mast raising

stickinthemud57 · Feb 3, 2022

I envy you. I would love to share such an experience with my son, but alas, his interests and mine are not the same.

Mounting the baby stays at the deck will not work any better than what you are doing.

When puzzling out such things, I often find it useful to construct models. See the attached photos.

The first two photos are a simulation of what would happen if the stays were connected at the the deck level - represented by the USPS priority mail box, the arrow indicating the bow of the boat. The drumstick is the mast, the yellow twine the stays.

In the first photo, with the mast laying flat, the stays are slack. Not ideal.

In the second photo, raising the mast even slightly puts the stays under tension, stopping the upward movement of the mast. Not workable.

The third and fourth photos simulate what would happen with the stays mounted to the same flat surface as the mast.

In the third photo, with the mast flat, the stays are taut. Ideal.

In the fourth photo, with the mast almost fully raised, they remain taut. Ideal. I did not raise the mast all the way so you could see the stays are taut.

The closer you can keep the mounting points perpendicular to and on the same level as the pivot point, more consistent the tension on the stays will be as you travel from horizontal to vertical and back.

Two things. Taut is good, tight, not so much. Given the leverage the mast is generating, it would be easy to damage the coach roof if you tried to muscle the mast past the point where they were taut. Loose is not good, because then the mast leans, pulling harder on a single attachment point than would be desirable. Keeping the mast as perpendicular to the top of the coach roof to starboard and port as possible is what you want to achieve.

The aforementioned fact that the pivot point moves down as you raise the mast will complicate this, which is why it might make more sense to use rope than cable. Beware of using rope that stretches too much, thus my recommendation to use Dyneema.

I can see your desire to preserve real estate on the coach roof. IF the halyard pulleys are securely fastened, it might be feasible to put a strap between the two forward-most screws at the top plate on each side. CAVEAT - SEEK THE ADVICE OF AN EXPERIENCED RIGGER. THIS MAY BE A VERY BAD IDEA. I DON'T HAVE ENOUGH KNOWLEDGE ABOUT THE OVERALL CONSTRUCTION OF THIS BOAT TO SUGGEST SUCH A SOLUTION WITHOUT STRONG RESERVATIONS AND WARNINGS!!!!

Hopefully this is the slow season for Todd and he will be able to help you sort things out. They are often inundated just keeping up with orders. Best of luck, and let me know if I can be of further help.

topcat0399 · Feb 3, 2022

I have a Venture V224, essentially same boats as your only with a poptop.
I have fought all of the battles you are now in. Some possible solutions for ya...

Using onboard tackle rocks.

For my baby-stays I use the boom vang tackle on one side and the mainsheet tackle on the other.
I tried lots of ways to do this including ratchet straps. Using the tackle is the BEST by far.
Gives you full adjustable control of that mast with complete stability.
I almost always put my mast up on the water now (parking lots have their issues....)

Make a harness. See attached pics. Puts the pivot points in the right place, and if it changes, so can the harness.
No drilling required.

There is more than one type of gin pole; mainly MOVING and STATIONARY.
I currently use a moving gin pole. My first gin pole was just a 2"x6"x6ft board with a notch cut in the end and a winch
bolted to the other. Worked fine, ugly, hard to handle.

As far as the back-stay on a fractional rig Venture. Just attach it anywhere centralized. Its good for nothing other than the pigtail hanging from it that you can attach to the boom when not sailing. Other than that, without appropriate hardware you could actually just take the the thing off completely. It just flops around loose anyway - I used to call mine the Boston Strangler. I have added back-stay tackle so mine is actually usable for mast bend, but I have also changed to mid-boom mainsheet so...

Ps: Most of the stock deck hardware on these old boats is junk for serious sailing work. I have replaced it all with quality
hardware and added quite a bit more (mainly cleats).

Have fun!

stickinthemud57 · Feb 3, 2022

Topcat's solution proves the old adage about skinning cats. No offense there, Top.

To Macbeane's previous post, strength issues aside, the fairleads are waaayyy too far back from the pivot point, but I think you are probably starting to see the physics involved.

Looking more closely at your mast step, I think what will happen is the pivot point will start low, peak when the mast is at a 45-degree angle, and become lower again as the mast approaches its "full upright and vertical position". A way to minimize this would be to round off the lower/aft edge of the mast so it doesn't raise the mast too much.

I think trying to employ turnbuckles to adjust tension on the baby stays will be a tremendous PITA, and hopefully not necessary. Keep in mind that as the mast approaches vertical, two things happen - the tension on the gin pole will switch from pushing down toward the pivot point to pulling up away from the pivot point, at which time the issue with it being pushed to one side or another will go away. Also, the main stays will come into play, taking the load off of the baby stays.

Since real estate is not the issue, if I were doing it I would mount the stay bases outboard of the halyard pulleys. The broader base of support would minimize the differences in tension, and the stays would be out of the path of the halyards. Some people just leave the baby stays in place when sailing for convenience, but I worry more about the trip hazard than the convenience.

Something I just noticed from your photos is that the gin pole does not appear to have a positive attachment point. This should be remedied, IMO. Unless the gin pole is longer than the distance from the mast to the forward pulling point, there will come a point at which the gin pole will fall out of position, possibly damaging the deck or smacking a crew member. There does not appear to be enough room on the tabernacle (mast step bracket) to do this, so the only thing I can come up with is attaching bent straps on either side of the base of the gin pole creating a Y-shaped yoke that would attach to the mast with a bolt passing through a hole drilled high enough to stay clear of the tabernacle. This would also mean the rope being used to raise the mast would have to be attached so that it did not fall free from the upper end of the gin pole, which could be done any number of ways. I suppose you could have a crew member catch the pole when it was no longer in play, but that risks putting a crew member in harm's way and makes it a 2-person task by necessity.

As for your son's future shenanigans, I say taking a woman out sailing is a great litmus test. There is a lot of give-and-take with sailing, and a woman's ability and willingness to deal with that will reveal a lot about her character. Tell him I said so.

topcat0399 · Feb 3, 2022

stickinthemud57 said:
Topcat's solution proves the old adage about skinning cats. No offense there, Top.

To Macbeane's previous post, strength issues aside, the fairleads are waaayyy too far back from the pivot point, but I think you are probably starting to see the physics involved.

Looking more closely at your mast step, I think what will happen is the pivot point will start low, peak when the mast is at a 45-degree angle, and become lower again as the mast approaches its "full upright and vertical position". A way to minimize this would be to round off the lower/aft edge of the mast so it doesn't raise the mast too much.

I think trying to employ turnbuckles to adjust tension on the baby stays will be a tremendous PITA, and hopefully not necessary. Keep in mind that as the mast approaches vertical, two things happen - the tension on the gin pole will switch from pushing down toward the pivot point to pulling up away from the pivot point, at which time the issue with it being pushed to one side or another will go away. Also, the main stays will come into play, taking the load off of the baby stays.

Since real estate is not the issue, if I were doing it I would mount the stay bases outboard of the halyard pulleys. The broader base of support would minimize the differences in tension, and the stays would be out of the path of the halyards. Some people just leave the baby stays in place when sailing for convenience, but I worry more about the trip hazard than the convenience.

Something I just noticed from your photos is that the gin pole does not appear to have a positive attachment point. This should be remedied, IMO. Unless the gin pole is longer than the distance from the mast to the forward pulling point, there will come a point at which the gin pole will fall out of position, possibly damaging the deck or smacking a crew member. There does not appear to be enough room on the tabernacle (mast step bracket) to do this, so the only thing I can come up with is attaching bent straps on either side of the base of the gin pole creating a Y-shaped yoke that would attach to the mast with a bolt passing through a hole drilled high enough to stay clear of the tabernacle. This would also mean the rope being used to raise the mast would have to be attached so that it did not fall free from the upper end of the gin pole, which could be done any number of ways. I suppose you could have a crew member catch the pole when it was no longer in play, but that risks putting a crew member in harm's way and makes it a 2-person task by necessity.

As for your son's future shenanigans, I say taking a woman out sailing is a great litmus test. There is a lot of give-and-take with sailing, and a woman's ability and willingness to deal with that will reveal a lot about her character. Tell him I said so.

Why thank you. I had all of the issues you mentioned here. There are now all gone.
The attachment points for baby stays can be anywhere so long as you construct the pivot harness correctly.

The system I have devised works so slick that my wife has safely put up and taken down the mast ALONE, while on the water....and my current mast weighs about 3 times what the stock mast did. She did this without being asked she was so confident in it. I. was. amazed....when I woke up.

stickinthemud57 · Feb 3, 2022

Well, Topcat, I would say you have a keeper there. Congrats!

stickinthemud57 · Feb 3, 2022

While I prefer to raise and lower the mast on the trailer, I do think it is important to have a way to do it on the water, too, for a number of reasons. The block and tackle and whisker pole are stowed onboard should that ever become necessary, and the support yoke stays on. Doubles as a camera mount and a good place to hang wet towels, etc.

Thanks for jumping in, Topcat. I get into a certain way of thinking about "best" solutions, so it's good to see those that differ and how they address broader concerns and situations.

Keep us posted, and have fun with it!

patrickfarley · Feb 3, 2022

Mass raised and ready to go 38 minute from arrival time at water. I'm located at Aqualand Marina on Lake Lanier. I take four trips a year down to Florida on the Gulf of Mexico. The motor rides in the back of the suburban.
I raise the mast while I am on the water.
1. Install outboard.
2. Remove all lines except the bowline.
3. Launch boat and tied to the dock or anchor it on shore.
4. Untie the mast.Touch and hold a clip to pin it.
5. Install the mass support on the stern of the boat.
6. Roll the mast back and insert the bolt at the base of the mast.
7. Install the masked raising equipment. the masked racing equipment are two 2x4s a locking pulley system and pre-measured lines to the bowel and a slightly too long jib line. it is too long to allow the mass raising system to work properly.
8. Check all lines and connections to see that they are clear.
9. Raise the mast. if anything gets Tangled or jammed lock the pulley get rid of the tangle and continue the raise of the mast.
10. Lock down the mast to the Bow.
11. Detach and remove the main sail raising mechanism. place it on the trailer if it's not going to be used.
12. Put the Bimini on top of the cockpit so it has a safe place to sit
13. Install the rudder.
14. Take the gas tank out of the cockpit and put it in the stern. while doing this remove the mass support from the stern.
15. Install Bimini.
16. Install navigation unit.
17. Load gear and make sure the suburban is locked.

I like doing it on the water in case I fall. If I fall on the water I can swim. I also wear a self inflating life vest while setting up.
The mast raising system keeps the mast stable as it is raised. I have raised the mast on windy days and had fast speedboats go by as I am raising the mast. It just stays centered.
I turn 60 this year. I am not old. Now that I have a procedure I can set up the boat faster than I could in my 40's. Leaving in 38 minutes leaves me tired but it is nice to be sailing.
The mast raising unit is normally put in the suburban.
I have been thinking about taking it with me to lower the mast when I want to go under a bridge and not wait for the right time.
My dingy is a canoe. It allows me to fish and reach areas that the sailboat cannot go.
If in Sarasota take the canoe trail on Lido Key.
Next trip is on Lake Lanier.
This spring I plan to go to Ft. Walton Beach.
18. leave.

stickinthemud57 · Feb 3, 2022

I wish we got around enough to establish a "routine" for getting the boat on the lake. Maybe after we retire? We have a slip at Scott's Landing in Grapevine, Texas, and thus far have been down to Emerald Point Marina at Lake Travis in Austin and Highport Marina at Lake Texoma. Since they are part of the Safe Harbor family, we get red carpet treatment. Makes the trip so much more pleasant.

LakeShark · Feb 4, 2022

So I thought I would chime in as I sail your exact boat all summer every summer giving teens sailing rides / lessons at a youth camp. We raise the lower the mast on shore with 2 guys in about 10 min or less. One guy pulls on the jib halyard while the other lifts the mast. No blocks, tackle, or other equipment. Once over 45 deg it gets easier and the mast raiser (the one lifting from the cabin top) leans forward on the mast while the bow guy with the halyard attaches the forestay. I say all that knowing that those of us lifting are in decent shape and only in our 40s. I lift the mast on my C22 every time I launch (dozens of times a year as I trailer sail all over the place) alone in about 15 min without any assistance by using the mainsheet as a block and tackle to hold the thing up while I attach the other stays. But I digress.

If raising the mast is a challenge before rigging complex a frames and drilling holes may I suggest something similar to the video below. You or your son could stand in the cockpit and raise the mast as much as possible while the other starts cranking. Your "helper" can walk with the mast moving forward to make sure it does not swing side to side while you crank it up. The board on the front just provides a better lifting point. It’s just another idea.

I understand that most on this forum are big fans of A frames and gin poles but in all my years of raising masts on everything form day sailors to 26 foot plus trailer sailors they seem like a lot of extra cumbersome work for me. My thought may change in the future though as I’m not getting any younger that’s for sure.

Once you get the bugs out of the mast raising the boat is a fun boat. Light and has a lot of initial heel but stiffens up well. It has a cockpit that is gigantic and holds a ton of people. I have easily sailed with 6-8 teens onboard in lighter winds (5-6) in a good breeze) and had over 12 on board for motoring to watch fireworks for the 4th. Never a problem with stability, weight, or space. It’s not the prettiest boat I have sailed over the years. However as far as a boat to learn on and grow with you; it’s a real winner in my opinion.

Another idea:

How I raise my mast:

NDIT: Please note the winch used on the video is a break wench available at harbor freight or other suppliers. It is not a standard trailer winch so that the mast cannot be dropped (like your keel winch). The man who came up with the idea has raced Catalinas before and has lifted the mast many times.

stickinthemud57 · Feb 4, 2022

I like both of the above approaches for their utter simplicity. Removing the gin pole from the equation eliminates the problem associated with its tendency to fall to one side or the other. Standing at the mast in the process keeps it from falling one way or another, and as mentioned in the second video, once the mast approached upright, the stays take over that responsibility.

I like the mast winch for the positive control it gives, but either it stays on all the time or it has to be installed and removed, which in itself does not look like a big deal. I like using the mainsheet block and tackle because I like the idea of having it do double duty.

Great videos, both!

Tedd · Feb 5, 2022

MacBeane said:
Okay, we've made progress getting the mast to go up... But then it tips to starboard and falls onto the garage.

On my Mac 26S I made baby stays out of chain, which solved the problem of rope baby stays stretching. The chain was anchored to a tube that I added between the stanchions, with a pivot that was positioned so that it was on the pivot axis of the mast. That way, baby stay tension remained fairly constant as the mast went up and down. (I actually tuned it so that the tension decreased slightly as the mast went up and increased slightly as it came down.)
I just noticed that you can also see my gin pole in the photo of the baby stays. I don't know what the Venture mast foot bracket is like, but the 26S bracket has a pair of holes at the front that aren't used for anything else, so that's where I attached my gin pole.

Tedd · Feb 5, 2022

Hi @MacBeane ,

I see from the photos that the Venture has walkarounds, which the 26S lacks, so my method of putting an anchor point for the baby stays down low on the stanchions isn't going to work for you. But you might be able to use a system similar to this one, where the baby stay pivot point is at the end of a chain or cable running from the bottom of each stanchion. Anything to get the pivots for the baby stays on the same axis as the mast pivot.

Tsatzsue · Feb 17, 2022

I used the 26M set up as my example for the system I made for my V25. The baby stays are not in line with the height of the mast step. That said I do not attach them to the mast but instead to the gin pole line about 8 inches from the mast on a the loop attached to the mast. That way as the mast goes up and the geometry changes the lines automatically adjust to the difference. Problem solved. It took me years to finally figure this out. Once I did the loop and attached the stays there the rig is stable all the way up. I used the 26M manual from this site. I just got an M and i love the brake winch. Worth the extra $$. My V25 set up was a plain winch and has bitten me a couple times.

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