mast raising

[MacBeane]

Hi,
My son wants learn how to sail and since we're currently landlocked I purchased a trailer sailer - MacGregor Venture 24. Today we unsuccessfully tried to raise the mast. It has something called a Johnson Lever, I think and the backstay setup is a mystery. I think a gin-pole setup is in order, likely using the boom. Suggestions appreciated.
Thanks!

 

[Tally Ho]

I think your Johnson lever is also known as a highfield lever. It is used to tension or remove tension from the head stay.

Yes, you most likely need a gin pole setup to help raise the mast, unless you can man-handle it with a few helpers.

There are lots of examples on YouTube…

Here Is one…

 

[MacBeane]

Thanks! You're correct about the lever, and I've figured out how it works. I am working with my 14yr old to raise it and I'm certainly no Arnold Schwarzenegger so I'm planning on using the boom as a gin pole. the shrouds are behind the mast swept back so I think we don't have to worry about the backstay, which is still mysterious with a triangle plate and such.
Thanks for the response!
Marc

 

[Tally Ho]

I didn’t think MacGregor used a split backstay, but is it possible that the “triangle” is part of a split backstay?




Greg

 

[stickinthemud57]

Curious as to what, exactly, you are having problems with.

Were you able to raise the mast to its vertical position? If so, were you encountering problems fastening or tightening rigging?

I have a 17-foot Hunter that I can step the mast on easily without mechanical aid. A 24' boat is going to need at least two reasonably strong men or some kind of mechanical aid, with a gin pole being an integral part.

My MacGregor 26s is equipped with a gin pole and block-and-tackle rig, but I have opted instead to use the gin pole and the trailer's winch as in this mod: Macgregor 26S Owner Modifications and Upgrades

Stepping the mast can be done using muscle power, but it would be at least a two-man process.

Step one - make sure that all stays except the forestay are fully attached.

Step two - Making sure the mast is firmly attached at the tabernacle, two people would lift the the back section of the mast, walking forward until the mast is in a vertical position with the backstay taut.

Step three - Once the mast is vertical, one person should hold the mast in place while the other attaches the forestay and tensions it using the Johnson Lever. If needed, the topping lift can be used to draw the mast forward while attaching the forestay.

Adjust any stays that are not taut. No need to make them piano-string tight.

Unstepping is simply a reverse of this process.

Pointer - stay away from "quick-release" pins for fastening stays. Failure could have catastrophic results.

Hope this helps.

 

[MacBeane]

Great info! I looked at your trailer winch mod, and coincidentally earlier today I was eyeing my trailer winch thinking about a similar use. I was thinking of running it through very large snatch blocks, that I have, to create a fair lead to the gin pole. Your system is easy to build and simple to use. Nice job.

I like your checklist and plan to use it. Thanks for the response I really appreciate it!

Best,
Marc

 

[stickinthemud57]

You are very welcome - glad to be of help.

Raising the mast is a pretty common-sense process. The main thing is to go slow, double and triple check, and never let yourself or your assistant work in an area where sudden failure of a rope or stay would put them in danger. This is one of the reasons I like my winch arrangement.

 

[Tsatzsue]

I did it by hand for years. Stood it up and used the jib halyard to tie it off after walking to the bow. It was not the best. Something always got caught or a shroud had a twist at the end. PIA. No baby stays either. Now that I have a VHF antenna, Mast head light, Windex, furler, genoa and sock on it it is much heavier. I finally copied one from the 26M manual. The way they have the baby stay attach point allows for the set up to adjust to the different angles as the mast comes up. I would replace my standard winch for a brake winch If I was going to keep the boat. I always felt like I was raising the flag at Iwo Jima!! Just got an M and it has the stock set up.

 

[MacBeane]

Curious as to what, exactly, you are having problems with.

Were you able to raise the mast to its vertical position? If so, were you encountering problems fastening or tightening rigging?

I have a 17-foot Hunter that I can step the mast on easily without mechanical aid. A 24' boat is going to need at least two reasonably strong men or some kind of mechanical aid, with a gin pole being an integral part.

My MacGregor 26s is equipped with a gin pole and block-and-tackle rig, but I have opted instead to use the gin pole and the trailer's winch as in this mod: Macgregor 26S Owner Modifications and Upgrades

Stepping the mast can be done using muscle power, but it would be at least a two-man process.

Step one - make sure that all stays except the forestay are fully attached.

Step two - Making sure the mast is firmly attached at the tabernacle, two people would lift the the back section of the mast, walking forward until the mast is in a vertical position with the backstay taut.

Step three - Once the mast is vertical, one person should hold the mast in place while the other attaches the forestay and tensions it using the Johnson Lever. If needed, the topping lift can be used to draw the mast forward while attaching the forestay.

Adjust any stays that are not taut. No need to make them piano-string tight.

Unstepping is simply a reverse of this process.

Pointer - stay away from "quick-release" pins for fastening stays. Failure could have catastrophic results.

Hope this helps.

Hi,
Okay, we've made progress getting the mast to go up... But then it tips to starboard and falls onto the garage. We're obviously missing something important. The base of the mast where the bolt goes through the mast and connects to the ears has flared outward from the mast tipping. We've tried running jib halyards to the stanchions, brute force trying to hold the main halyard (of course if you pull it from stb it just starts heading to port) and we've tried getting the gin pole to remain centered, which it doesn't. I really wish the po gave us just one demo or I've at least raised a mast on something bigger than a sailing dinghy prior. All my previous vessels had fixed masts, so when the time came to unstep/step that was thr job of the friendly crane operator. Kinda frustrated at this point, hoping we've just missed an easy part that any trailer sailor would know. I'll try to attach pics.
Thanks in advance for any help,
Mac

 

[stickinthemud57]

The key to stepping a mast without the use of brute force is baby stays. These are short stays that mount at or very near the same level and fore-aft positioning as the mast step (AKA tabernacle). Their sole purpose is to provide side-to-side stability which, as you pointed out, the gin pole does not.

You are trying to accomplish stabilization using ropes attached to the stanchions and gin pole (third picture). The reason this is not working is that you are not applying the stabilization where most needed: the mast. I use a gin pole to raise my mast as well, but the gin pole needs no stabilization since this is provided by the baby stays at the mast. Such an arrangement is depicted in the attached photo. Any stabilization method should meet the following criteria:

1. The stays should be of material with very little "give". Stainless steel cable is the material of choice, although its possible Dyneema rope would work, given its low stretch characteristics. The mast doesn't create much side-to-side force as long as it is upright (and it's not too windy).
2. The stays should be solidly mounted at the mast so they do not slip. Same reason as the above criteria.
3. The stays should be solidly mounted on the same surface the mast rests on, and each perpendicular to the pivot point at the mast step. This way they maintain the same tension as the mast tilts from its horizontal to it vertical position.

The attached photo from the MacGregor 26 manual shows a typical baby stay configuration. This view is looking aft. You can see the gin pole in the foreground, not raised to it operating position. On my boat, the stays are stainless steel cable, and are attached to a bolt running through the mast and purpose-made brackets at the deck.

If you decide to retrofit your boat in this manner, be sure that you find solid material to mount the fittings at the deck. Screws are not good enough. Bolts (at least two per mount, preferably four), properly backed with metal plate or oversized washers are the only acceptable fasteners.

Whatever force multiplier you use (block and tackle, winch, etc.) never allow yourself or crew to be under the an unsupported mast, lest failure of a knot or connector result in the whole mess crashing down on someone's head. If it falls, let it fall. 'Nuff said.

Hope this helps. Let me know if any of this needs clarification.

 

[MacBeane]

Okay thanks! That really helped a lot. Right now I'm running the tie-down straps to the trailer, and they're getting banjo-tight as the mast is coming up (see pic). The mast Is staying centered, tg. I'm assuming we just need to keep slacking the straps little by little until the shrouds take the load?
Thanks again!

 

[stickinthemud57]

That would be one way to do it, but if you plan to do this a lot I think it would be worth doing a "proper" retrofit like what you see in the picture. You could start with the baby stays offered by BWY: MAST RAISING SYSTEM, SIDE SUPPORT WIRE, M19, 26C, 26X. They attach to these brackets: MAST RAISING SYSTEM, ANGLE BRACKETS, EACH, which in turn slip under these straps: MAST RAISING SYSTEM, FLAT DECK STRAP + HARDWARE. That way you don't have any eyebolts sticking up on the deck to trip over.

Also needed will be a bolt (at least 1/4", I would say) long enough to pass through the mast. Preferably stainless steel.

 

[MacBeane]

Yes, that setup is better, and reasonably priced.
Thanks for the links.

 

[MacBeane]

I'm wondering where to attach the deck hardware and the bolt through the mast for the baby stays. There's some old jib sheet fairlead hardware clogging up the coachroof, perhaps I should remove it.

 

[stickinthemud57]

IMO, those fairleads are too far aft to be an appropriate attachment point. If the stays were tight enough at the beginning of the process, they would soon become too tight and prevent the mast being raised any further.

The attachment points should be as close to a 90-degree angle to the pivot point at the base of the mast, and as close to the level of that pivot point as possible. In your case, a position just inboard or outboard of the fore end of the halyard pulley blocks would be where I would be considering placement. This might be a tad tricky with cables, as it looks like the vertical pivot point at the mast will drop a few inches once it gets fully upright, so the ideal length of the stays will vary

Were it my project, I would do the following: Order the deck straps and mounting brackets, two turnbuckles (or stay adjusters), and an appropriate amount of Dyneema rope and make your own support lines. This way your mounting position can be determined by your preference rather than the length of the pre-made cables. I would mount the deck straps outboard of the halyard pulleys for maximum stability. Make loops in the rope by proper knots, splicing, or some other reliable means, and use the turnbuckles or adjusters to fine-tune the length. You want them to be as taught as possible without impeding the travel of the mast from its horizontal to vertical posistion.

It does not have to be Dyneema rope, but I recently used some to replace my lifelines and I think the stuff is great. Extremely strong, with very little stretch. I read that it is commonly being used as rigging replacement.

Hope this is helpful. Again, keep yourself and crew away from the "danger zone". This would be any point aft of the mast. You just don't when a knot, rope, or other means of attachment might fail.

 

[MacBeane]

That all sounds like a good approach. The "appropriate" amount of Dyneema (or wire) would correspond to how far up the mast the throughbolt and ears are placed. The mast is 28', and I've seen posts saying the top of the baby stay should attach about 5-6' up. Sound correct? Also, you are correct in seeing that the mast will rotate and then lower a couple of inches more or less to get direct transfer of effort to the compression post below. The PO had the wires running out of the bottom of the mast, not ideal, and I'll likely modify that to exit the wires maybe 8" up through a watertight connector.

Thanks for all your great help.

Next mystery is to figure out the backstay mainsheet setup. I see no strong attachment points on the transom for a backstay, which seems to have a triangle plate and a pigtail (for the boom?) there's a padeye center-port on the transom that's loose as heck so it needs to be fixed/replaced or I would need to attach a proper metal strap and throughbolt it. I must say, a simple old boat that I thought my son and I could sail on the local lake has turned into quite a project for this old man.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Look at it as an opportunity. Your son will learn a lot about overcoming obstacles in this process, and he will know a lot more about how a boat works after he has done some work on a boat.

5 or 6 feet up the mast sounds about right. It should be low enough that you can reach the through-bolt so you can detach the stays, but high enough to provide stability.

Yes, I recall seeing that photo with the wires and thinking that could cause problems. I think re-routing them is a good idea.

I am having a devil of a time finding documentation for your boat, but it looks like the pad eye at the back would be a logical place to attach a backstay, which could be tightened using a block and tackle arrangement. This is how it is done on my MacGregor 26, and the parts list for the Venture 24 shows that kind of rig.

I can't tell from your photos whether your main sheet attaches in the cockpit or at the transom. An overhead view of the transom and the cockpit might help me figure that out.

If you can establish communication with Todd McChesney at Blue Water Yachts (www.bwyachts.com), he can help get you on the right track. With this boat, I am doing a fair amount of guesswork.

 

[stickinthemud57]

BTW, you do want to have adjustment for the backstay tension. With a fractional rig it allows you to bend the mast, altering the shape of the mainsail, which can help make the boat more manageable in higher winds.

 

[MacBeane]

I will contact Todd McChesney, he sounds like the Mac guru. Kinda like the Bud Taplin for Westsails.
Yes, I want to be able to adjust the backstay my first vessel in the 90s was a fractional rig with substantial rake, a J-29. I remember it made quite a difference on the sometimes challenging conditions in SF Bay.

There's a dirth of info and pics for my V24, no surprise considering the age of the vessel, so the value of this site and forum is invaluable. Can't thank you enough. BTW, crawling around a few minutes ago doing boat yoga I found the hull number drilled into the inboard glass under the cockpit, 627.

 

[stickinthemud57]

Boat yoga. LOL.

Pay dirt! This link contains a photo that shows the backstay arrangement, which appears to utilize the pulleys on the gunwales at either side of the transom:

http://photos.mostsailboats.org/35214/1973-MacGregor-Venture-2-24_8648_1

Also visible in this photo:

http://photos.mostsailboats.org/1973/m/1973-MacGregor-Venture-2-24_8648_2.jpg

This photo shows the mainsheet tackle attached to a rail at the transom. In your case, it would make sense for it to attach to that pad eye.

http://photos.mostsailboats.org/35216/1973-MacGregor-Venture-2-24_8648_3

As for the exact manner of rigging the backstay tensioner, I don't have any experience with your kind of rig. I'll make a mental note to look around the next time I am at the marina.