I am looking into a buying a Beneteau 361 which does NOT have a furling main. Does anyone know.. 1) How easy it is to install in an existing boat? 2)Approx. cost including new sail? Any info. greatly appreciated, thanks.
Mainsail furling
- Thread starter essman
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Did that last year.
Dismasted 1991 Catalina 28 last year. Replaced with in-mast furling. $8,000 for 39ft mast + rigging + boom + solid vang + sail ($1,600) + shipping = 12,000+. As this was a custom mast, it was not easy. Charleston spar supplied the mast and Doyle the sail (with vertical battens).
Dismasted 1991 Catalina 28 last year. Replaced with in-mast furling. $8,000 for 39ft mast + rigging + boom + solid vang + sail ($1,600) + shipping = 12,000+. As this was a custom mast, it was not easy. Charleston spar supplied the mast and Doyle the sail (with vertical battens).
save the $$
save money, keep the spar you have and if you need machanical assistance with the main, install battcars and a power winch. IMHO, mainsail furing is not a good thing. Sail trim is affected, for what, ease of raising a sail?? Working at at Bene dealer, I have seen my share of mainsail furlers get stuck, break and otherwise get very difficult to work. As soon as the furling lines get dirty and old, it becomes tougher and tougher to raise and furl the sail. As soon as the bearings start to go, the same.......let us not even talk about weight where it should NOT be on a sailboat...up above.
save money, keep the spar you have and if you need machanical assistance with the main, install battcars and a power winch. IMHO, mainsail furing is not a good thing. Sail trim is affected, for what, ease of raising a sail?? Working at at Bene dealer, I have seen my share of mainsail furlers get stuck, break and otherwise get very difficult to work. As soon as the furling lines get dirty and old, it becomes tougher and tougher to raise and furl the sail. As soon as the bearings start to go, the same.......let us not even talk about weight where it should NOT be on a sailboat...up above.
$$$$$$$$
I looked into doing this on my 2001-290 and the cost was crazy inboom and add-ons inmast was very costly. I wanted to add other things on the boat also so instead we decided to buy new boat and add all the stuff at the factory. I have been asking about inmast for a few years now and most guys love it and say that they would never have a boat without it. I see more and more inmast boats all the time and when looking at used boats most newer boats have inmast. The cost of adding on a 29 was close to $20,000
I looked into doing this on my 2001-290 and the cost was crazy inboom and add-ons inmast was very costly. I wanted to add other things on the boat also so instead we decided to buy new boat and add all the stuff at the factory. I have been asking about inmast for a few years now and most guys love it and say that they would never have a boat without it. I see more and more inmast boats all the time and when looking at used boats most newer boats have inmast. The cost of adding on a 29 was close to $20,000
Don't do it!
With about 30 - 361's listed on Yachtworld - There has to be one with a furling main that works for you. The 2 or 3,000 cost of moving the boat will be far cheaper than what you are proposing. If you were to change the rig -anything short of changing the mast and boom to original equipment is likely to cause you grief when you go to sell the boat. I think if you look closely at the pricing of the 30 - 361's you'll find that the ones equiped with furling mains hold their resale value and sell a little bit quicker. These are cruising boats and people want creature comforts. By the way I love my furling main (B321).
With about 30 - 361's listed on Yachtworld - There has to be one with a furling main that works for you. The 2 or 3,000 cost of moving the boat will be far cheaper than what you are proposing. If you were to change the rig -anything short of changing the mast and boom to original equipment is likely to cause you grief when you go to sell the boat. I think if you look closely at the pricing of the 30 - 361's you'll find that the ones equiped with furling mains hold their resale value and sell a little bit quicker. These are cruising boats and people want creature comforts. By the way I love my furling main (B321).
Can be a blessing or a curse
I have roller furling main on a '79 Hunter 33. It came on the boat when purchased. There seems to be a lot of negative opinion posted here regarding the roller furling main. I think I can sum it like this: When it's working fine it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but when it screws up on you you're ready to scuttle the whole boat!. Fortunately, in the seven years I've owned the boat it's only messed up about three times. My vote is that it is definately worth it.
I have roller furling main on a '79 Hunter 33. It came on the boat when purchased. There seems to be a lot of negative opinion posted here regarding the roller furling main. I think I can sum it like this: When it's working fine it's the greatest thing since sliced bread, but when it screws up on you you're ready to scuttle the whole boat!. Fortunately, in the seven years I've owned the boat it's only messed up about three times. My vote is that it is definately worth it.
In my opinion
It wouldn't be worth the cost to retrofit your boat with in-mast furling.You'd probably need a new mast, boom, shrouds, fore and back stays (Which could require a new or modified head sail furler), new halyards,furling and outhaul lines and sails. I've probably forgotten some stuff but you get the idea. I don't know anything about the main furlers that you add on behind the mast but I bet they would be cheaper. I have in-mast on my Oceanis 281 and love it. The boat is 10 years old and never had any real problems with it. The boat is on the hard with the mast down this winter and I removed all the in-mast and head sail reels and swivels and sent them to Z spars (the U.S. distributor of my units)for reconditioning. Although they were were working ok, I don't plan to drop the mast again for a very long time and took advantage of my situation for some preventative maintenance. By the way, complete reconditioning which included almost all new parts on both furlers and a new boom car was less than $350. If you want a good estimate of what it would cost, call Julian at U.S. Spars, phone # 386-462-3760 X1.
It wouldn't be worth the cost to retrofit your boat with in-mast furling.You'd probably need a new mast, boom, shrouds, fore and back stays (Which could require a new or modified head sail furler), new halyards,furling and outhaul lines and sails. I've probably forgotten some stuff but you get the idea. I don't know anything about the main furlers that you add on behind the mast but I bet they would be cheaper. I have in-mast on my Oceanis 281 and love it. The boat is 10 years old and never had any real problems with it. The boat is on the hard with the mast down this winter and I removed all the in-mast and head sail reels and swivels and sent them to Z spars (the U.S. distributor of my units)for reconditioning. Although they were were working ok, I don't plan to drop the mast again for a very long time and took advantage of my situation for some preventative maintenance. By the way, complete reconditioning which included almost all new parts on both furlers and a new boom car was less than $350. If you want a good estimate of what it would cost, call Julian at U.S. Spars, phone # 386-462-3760 X1.
The SAD fact with roller furling (of any kind) ...
is that you simply cannot 'shape' the sails ... whats on the roller is what you get for shape. Shape is quite important, especially with respect to luff/halyard/cunningham tension ... and you simply cannot do that (heavy tensioning) with a furler without totally jamming the furler. With roller furling/reefing, even with the most 'cleverly' cut sails, foam luffs, etc. the BEST sail reduction without getting a 'god-awful' (useless) shape is about 30% reduction of sail area. Historically, roller booms were all the 'rage' back in the 60s & 70s until folks quickly found out that they simply 'destroyed' the shape of the sail when partly rolled up .. which left them with an extremely baggy 'overdrafted' shape that only let the boat to heel over and without hardly any forward 'thrust'. If you require any 'modicum' of decent sail shape for a mainsail ... forget about 'roller-furling' and consider slab/jiffy reefing. Yes indeed, slab/jiffy reefing can be a PITA but so can a boat thats roller-reefed and CANT GO ANYWHERE you want to go .... that's a 'safety' issue. ;-)
is that you simply cannot 'shape' the sails ... whats on the roller is what you get for shape. Shape is quite important, especially with respect to luff/halyard/cunningham tension ... and you simply cannot do that (heavy tensioning) with a furler without totally jamming the furler. With roller furling/reefing, even with the most 'cleverly' cut sails, foam luffs, etc. the BEST sail reduction without getting a 'god-awful' (useless) shape is about 30% reduction of sail area. Historically, roller booms were all the 'rage' back in the 60s & 70s until folks quickly found out that they simply 'destroyed' the shape of the sail when partly rolled up .. which left them with an extremely baggy 'overdrafted' shape that only let the boat to heel over and without hardly any forward 'thrust'. If you require any 'modicum' of decent sail shape for a mainsail ... forget about 'roller-furling' and consider slab/jiffy reefing. Yes indeed, slab/jiffy reefing can be a PITA but so can a boat thats roller-reefed and CANT GO ANYWHERE you want to go .... that's a 'safety' issue. ;-)
a function of sail area
I think the value of in-mast furling corresponds to the sail area of the main. Once you hit 500 sq. ft. it's a huge advantage because of the weight of the sail. Under 400 sq. ft. it's probably more trouble than it's worth, especially when the trade-off is loss of performance.
I think the value of in-mast furling corresponds to the sail area of the main. Once you hit 500 sq. ft. it's a huge advantage because of the weight of the sail. Under 400 sq. ft. it's probably more trouble than it's worth, especially when the trade-off is loss of performance.
John - Im gonna disagree with you
1. a sail especially cut for roller furling HAS to have an extremely FLAT shape. A flat shape is ONLY good for 'speed sailing' in FLAT water. 2. You simply cannot 'power-up' a flat cut sail, especially when its partly furled on a roller foil. 3. beating into heavy chop requires a full drafted sail (powered-up shape) .... simply cannot be done with a sail thats cut ... FLAT. Just answer ONE question with regards to in-mast roller furling?: How do you change/increase the luff tension so that the sail attains a 'draft-forward' shape, especially when partly rolled-in? .... I'll answer that one - You cant and thats why most boats with roller furling mains totally furl and ..... TURN ON THE ENGINE because they HAVE to.
1. a sail especially cut for roller furling HAS to have an extremely FLAT shape. A flat shape is ONLY good for 'speed sailing' in FLAT water. 2. You simply cannot 'power-up' a flat cut sail, especially when its partly furled on a roller foil. 3. beating into heavy chop requires a full drafted sail (powered-up shape) .... simply cannot be done with a sail thats cut ... FLAT. Just answer ONE question with regards to in-mast roller furling?: How do you change/increase the luff tension so that the sail attains a 'draft-forward' shape, especially when partly rolled-in? .... I'll answer that one - You cant and thats why most boats with roller furling mains totally furl and ..... TURN ON THE ENGINE because they HAVE to.
Hate to disagree but...
I hate to disagree but I have a 361 with a roller main and powering up in heavy chop is not a problem. Getting any power out of it in light winds is and that's when I kick the iron genny on. I agree that it's difficult to get the best shape out of it and while I love rolling it up from the comfort and safety of the cockpit I'd trade it in a heartbeat on a long trip in lighter air.
I hate to disagree but I have a 361 with a roller main and powering up in heavy chop is not a problem. Getting any power out of it in light winds is and that's when I kick the iron genny on. I agree that it's difficult to get the best shape out of it and while I love rolling it up from the comfort and safety of the cockpit I'd trade it in a heartbeat on a long trip in lighter air.
RichH
I have a roller furling main and I can say that my main has a lot of belly to it...usually too much. I usually have my outhaul as tight as I can get it and that still gives me about a 15-20% draft. The haylard on most roller furlings is as tight as it can get and never messed with. If one does loosen it, then one has to tighten it back up before furling any of it or it will not furl correctly. Therefore, the draft is already foreward. Now I'm not saying a roller furling main is optium, but it is hardly the picture you paint. Case in point, I was doing 7+ knots beating (40 degrees apparent) into 6' hard chop seas 3 weeks ago with 1/3rd of my main furled and a working jib on a fractional rig into 22 knots apparent. Later it got up to 8' seas and 28 knots apparent and I got sick and had to reduce the sail to just 2/3rds of a working jib so the autopilot could handle it but that's another story. Now maybe with a full batten main with two reefs in her, I could get an extra .2 of a knot, but I'm happy with what I have. I'm no racer and don't get me started on that
I have a roller furling main and I can say that my main has a lot of belly to it...usually too much. I usually have my outhaul as tight as I can get it and that still gives me about a 15-20% draft. The haylard on most roller furlings is as tight as it can get and never messed with. If one does loosen it, then one has to tighten it back up before furling any of it or it will not furl correctly. Therefore, the draft is already foreward. Now I'm not saying a roller furling main is optium, but it is hardly the picture you paint. Case in point, I was doing 7+ knots beating (40 degrees apparent) into 6' hard chop seas 3 weeks ago with 1/3rd of my main furled and a working jib on a fractional rig into 22 knots apparent. Later it got up to 8' seas and 28 knots apparent and I got sick and had to reduce the sail to just 2/3rds of a working jib so the autopilot could handle it but that's another story. Now maybe with a full batten main with two reefs in her, I could get an extra .2 of a knot, but I'm happy with what I have. I'm no racer and don't get me started on that
Franklin .... simple question
Where does the position of maximum draft go to ... when you roll-it up on a foil? With a fully stretched-out luff (maybe) your position of max. draft will be at 30-40% aft of the mast. Then roll up 30% SA ... and where did that draft go? (Its now inside the 'roll') ...... and now all you're left flying is a board-flat shape ... but a shape that can be 'terribly wrinkled'. Outhaul tension doesnt make a sail draft-forward or draft-aft ... outhaul only affects the 'depth' or *amount* of draft , not its location on the cord length. To 'move' the draft forward/aft, you need halyard/cunningham tension ... and that simply cannot be done if the luff is inside the roll on a foil !!! best regards RichH.
Where does the position of maximum draft go to ... when you roll-it up on a foil? With a fully stretched-out luff (maybe) your position of max. draft will be at 30-40% aft of the mast. Then roll up 30% SA ... and where did that draft go? (Its now inside the 'roll') ...... and now all you're left flying is a board-flat shape ... but a shape that can be 'terribly wrinkled'. Outhaul tension doesnt make a sail draft-forward or draft-aft ... outhaul only affects the 'depth' or *amount* of draft , not its location on the cord length. To 'move' the draft forward/aft, you need halyard/cunningham tension ... and that simply cannot be done if the luff is inside the roll on a foil !!! best regards RichH.
I have looked into it and it is,,,,,,
EXPENSIVE! Inboom or in Mast installed by a rigger $15 to $20k. To rich for my blood. I have the dutchman flaking system and like it. I only have one reefing point and may install another. I think reefing and ease of use is the biggest advantage for a furling main. Sail performance will suffer with a furling main but I think it worth it. If you want it get a baot with it installed! Wish I did!
EXPENSIVE! Inboom or in Mast installed by a rigger $15 to $20k. To rich for my blood. I have the dutchman flaking system and like it. I only have one reefing point and may install another. I think reefing and ease of use is the biggest advantage for a furling main. Sail performance will suffer with a furling main but I think it worth it. If you want it get a baot with it installed! Wish I did!
This discussion always ends the same way
Those will roller mains like them, those without them generally diss them. It's a bit like very low profile tires on a car - great traction/corning, but will jar your teeth out. It's all about trade offs. I have noticed thought, that my roller main looks a lot like mainsails from more than 40 years ago on all those classic sailboats - inculding racers, before battens took on such an important roll in managing the leech. In other words, they had a bit of negative leech to control the flapping. This sail shape worked fine then as it does now. Franklin's case in point was a good one. By the time you've reduced sail that much you're trying to depower everything anyway, putting draft postion way down on the list of importance. As for Essman's original question, if you're buying a boat and want a roller main, buy it that way.
Those will roller mains like them, those without them generally diss them. It's a bit like very low profile tires on a car - great traction/corning, but will jar your teeth out. It's all about trade offs. I have noticed thought, that my roller main looks a lot like mainsails from more than 40 years ago on all those classic sailboats - inculding racers, before battens took on such an important roll in managing the leech. In other words, they had a bit of negative leech to control the flapping. This sail shape worked fine then as it does now. Franklin's case in point was a good one. By the time you've reduced sail that much you're trying to depower everything anyway, putting draft postion way down on the list of importance. As for Essman's original question, if you're buying a boat and want a roller main, buy it that way.
Love My In-Mast Furling
and wouldn't be without it. I bought my boat in 2005 from what the dealer had in stock and in-mast furling was included. I think it adds greatly to the enjoyment on the water. But then I'm not racing and losing .2-.5 knot doesn't matter to me.
and wouldn't be without it. I bought my boat in 2005 from what the dealer had in stock and in-mast furling was included. I think it adds greatly to the enjoyment on the water. But then I'm not racing and losing .2-.5 knot doesn't matter to me.
User of both
Lady Lillie, a '77 h27, has a halyard hoisted, slab-reefed Doyle main. I'm very happy with it, and enjoy reefing as a seamanlike response to changing conditions. A few years ago, we chartered a Hunter 340 with in mast furling from Canadian Yacht Charters in the North Cahnnel. The Admiral loved the in-mast furling. Yes, it was a lot of grinding, but it was all very doable, and she really liked the easy reefing and the fact that once furled, the main was stored! I liked the same features. As we age, we can both see a furling main as an excellent feature to lengthen our sailing days by keeping us in the cockpit while furling in rough weather. Also, I understand that Hunter makes the roller furling rig taller to make up for the lost roach area. I understand that the sail also has a good shape, but it would be good to have a sail-maker's opinion of this issue. It is true that the increase in weight aloft decreases ultimate stability. But the mass aloft actually increases initial stability by providing increased angular momentum to the rig at rest. That is, rolling and pitching are restrained by having to wave a heavier stick around in the air! David Lady Lillie
Lady Lillie, a '77 h27, has a halyard hoisted, slab-reefed Doyle main. I'm very happy with it, and enjoy reefing as a seamanlike response to changing conditions. A few years ago, we chartered a Hunter 340 with in mast furling from Canadian Yacht Charters in the North Cahnnel. The Admiral loved the in-mast furling. Yes, it was a lot of grinding, but it was all very doable, and she really liked the easy reefing and the fact that once furled, the main was stored! I liked the same features. As we age, we can both see a furling main as an excellent feature to lengthen our sailing days by keeping us in the cockpit while furling in rough weather. Also, I understand that Hunter makes the roller furling rig taller to make up for the lost roach area. I understand that the sail also has a good shape, but it would be good to have a sail-maker's opinion of this issue. It is true that the increase in weight aloft decreases ultimate stability. But the mass aloft actually increases initial stability by providing increased angular momentum to the rig at rest. That is, rolling and pitching are restrained by having to wave a heavier stick around in the air! David Lady Lillie
It's interesting
Those "experts" that diss in-mast furling the loudest are those that don't have it and most likely have never been on a boat that does have it--unless they charter in the BVI where it's on almost all the newer boats. If you race, it is not the way to go but I get pretty tired of folks that make idiotic statements like a boat with a roller reefed main can't go anywhere without the engine. How stupid is that? I haven't seen anyone with a post asking how much it costs to get rid of their in-mast and go back to a traditional rig. I have unlimited ability to size and shape my main and genoa and can keep my small 28.5', 6000# boat pretty well on her feet in 30kt winds. I may not get the perfect shape a racer strives for (and rarely gets) but I'll be single handing in much greater blows than I would with a conventional rig.
Those "experts" that diss in-mast furling the loudest are those that don't have it and most likely have never been on a boat that does have it--unless they charter in the BVI where it's on almost all the newer boats. If you race, it is not the way to go but I get pretty tired of folks that make idiotic statements like a boat with a roller reefed main can't go anywhere without the engine. How stupid is that? I haven't seen anyone with a post asking how much it costs to get rid of their in-mast and go back to a traditional rig. I have unlimited ability to size and shape my main and genoa and can keep my small 28.5', 6000# boat pretty well on her feet in 30kt winds. I may not get the perfect shape a racer strives for (and rarely gets) but I'll be single handing in much greater blows than I would with a conventional rig.
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