Motor drag or lee helm?

Nov 8, 2014
151
MacGregor 26S Chateauguay
Has anyone ever experienced motor drag (26S) that keeps wanting to turn the boat to port whenever running close hauled or on a close reach. Originally I assumed it was too much lee helm because somehow whenever it happened we were on a starboard tack, I furled the jib but things didn't change... Then I realized that it wasn't lee helm but just a tendency to pull to port so I came to the conclusion that I was either affected by current or the motor was probably causing some serious drag. I lifted it and the problem seemed to clear up, tomorrow I'll do some runs with calmer winds and verify my hypothesis. I have a brand new 9.9 Mercury 4 stroke, as such it is probably heavier than the 2 stroke that it was originally sold with. Any experience with this issue on a 26C?
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
I never sail with the outboard in the water.. its one of the advantages to having an outboard on a sailboat.. no prop or anything else that causes drag. If you have a stern rail, its fairly easy to add some sort of lifting mechanism that makes both raising and lowering way easier.

edit.. found a picture of what I did with 2:1 leverage - copied the idea here from Sumner or someone else.. cant remember. There is another pulley hidden by the outboard that is attached to a metal tab back there.. had to drill a hole in the outboard for this but its been trouble free for years. There is also a line to the reverse lockout release also with a T handle so I dont have to reach way down there to release the outboard for dropping it back down.

pull_up1.jpg
 
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Feb 8, 2017
107
MacGregor MacGregor 25 Middle River
Like Walt, I never sail with the ob in the water on my 25. The thing sails like a tub until the motor comes up, which is the very last thing I do after the sails are up and I'm ready to roll. The reason I leave it down until the end is, especially since I usually singlehand, it gives me another option should something go wrong. As they say, "Try it! You'll like it!"
 
Nov 8, 2014
151
MacGregor 26S Chateauguay
Thanks Walt and Ron, always good to hear from experienced users. Sometimes we sail with the motor down more to assure ourselves that we can get out of a jam quickly. Now that we are getting much better at sailing, we really don't need it especially when it only takes a minute to bring it down and start it.
Walt I like your modification, thanks for the tip

Thanks again
Bill
 
Nov 8, 2014
151
MacGregor 26S Chateauguay
Followed your advice and all is much better. Now the motor comes out of the water unless we are close to obstacles or a mighty big laker is bearing down on us... Basically we had a couple of issues:
1. Motor drag, really bad especially in low winds, this created a tendency to turn to port
2. Little or no helm caused by one of the crazy currents of lake Saint Louis on the St. Lawrence seaway. These are caused by water releases at one of the big dams upstream or even the cycling of the huge Beauharnois locks. Basically we were being pushed downstream sideways. These flows are relatively narrow and tend to follow the southern shore. This explains why boats beating upwind only a couple of hundred feet away from us where the lake is considerably deeper had no trouble.
3. Incorrectly routed headsail sheets. Originally I routed them between the shrouds with mixed results. I now route them outside of the shrouds with significant improvement in handling. Telltales fly straight. I don't know how improving headsail performance actually decreases lee helm but, my theory is that the Genova (110%) actually improves the efficiency of the mainsail.

There may be other issues but so far I'm happy with the performance. Now my challenge will be to improve speed while close hauled... With a 7kts wind I don't seem to go over 2.5 kts, more often 1.5... Any suggestions?

Thanks
Bill
 

Ward H

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Nov 7, 2011
3,645
Catalina 30 Mk II Barnegat, NJ
In case all the others are out sailing today, it sounds like you might be pinching to tight to the wind. Try heading off a bit to a close reach, see how much speed you can get there, then try pointing higher while maintaining speed.
Starting out I was always over trimming my sails. Now I set them so if I head up just a bit they luff until I go back down just a bit.

 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
On the 26S, typically jib sail sizes 100 to up to about 110 are sheeted from inside the shrouds. 150 would run the sheets outside. 135 is somewhere in between and because of the shroud placement.. would be a compromise either way.

I have a 110 and run the jib sheets inside the shrouds. You need to do this for best upwind performance and it works fine on a reach. Going downwind with a whisker pole, the sheets are hard against the lifelines but I cant see anything wrong with this.
 
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Nov 8, 2014
151
MacGregor 26S Chateauguay
On the 26S, typically jib sail sizes 100 to up to about 110 are sheeted from inside the shrouds. 150 would run the sheets outside. 135 is somewhere in between and because of the shroud placement.. would be a compromise either way.

I have a 110 and run the jib sheets inside the shrouds. You need to do this for best upwind performance and it works fine on a reach. Going downwind with a whisker pole, the sheets are hard against the lifelines but I cant see anything wrong with this.
Hi Walt, I routed the jib sheets inside the shrouds and they work like a charm, upwind performance improved considerably and telltales look great in all points of sail. I had to lift the headsail enough to clear the lifelines and this seems to have further improved things. Thank you very much for the advice. One more question if you don't mind... Earlier in the day I suddenly realized that my top lift was holding up the boom instead of the leach. In spite of this the sail worked perfectly in 7kts wind and the telltales were flying very well. After releasing the tension and allowing the leech to take up the boom I seem to have lost some performance though it was hard to tell because the conditions had changed. Any thoughts? Should I play with the imbedded leech line on the sail itself?
Thanks
Bill
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Just my .02.. could be wrong..

A lot of boats have a jib that almost contacts the deck. This prevents air moving between the pressures that create lift at the bottom of the sail. Called a "deck sweeper" or "closing the gap", it does make a difference. But it also completely blocks your view.. I just dont like sailing not being able to see where Im going so I bought a sail cut so I could see under it. Doing this doesnt seem to have hurt anything in heavier air but I possibly give up some speed in light winds. Point being.. raising your jib may not have been the best thing for performance but on the other hand, seeing where you are going might be more important to you.

Curious if you have a vang and are using it? For a long time I thought a traveler got rid of most of the benefits of the vang but Ive been been playing with the vang in the last while.. What you saw.. hopefully someone else has an idea but it sort of sounded like what might happen when you adjust the vang???

The two pictures below show a change I made about a year ago (from seeing a picture Jackdaw posted.. ). Nice being able to adjust the vang from the cockpit but I can only adjust it from one side.

FYI, I have switched the location of the jib and vang controls from what is in the picture (lines no longer cross) since I never need winch with the 110.


vang1.JPG
vang2.JPG
 
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walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
One other thing about raising or lowering the jib. If you draw a line through the jib sheet, a starting point is that it should about dissect the sail luft in half. So the location of where the jib pulls from has to move if the sail moves up or down. Since its about a 45 degree angle, its about a 1 to 1 relation. Move the sail up 1 foot, move the jib "pull point" back one foot. Since you just moved the jib, maybe some chance it improved things?
 

Joe

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Jun 1, 2004
7,999
Catalina 27 Mission Bay, San Diego
One other thing about raising or lowering the jib. If you draw a line through the jib sheet, a starting point is that it should about dissect the sail luft in half. So the location of where the jib pulls from has to move if the sail moves up or down. Since its about a 45 degree angle, its about a 1 to 1 relation. Move the sail up 1 foot, move the jib "pull point" back one foot. Since you just moved the jib, maybe some chance it improved things?
Walt, do you use that winch for your jib sheet? Or is there another one further back?
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
Walt, do you use that winch for your jib sheet?
Not with the 110 and Im usually single handed 90% of the time. If my wife sits in the cockpit, she has to run the jib sheets (or she is in the way) so I put a mark on the jib sheet lines. She just sets the jib sheet so that the mark just exits the cleat and she does this before it really loads up. The wide angle cleats allow me to adjust the cleat somewhat when single handed from the windward side of the boat where I would normally be sitting.

You do need the winch for a Genoa.. but since I have a roller furler, never change sail size. The winch on the starboard side does get used for the jib halyard.
 
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walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
One more thing about your topping lift experience. This is something more for very light wind but a boom kicker along with a vang allows the vang control to duplicate what you had with your topping lift being too tight while sailing. Loosen the vang and the boom kicker pushes the boom up. Tighten the vang and and it pulls the boom back down.

FYI, my vang has a high load quick connect on it (on the end that attaches to the boom bail) so that its easy to raise the pop top.. I have been leaving the boom kicker off.. just because of the hassle of taking it on and off to raise the pop top. Im also just not a fan of sailing in very light wind unless Im by myself and its completely relaxed (not racing). And for that completely relaxed sailing.. I just dont care about the incremental improvement the boom kicker gives. If Im racing in light wind (my very least favorite thing about sailing), I would have the boom kicker on.
bk1.jpg
 
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Nov 8, 2014
151
MacGregor 26S Chateauguay
Walt, no I don't have a vang but for the moment my traveler seems to suffice and as a beginner I would rather avoid having to handle another control, I'm still trying to figure out what to do with what I have :) concerning my jib, when my sail vendor took the measurements (yes he makes house calls at no extra cost) he took into account the CDI furler and the sheet blocks position, somehow, with the jib raised 8" over the furler, the geometry turns out to be perfect. Your picture also cleared up a mystery for me. After rerouting the sheets behind the shrouds I was torn between passing them under and outside the lifelines or keeping them inside the lifelines, your picture answered my question: inside the lifelines!
Thanks Walt
 
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walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
my .02.. If I could have only one main sail control beside the sheet, it would be the traveler.

But you will have something fun to look forward to in the future eventually adding a vang and maybe an adjustable back stay both of which I think make a worthwhile difference.
 

walt

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Jun 1, 2007
3,511
Macgregor 26S Hobie TI Ridgway Colorado
inside the lifelines
Yes..

One more thing that might be helpful.. An exercise I did several years ago that I thought was useful was to take pictures of the jib sail while the boat was in the slip. I moved the jib car back and forth and took a picture at each spot. I then looked at the pictures to find out what jib car placement gave me the 50% luff bisect. This is just a starting point for adjusting the jib car placement but by doing this, I found that I had been using a setup for several years that was WAY OFF of what it should have been.
jib_sheet_p3r.jpg