the rest of us as smart so do we. Don't let the situation or the response discourage you. Justin - O'day Owners' Web
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Tom
One other thing I think most day sailors don't
have ready by there side is a portable Waterproof VHF. If I was in any kind of boat that could potentially turn-turtle then I would have it right out there in the cockpit with me. I would also have it in an inflatable case or foam floation things on the handle that would make sure it would float. I think you might have gotten help much sooner and also just in case you might have other problems (like motor, etc)
have ready by there side is a portable Waterproof VHF. If I was in any kind of boat that could potentially turn-turtle then I would have it right out there in the cockpit with me. I would also have it in an inflatable case or foam floation things on the handle that would make sure it would float. I think you might have gotten help much sooner and also just in case you might have other problems (like motor, etc)
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skeptic
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Clyde
David and Don
In posting on "Ask All Sailors" forum he as asking other sailor's opinion on what went wrong, it wasn't a "Sea Story" for the reading enjoyment of others. No one is questioning his courage in swimming 3 miles to get help. I assume he wanted other sailor's opinion on what went wrong, was it a keel failure, was it a sailing error due to the existing sea conditions; what went wrong. As a pilot, I was use to having my flying critiqued and analyzed by my flight instructors in the debriefing after the flight during flight training. The major items covered were safety procedures and what went wrong and what I screwed up on and what I had missed doing during the flight. Debriefings were held to learned from your mistakes and hopefully not make them again. During the "Fog" of an emergency a lot of times a pilot's emergency training is all he has left when he is bombarded with conflicting emergency indications as he tries to keep his plane flying. The "Book" was based on the lessons learn from the deaths of others. Throwing the "Book" away is the last resort when you have nothing else to lose. Fair Winds. Clyde
In posting on "Ask All Sailors" forum he as asking other sailor's opinion on what went wrong, it wasn't a "Sea Story" for the reading enjoyment of others. No one is questioning his courage in swimming 3 miles to get help. I assume he wanted other sailor's opinion on what went wrong, was it a keel failure, was it a sailing error due to the existing sea conditions; what went wrong. As a pilot, I was use to having my flying critiqued and analyzed by my flight instructors in the debriefing after the flight during flight training. The major items covered were safety procedures and what went wrong and what I screwed up on and what I had missed doing during the flight. Debriefings were held to learned from your mistakes and hopefully not make them again. During the "Fog" of an emergency a lot of times a pilot's emergency training is all he has left when he is bombarded with conflicting emergency indications as he tries to keep his plane flying. The "Book" was based on the lessons learn from the deaths of others. Throwing the "Book" away is the last resort when you have nothing else to lose. Fair Winds. Clyde
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Don Bodemann
Not helpful
I'm sure Jerome doesn't need someone to tell him that it was stupid not to have life jackets on. The post was for helpful suggestions, not condescending comments. Peggy, I'm sure he also knows better than all of us just how lucky he was. Clyde indicated that the keel down caused the knock down? What, by providing an opposing force which kept the boat from skidding? I doubt it. Board up or down, with too much canvas, he was going over. What about the righting force (mass) of a swing keel? Jerome used the term swing Keel that indicates (to me at least) more than a centerboard. Should it have been locked down? Debate-able, as a former swing keel sailor, I have debated this from both sides. Keep in mind, some boats, like the Catalina 25 don’t come with a lock. The Catalina 22 does however. I’ll give you one (of several) reasons not to lock; with the board locked, hitting a submerged object could rip the bottom of the boat open where if the keel could swing, it could swing/slide up over the object. I’ve heard some helpful comments in all this, 1. Reduce canvas “REEF” sooner. Jerome, were your sails reefed? 2. Be ready to dump the main in gusty conditions (don’t cleat it, hang on to the sheet). 3. Carry a portable, waterproof radio 4. PFDs…nuf said PS: I never suggested tossing "the book". My point was the Captain makes the call. I would tell my students what the book says and why, but to use their brains.
I'm sure Jerome doesn't need someone to tell him that it was stupid not to have life jackets on. The post was for helpful suggestions, not condescending comments. Peggy, I'm sure he also knows better than all of us just how lucky he was. Clyde indicated that the keel down caused the knock down? What, by providing an opposing force which kept the boat from skidding? I doubt it. Board up or down, with too much canvas, he was going over. What about the righting force (mass) of a swing keel? Jerome used the term swing Keel that indicates (to me at least) more than a centerboard. Should it have been locked down? Debate-able, as a former swing keel sailor, I have debated this from both sides. Keep in mind, some boats, like the Catalina 25 don’t come with a lock. The Catalina 22 does however. I’ll give you one (of several) reasons not to lock; with the board locked, hitting a submerged object could rip the bottom of the boat open where if the keel could swing, it could swing/slide up over the object. I’ve heard some helpful comments in all this, 1. Reduce canvas “REEF” sooner. Jerome, were your sails reefed? 2. Be ready to dump the main in gusty conditions (don’t cleat it, hang on to the sheet). 3. Carry a portable, waterproof radio 4. PFDs…nuf said PS: I never suggested tossing "the book". My point was the Captain makes the call. I would tell my students what the book says and why, but to use their brains.
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Clyde
Don
I didn't say the swing keel was to blame. If you read his post, he asked if the swing keel was to blame for his knock down. Since he was sailing when a gust of wind knocked him down, his swing keel had to have been deployed. If his swing keel had been up or halfway deployed, he should have felt the sailboat slipping before the wind gust hit him. The problem was too much sail for the existing wind conditions and not preparing for a wind gust on a broad reach or close reach while sailing under those conditions. If you hit a submerge object with the swing keel locked it would damage the keel. Locking your weighed swing keel will only help keep it from crashing into the trunk if you turn turtle. Once the sailboat was on it's side and filling up with water, the weight of the swing keel wouldn't have mattered if he had his hatches open. All of your helpful hints have been provided by others in previous posts. I'm sorry if in my post you thought that I said that you were wanting to throw out the "Book". The Pilot in Command (PIC) is always responsible for his decisions and actions. A captain is always held responsible for the safety of this crew and passengers by his actions. Fair Winds Clyde
I didn't say the swing keel was to blame. If you read his post, he asked if the swing keel was to blame for his knock down. Since he was sailing when a gust of wind knocked him down, his swing keel had to have been deployed. If his swing keel had been up or halfway deployed, he should have felt the sailboat slipping before the wind gust hit him. The problem was too much sail for the existing wind conditions and not preparing for a wind gust on a broad reach or close reach while sailing under those conditions. If you hit a submerge object with the swing keel locked it would damage the keel. Locking your weighed swing keel will only help keep it from crashing into the trunk if you turn turtle. Once the sailboat was on it's side and filling up with water, the weight of the swing keel wouldn't have mattered if he had his hatches open. All of your helpful hints have been provided by others in previous posts. I'm sorry if in my post you thought that I said that you were wanting to throw out the "Book". The Pilot in Command (PIC) is always responsible for his decisions and actions. A captain is always held responsible for the safety of this crew and passengers by his actions. Fair Winds Clyde
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Peggie Hall/Head Mistress
Not helpful???
Among a list of "rules of sea" are two very important ones: 1. You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck. 2. Learn from the mistakes of others. You won’t live long enough to make all of them yourself. A great many newcomers to sailing visit this site. Discussing the mistakes that someone made so that they can learn from it could save one of their lives.
Among a list of "rules of sea" are two very important ones: 1. You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck. 2. Learn from the mistakes of others. You won’t live long enough to make all of them yourself. A great many newcomers to sailing visit this site. Discussing the mistakes that someone made so that they can learn from it could save one of their lives.
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Jack Rhines
Hi Jerome, please name type boat!
Hi all, Please name type boat,and keel type! did this story make the NEWS! Thank you, Jack Sailing San Diego Catalina 22 Fin Keel #9131
Hi all, Please name type boat,and keel type! did this story make the NEWS! Thank you, Jack Sailing San Diego Catalina 22 Fin Keel #9131
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Don Bodemann
Clyde
Fair enough. I was not claiming to add, just restate the POSITIVE statements that had been posted previously. As a fromer swing keel sailor, I can tell you that if I hit something with the keel of any of my old Catalina's (owned a few) The 600lb cast iron keel, would be the last thing to be damaged! The junky lock bolt along with it's flimsy steel band would be ripped out of the keel trunk. causing a massive and not easily plugged hole...which is of course below the water line. This happens in the normal day to day use of the typical old C-22 as I've seen many including mine broken free from the trunk. As a matter of fact when I first sailed my first C-22 I discovered this nasty leak in the middle of Barnegat Bay. Clyde, we've both been around the block a time or two. I respect your opinion and felt that you and some others came on a little harshly towards our fellow inexperienced sailor. Fair winds to you as well.
Fair enough. I was not claiming to add, just restate the POSITIVE statements that had been posted previously. As a fromer swing keel sailor, I can tell you that if I hit something with the keel of any of my old Catalina's (owned a few) The 600lb cast iron keel, would be the last thing to be damaged! The junky lock bolt along with it's flimsy steel band would be ripped out of the keel trunk. causing a massive and not easily plugged hole...which is of course below the water line. This happens in the normal day to day use of the typical old C-22 as I've seen many including mine broken free from the trunk. As a matter of fact when I first sailed my first C-22 I discovered this nasty leak in the middle of Barnegat Bay. Clyde, we've both been around the block a time or two. I respect your opinion and felt that you and some others came on a little harshly towards our fellow inexperienced sailor. Fair winds to you as well.
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