Mandates

[Dave D, '94 H26]

oh, and another thing

for those of us who like to complain about how crappy everyone ELSE drives, in 1997 as part of a national poll the NTSA found that 78% of licensed drivers rate themselves as above average!

 

[Maine Sail]

Honestly...

I have honestly been dead set against any sort of licensing for as long as I can remember but in recent years I am beginning to thing differently. In the old days you were taught proper methods & techniques by your elders who actually KNEW something! These days with the advent of plotters and "windlasses" that do all the work for you those that actually "know something" are far and few between and their LACK of knowledge is what will be passed down to the next generation....

I'm more for a mandatory course for power driven vessels with HP ratings over 15hp than I am for a mandatory sailing course but I do think the time has come for a "basic" course.. This from someone who generally despises government intervention.

Common sense is NOT so common any more!!! Just yesterday in Portland the CG was called by a moronic power boater who blew a radiator hose and thought his boat was on fire!!!!!!! F'ing CLOWN !!

Our taxes paid for this clown to not even know the difference between STEAM and SMOKE!!!!!! OF course we can;t mandate "stupidity" or "common sense" levels but wee do need to do something. Perhaps charging for rescues like a blow radiator hose would teach the idiots... This was clearly a job for Sea-Tow NOT your hard earned tax dollars!!!!

 

[Liam]

Liscense the owner

I am in favor of a required boater training/liscensing program.
I believe that it could be easily administered by requiring that proof of training be required to register or document any vessel.
This would be only for the owner of record but then the owner of record would be completely responsible for the safe opperation of the vessel no matter who was at the helm and whether or not the owner was even aboard the boat.

As for guns, I don't own one or plan to. I respect the individuals constitutional right to own them if they choose to. I believe that the gun industry should be required to conduct and record bullistic testing on all weapons made or sold so that ownership of every weapon can be accurately tracked. That owner should be completely responsible for that weapon and any damage that it does.

 

[Liam]

Maine Sail is right

You cannot mandate common sense.

The "idiots" who cause 90% of the problems probably wouldn't take the courses anyway and if they did it is not likely that they would learn anything!
Education cannot cure stupidity.

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mistress 39]

There will always be those

that will never follow the rules so training, licensing, certification etc will do no good for THEM. There is still the other 90% of the population that would follow the rules IF they knew them.
Same as driving a car. Most of the population follows the rules. They learn to follow them quickly if by no other means than ticketing and threats of losing their license.
I think the course should be the basic rules of the road and responsibilities.
I think it would really be cool for kids to get licensed. They are more likely to follow the rules than adults.
I think one of the things that slow down heavy drinking is if everyone knew that a drunk driving ticket on your boat will go against your drivers license.
Will this work for rvryone? NO, but it will for some.

Tony B

 

[Breaking wind]

Pilot licensing is

extremely hard and complicated, not to mention expensive and full of red tape. the basics needed to be an average fixed gear single engine land airplane private pilot.


First a medical physical and certificate from a designated FAA physician serves as a student pilot certificate, then
succesful completion of a ground school or @ home study course followed by a passing grade on the FAA written exam (where you are video taped and cheating is not an option)
40 Hours minimum total time which include the following:

20 hours flight training which includes:
3 hours night
w/ cross country 100+ NM total
10 TO/Landings to full stop on cross country

3 hours Instrument training
3 hours of cross country flight training with instructor
3 hours preperation for FAA practical test within 60 days prior to it

10 hours of solo flight time, which include:

5 hours of cross country flight time including:
one cross country flight of 150+ miles with one leg <50 miles,
with full stop landings at 3 different airports

3 full stop landings at airport w/ operating control tower

and succesful completion of the FAA practical test AKA the checkride with an FAA examiner.

these are tha bare minimums and not acheivable by anyone unless they had a lot of aviation in the family (daddy has a plane) kind of thing. Most people pass with 60+ hrs, not to mention what you need to do to remain current after you get your ticket. oh and the
flight review every two years by an FAA examiner.

I agree that some regulations would be nice, it's a pandoras box and we all know as soon as 1 regulation is in place it will blow wide open. I could go on for days about the state of the FAA. They are even trying to pass a bill for user fees for pilots every time we use Air traffic control!

My kids all take boater safety, I took it, and my other 1/2 works for the Sheriff and the marine officers are always teaching me and my kids things...not to mention the horror stories. All of the training in the world dosen't seem to matter when you are in a pond full of idiots.

I could agree with a state by state regulation but leave the Feds out of it.

and I am pro gun, I have a Concealed pistol license and I think more people should carry. (again highly regulated) but by the state and not the feds, take a course, provided you have never been a criminal, pass the course, get a permit, repeat every three years....simple and effective.

 

[Breaking wind]

too long

even to long for this forum, I am not typing all that again!

 

[JohnS]

re: too long

So here we've got both extremes of licensing examples:

Drivers licensing, where requirements and enforcement are next to nil, resulting in roads loaded with incompetent drivers

Pilots licensing, where requirements and enforcement are severe, resulting in much fewer idiot pilots (compared to idiot automobile operators), but also much fewer pilots overall, due to the expense and sheer onerousness of the process.

Maybe we could achieve some kind of happy medium.

 

[Ross]

JohnS, At present we have several grades of licence

for commercial transport and buses. I have long advocated a simular system for cars. Horse power and weight limits on drivers licences. I see teenage drivers leaving the local school yards driving 400 horse power 3 ton SUV's and little old ladies driving 90 horse power one ton cars.

Every now and then a big SUV crushes a little car and if the driver was not intoxicated he/she is charged with failure to drive in one lane, or failure to yield right-of-way.

Would drivers be more cautious if they were just as vunerable as everyone else?

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mistress 39]

Ross: good point

Helen drives a small Ford Focus. It doesnt matter which one of us is driving, we are extra cautious when in downtown Houston traffic with large SUV's all around us. I'm sure it works in reverse, where unconsciously, the SUV owners are not as worried. I know some SUV owners that bought SUV's mainly because they stand a better chance in a wreck. There is no doubt in my mind that the boat owners with large engines are not worried about anyone else.
Anyway, society is slowly weeding these people out with the current economy and high gas prices.
Galveston Bay is relatively quiet these days. The go-fast boats are still going fast, but not for the usual sustained time. They actually throttle back every so often.
Back to licensing. I think that somewhere between cars and planes would be a good place. After all, boats dont have lines and lanes to stay within which adds a little more to the risk and responsibility of the driver.

Tony B

 

[Ross]

I have suggested that a conviction for DUI, DWI

or agressive driving result in a restriction on vehicle size to the smallest multi-make models available. i.e. Mini, geo tracker, ford focus, etc. That would still alow transportation but should hace a profound effect on driving habits.

 

[Ctskip]

The problem is in the courts

If the boater got a substantial fine then they would learn that much faster. I have always thought that fines should be on a sliding scale. The more you make the more it cost. Running a stop sign could cost $25 dollars or $25,000. depends on the income of the perpetrator.
Just as committing a crime one can turn in 5 people and get a reduced sentence. What a deal. Courts should be called lets make a deal. No justice being served today. There's just no repercussion for our stupidity. Thats the problem. If you want to teach someone, get into their wallet.
Keep it up,
Ctskip

 

[Bob Poff]

I'm sorry but....

Using the example of safety because a pilot had to take test to get a license dosen't convince me that boater licensing is a cure all. I've seen just too many people who managed to get a pilots license that were just plain dangerous.
Some with poor judgement, others despicable skills, you name it. Spend some time at the airport. You'll see what I mean. And I don't mean ONLY the weekend pilot. I can think of a few professionals with whom I don't like to share a traffic pattern. Let alone ride with.

We used to refer to the Beech Bonanza as the "V Tailed Doctor Killer". Not because it was a bad airplane. But many times you saw someone with a relatively fresh license, who had the money, ramming about at 160-180 knots in a machine they couldn't handle. But they had a license and an instructor had signed them off.

A small example...
The other week I was curious and Googled the tail number of the airplane I learned to fly in almost thirty years ago (N652FL). An NTSB report showed up. Somebody flew it into powerlines while doing a buzz-job. Two fatalities.

It appears that no level of bureaucracy stops the idiot from doing damage.
They seem to find some way to work through the system.

A serious question:
The state of Maryland requires that "All persons born on or after July 1, 1972 must complete a boating safety course." What does the safety record show since the adoption of that rule?
Not trying to be flippant, just asking the question.

 

[Sunbird]

Just enough to be dangerous

I teach basic boating courses in a state (Rhode Island) that has a Mandatory Education Law (All boaters born after 31 DEC 85 as well as ALL PWC operators) exceptions are made for those operating a vessel of under 10 hp, or from out of state, or new state residents (60 days grace). I believe that EVERY boat operator should take a boating course, one that covers the NAVRULES, basic seamanship, marlinspike seamanship (knot tying), how to plot and follow a compass course, basic engine skills, and weather, plus a few more topics. I was one of those young boaters that Maine Sailor mentions, I was taught by my parents the proper way to handle a boat, and backed that up with both the USPS and USCGAUX courses. I started small, in a 6' sailing/rowing dinghy as well as on our family 21' sailboat. I now have a 17' daysailer and sometimes use our 14' powerboat. If something goes wrong, I'm prepared, and don't panic. Due to my upbringing and experience I could handle larger boats as well, but not until I had practiced away from congested waters.
I can relate to the story about that powerboater who called the CG to report that his boat was on fire when it was actually only a burst cooling hose...the same thing happened a few weeks ago off Marion, MA. 30' Sea Ray, grandfather, grandma, and a small child...they panicked and called in a MAYDAY, what a response! The harbor patrol went out (2 boats from one town, possibly 1 or more from second), the Fire dept. went out (1 boat, 1-3 engines on shore), several good samaritans went out, SEATOW responded.......the boat was hauled out asap, but when I saw her minutes after haulout....no a spec of soot anywhere! I found out the next day that it was steam, not fire.

Back to Mandatory Ed, my experience is that when the law requires education, most people do take a class, but I'd say that over 50% of those would have taken the class anyway. Far too many take the shortest course available that meets the requirements....then decide that they now know all that they will ever need to know! WRONG!! I've been boating for 40+ years, I've taken (2) 13 week (2-hours per week)courses, and have been teaching boating safety courses for 17 years........but guess what? I'M STILL LEARNING! I still don't know all that I need to know!
I wish there was a way to get boaters to WANT to take classes, people who take classes because they want to learn more, will be much safer boaters than those who take a class only because the law tells them to (although, I have seen a few that prove to be exceptions and discover how much they didn't know and then seek out more courses!).
Unfortunately, Common Sense isn't common, and despite the government's best intentions, you just can't legislate common sense!

 

[Sunbird]

Constructive advice

"I can't imagine anyone with a boat who doesn't want constructive advice if it is given politely and properly which would help more than some generic training program or license"

Don, I would like to think the same thing.....experience has taught me otherwise!
People today do not appreciate even the most sincerely offered advice, even when it is intended to possibly save their life or property. We have a neighbor who regularly has visitors who bring PWCs with them. Just off the beach where they leave from to go out and ride is a big rock. I place a buoy marking that rock each year to warn of the rock and prevent anyone from hitting it. (I have hit it myself prior to marking it!) Anyway, a few weeks ago I watched them come in and saw them go so close to the buoy (remember, it marks a big rock!) that they almost hit the buoy! I patiently and sincerely pointed out to them that if they really wanted to avoid hitting the rock....it might be a good idea to stay further from the buoy marking the rock (buoy is on a 10' approx rope tied to window weight anchor dropped within inches of the rock). My advice was not exactly welcomed, in fact their response was more than a bit sarcastic. This is just one example of many that I could mention.

OH, did I mention the powerboater who once came into the harbor throwing a big wake...a local USCG Auxiliarist mentioned to him (I happened to be nearby) that the Harbormaster might have a few choice words for him if he had seen him come in (the advice was given very sincerely!). Get this, the powerboater said that he...(are you ready for this?)......he had to come in fast (and with a big wake!) because.......(and I'm NOT KIDDING!)..he was low on fuel and wanted to get in before he ran out. I'm am not joking! He really said that and with a completely straight face!

 

[John]

Scooters

In Ohio you have to get a motorcycle enlydorsement on your driver's license to operate a motor scooter. But, to operate a 75+MPH speedboat you only need the keys. There's something definitely wrong there. I think everyone should be properly trained and licensed.

 

[Jim Seamans]

Hey - Tony B

If you thing that was long, go get your
Commercial,Instrument, Multi-engine rating.

Jim
S/V Java

 

[sailortonyb Allied Mistress 39]

Jim

Ultra-lights are as far as I intend to go with flying.
For those of you that are not familiar with Ultra-light airplanes, they are essentially a hang glider with a snowmobile engine and a prop. Although no license is/was required, you are still RESPONSIBLE for knowing the rules and regs in regards to Unlta-light flying and you defiantely will be held accountable.

Tony B

 

[Nice N Easy]

Liscensing and knowledge

If I believed for a minute that proper education and/or a license would help matters much, if any, I would be all for it. But all this would do is make another hoop for us to jump through. Would be no different than cars, and the idiots who drive them. Point: Coming through Norfolk couple years ago. I got waked something horrible. Threw everything in the boat all over the place. We are talking about in a harbor area. The offender was a Coast Guard Auxilary boat, about a 35 footer. Never slowed down, acknowledged my presence, apologized by radio, nothing. Just roared by, as if I didn't exist. You cannon legislate, you cannot teach, you cannot license, or do anything about stupidity. Maybe make it legal to shoot.

 

[Capt. Ed]

Education Works

As an instructor for a major boating company ,I have seen first hand the results of education . But classroom education does not yield a educated boater . I do classroom and on the water training . The 2.5 hour on the water training really brings home the need for vigilance for safety. Active interaction with stand on vs/ give way ,proper look out and collusion recognition and avoidance really brings home the classroom education . Granted the education I give is not a recognised course but the results I have seen in the past 3 years is encouraging 3800 running hours and no accidents and only one prop hit . I also teach a state course ,it's good but all the classroom course give the new boater a false sense of safety. One thing I have been shocked to learn is that the boater with "assumed " knowledge is the hardest to teach and the women are the easiest to teach and by far the more competent and safer